General/Other - Ermac Ermac General Discussion Thread

[Dope Dojo]

One blocked ground pound and they can run in and cancel to block.

 

[Inception]

Do you guys think Master of Souls beats Ravenous Mileena.

 

[BoromiRofGeo]

Do you guys think Master of Souls beats Ravenous Mileena.

not entirely sure but i think its 5-5 for me. mileena is tricky.

 

[Afumba]

his ex push should do 10 % dmg instead of 6% i mean its still super punishable.
Or make ex push a little bit safer or even the regular one

I think regular TKP needs to be safer. There is absolute no reason not to. It should be about -15... Kenshi says "hi".
Ex TKP should stay as is in terms of safety but drain more meter. Would make the move more unique than having a damage boost.

I've been using Mystic more recently. I think mystic might be better against sub then MoS. What are your thoughts on that? Way easier to punish clone if done out of a block string. It does suck that sub can just slide if he blocks a tkp, so there is always that to be thinking about. One of the problems that mystic has I found at least, is that like you mentioned, ex push is only 6%... I figured it traded damage for the heal. But the heal is so small, is it really worth the bar?

I use Mystic against Sub since forever as well. As you mentioned i find it way easier to play against the clone.
Not worried about the slide punish... If you play alot of Mystic you have to deal with most ppls beeing able to punish it easy.
On a sidenote.. you might be lucky and the Slide whiffs. Dont know exactly if it is just at the outmost edge of TKP (like a last pixel thing) or maybe with the breathing hitbox or whatever... but it can whiff for some weird-ish reasons.

I've thought this for a long time, I think it's the only MU (and KJ for me too) where I prefer Mystic.

What is your max damage from raw hang though? (my punish for clone/EX bo swing)

Hmm interesting... i prefer Mystic against any type of Kung Lao but Jin.. hmm... not too sold on that
Why not just use ex TKL for ex Bo Swing?
A good and easy combo from raw lift is: TKL, dash, njp, jip~teleport, f21d2, runcancel f4~push or burst. Its 24% with both enders.

 

[Temjiin]

I think regular TKP needs to be safer. There is absolute no reason not to. It should be about -15... Kenshi says "hi".
Ex TKP should stay as is in terms of safety but drain more meter. Would make the move more unique than having a damage boost.



I use Mystic against Sub since forever as well. As you mentioned i find it way easier to play against the clone.
Not worried about the slide punish... If you play alot of Mystic you have to deal with most ppls beeing able to punish it easy.
On a sidenote.. you might be lucky and the Slide whiffs. Dont know exactly if it is just at the outmost edge of TKP (like a last pixel thing) or maybe with the breathing hitbox or whatever... but it can whiff for some weird-ish reasons.


Hmm interesting... i prefer Mystic against any type of Kung Lao but Jin.. hmm... not too sold on that
Why not just use ex TKL for ex Bo Swing?
A good and easy combo from raw lift is: TKL, dash, njp, jip~teleport, f21d2, runcancel f4~push or burst. Its 24% with both enders.

You can't assume meter is always available. When there isn't meter all you can punish with is 4%, which is why I would like to see the move buffed in damage, although can live without it.

Instead of complaining about the meterless damage, I'll switch to Mystic where I can get a reliable 20% roughly.

(I know NJP blows up the bo swing but this can't be done on reaction and is a guess that can backfire on you)

Edit: I'll elaborate on what I personally hate so much about this MU with MOS. I find anti airing KJ to be a risk/reward seriously in his favour. My preferred anti air is always a B3 trip guard but against KJ this gets me killed a lot. D2 mistimed is also a bad time. D3 doesn't usually low profile enough to avoid the bow. TKP is one of the best anti airs in the game with an absurd hitbox. I find once I stop him jumping the MU is easier.

When you add to the fact that I need meter to get more than 4% from his EX swing in MOS (it's a fair trade off but meter isn't free, I'd prefer to be able to punish it at any time) it makes more sense to use Mystic for me. I get a reliable punish for his best wakeup and keep him grounded. It's just a personal preference.

 

[zaf]

The thing is even tho i feel the changes i said would fix the move itself, it will not fix the problem that i feel the character has in that variation. Lets take this to the more basic needs of such a move in the grand scheme of things, this move is intended to be a space creator correct? well it performs its function well enouth... but heres the deal in any fighting game ever, the need to create space between you and your opponent has only 1 objective, start a zonning game where your opponent might not have the tools to get in as easily, case and point Kenshi... well Ermac has no such Zooning, they took away his straight fireball to make MOS more unique, sooooo.... if he has no zooning tools why do you need to create such space? there is no reason what so ever... you are actually giving up positioning by doing TKP cause you just gave your opponent enouth space to start a neutral game where you cannot follow up pressure... So like i said before in a game with a run button and characters that teleport TKP is useless with out a zooning tool to complement it...

I really have to agree with this. In MK9, having the fireball made TK push a lot easier to use. If the opponent blocked a fireball from mid to full screen range, they had to respect the follow up push. In this game, he has no such threat to check the person from moving or not. He just has the push now. Which makes it look like more of a punishment tool. From what I have seen from @GGA N1k0lasss, he uses levitate slam and instant air force blast to provoke movement from the opponent in this game. But I do believe that a projectile in mystic would help out a lot more so, then making TK push -15 or something.

Do you guys think Master of Souls beats Ravenous Mileena.

Not really sure at this point. They both get good meterless damage. From what I have seen from mileena players, she gets in the 30% range. While ermac hits 40% on most of his bnbs (38% and 39% with B12 and B3). So he wins in the damage department. In terms of pressure, I believe ermacs is stronger. His 50/50 game is stronger and he also has better stagger pressure from what I have seen Mileena players do. He also wins projectile trades. Her Teleport is punishable. I actually see no reason why ermac wouldn't win this match up or it be 5-5 on paper.

Edit: I'll elaborate on what I personally hate so much about this MU with MOS. I find anti airing KJ to be a risk/reward seriously in his favour. My preferred anti air is always a B3 trip guard but against KJ this gets me killed a lot. D2 mistimed is also a bad time. D3 doesn't usually low profile enough to avoid the bow. TKP is one of the best anti airs in the game with an absurd hitbox. I find once I stop him jumping the MU is easier.

Try to use D4 to punish kung jin jump ins. Works pretty well actually.

 

[Afumba]

The thing is even tho i feel the changes i said would fix the move itself, it will not fix the problem that i feel the character has in that variation. Lets take this to the more basic needs of such a move in the grand scheme of things, this move is intended to be a space creator correct? well it performs its function well enouth... but heres the deal in any fighting game ever, the need to create space between you and your opponent has only 1 objective, start a zonning game where your opponent might not have the tools to get in as easily, case and point Kenshi... well Ermac has no such Zooning, they took away his straight fireball to make MOS more unique, sooooo.... if he has no zooning tools why do you need to create such space? there is no reason what so ever... you are actually giving up positioning by doing TKP cause you just gave your opponent enouth space to start a neutral game where you cannot follow up pressure... So like i said before in a game with a run button and characters that teleport TKP is useless with out a zooning tool to complement it...

To address your zoning topic... while i understand your point i dont think thats all there is. Ermac wouldnt need a projectile to make it work. If we assume TKP would be safer, lets say -15, than he could play a spacecontrol oriented game at about 3/4 screen. You could check with TKP and you still have access to your own teleport & hover shennanigans. Ermac has access to run as well not just the enemy... so from tkp range its an easy run in to pressure a more cautious opponent. Its not like run is just to use for his opponents you know Further Ermacs up close game is good enough what pressure goes, way better than in MK9, so its not that the opponent can disregard it.
At -15 TKP is semi-safe from max range. If your opponent runs in now you can block or send them back out with ex tkp/ex burst. And with a slight buff to ex tkp (either damage or more meter drain) you really dont need a projectile. Full screen shoto isnt gonna do anything for you... especially if you get a slow ass projectile like SoulBall or like the stuff tremor has
I mean i am all up for a projectile like BS Shinnok... but what are the chances that the projectile is gonna be that good?

 

[Afumba]

You can't assume meter is always available. When there isn't meter all you can punish with is 4%, which is why I would like to see the move buffed in damage, although can live without it.

Instead of complaining about the meterless damage, I'll switch to Mystic where I can get a reliable 20% roughly.

(I know NJP blows up the bo swing but this can't be done on reaction and is a guess that can backfire on you)

Edit: I'll elaborate on what I personally hate so much about this MU with MOS. I find anti airing KJ to be a risk/reward seriously in his favour. My preferred anti air is always a B3 trip guard but against KJ this gets me killed a lot. D2 mistimed is also a bad time. D3 doesn't usually low profile enough to avoid the bow. TKP is one of the best anti airs in the game with an absurd hitbox. I find once I stop him jumping the MU is easier.

When you add to the fact that I need meter to get more than 4% from his EX swing in MOS (it's a fair trade off but meter isn't free, I'd prefer to be able to punish it at any time) it makes more sense to use Mystic for me. I get a reliable punish for his best wakeup and keep him grounded. It's just a personal preference.

Makes sense from your point of few. Thanks for the feedback.
From my experience i tend to lose out with Mystic alot cuz my damage is just not enough to keep up with his. A few touches and its game. And with all his priorities, his range and easy mode confirms its hard to keep up... at least for me.
Thats why i prefer MoS against Jin.... instant air Soulball is fine enough to catch jumping Jins & if i touch him he pays for it.
On the other hand I am fine with just 4% punish for ex Bo Swing in case i dont have meter which i honestly mostly have in this MU.

 

[Temjiin]

Try to use D4 to punish kung jin jump ins. Works pretty well actually.

Thank you sir, I will give this a try.

On the subject of D4.... I find this to be one of his better mids in neutral. Only -3 and 11f, it's something I'm using more and more. +13 on hit gets you nothing with the pushback but you're still +13. It's just a little advantageous over B1 for me sometimes because it will hit everyone, regardless of small hitbox.

I'd love B1 to be a true mid

 

[zaf]

Thank you sir, I will give this a try.
On the subject of D4.... I find this to be one of his better mids in neutral. Only -3 and 11f, it's something I'm using more and more. +13 on hit gets you nothing with the pushback but you're still +13. It's just a little advantageous over B1 for me sometimes because it will hit everyone, regardless of small hitbox.
I'd love B1 to be a true mid

Instead of d4 in the neutral. Try using F3. Also a mid. Has a little short range but very strong with staggering.
You can do f34 and get it into the opponent's head that they need to block the multiple overheads. Afterwards you can just do things like f3 into grab. F3 into another string. Or you can attempt to be sneaky and do things like F3 into B3. Make them think they need to block overheads and give them a low.

 

[14K]

To address your zoning topic... while i understand your point i dont think thats all there is. Ermac wouldnt need a projectile to make it work. If we assume TKP would be safer, lets say -15, than he could play a spacecontrol oriented game at about 3/4 screen. You could check with TKP and you still have access to your own teleport & hover shennanigans. Ermac has access to run as well not just the enemy... so from tkp range its an easy run in to pressure a more cautious opponent. Its not like run is just to use for his opponents you know Further Ermacs up close game is good enough what pressure goes, way better than in MK9, so its not that the opponent can disregard it.
At -15 TKP is semi-safe from max range. If your opponent runs in now you can block or send them back out with ex tkp/ex burst. And with a slight buff to ex tkp (either damage or more meter drain) you really dont need a projectile. Full screen shoto isnt gonna do anything for you... especially if you get a slow ass projectile like SoulBall or like the stuff tremor has
I mean i am all up for a projectile like BS Shinnok... but what are the chances that the projectile is gonna be that good?

I understand your point Afumba and i love you for it lolol, unfortunally i dunno if i can agree... My character Designer Brain is telling me this is just lazy stuff, and its not only Mystic Ermac, i feel with this variation system, NRS bit more than they could chew, because the need for all 3 variations to be viable is huge, but mid way thru the process they felt it was to much balancing required, so they decided that atleast 1 variation needs to be very solid so they just focus on that, so that the character is atleast usable.. as a character designer and modeller myself i actually believe that at some point in early Ermac development stages, he did have his straight fireball, with the same animation as MOS fireball but without the ability to bind opponents on hit... it makes sense for all variations that Ermac has such a tool, but somewhere along the way it was removed, i cannot fathom why honestly... So if you dissect the character down, specially in mystic, you see that at some point the idea was to use TKP to create space and zone the opponent down, thats why they m ade it that negative, because they wanted ppl to take a risk creating space for zooning, without such zoning tool your risk is not being rewarded at all... by your idea your actually being resource punished for using TKP. So lets see... you use TKP, an extremely punishable move, it connects!!! congrats your read paid off, your reward is extremely low damage and the unability to follow up, along with you having to spend yet another resource, Running, to even catch up to the opponent for non garanteed pressure!?! i mean you see where im going here?..
Lets avaliate the 2nd option: your read pays off yet again, character is full screen, your only ranged move is levitate slam, an extremely slow move that can be teleport punished and on block the opponent can pretty much move in on you for free... so i dunno, seems like not such great options, but lets move on to your last option.
Option 3: again read pays off: enemy is full screen, you do Instant air FB just to get a tiny bit of meter, cool its usefull... but now you are just there playing footsies with your opponent or trying to make yet another TKP read that on a good player will probably not work...

Or instead of all this nonsense that doesnt really make sense, you have a fireball you can follow up with after TKP that will cause the opponent to make a mistake and making a TKP read much easier, not only the fact that some chip damage could happen which is something again in your favor...

 

[Temjiin]

Instead of d4 in the neutral. Try using F3. Also a mid. Has a little short range but very strong with staggering.
You can do f34 and get it into the opponent's head that they need to block the multiple overheads. Afterwards you can just do things like f3 into grab. F3 into another string. Or you can attempt to be sneaky and do things like F3 into B3. Make them think they need to block overheads and give them a low.

I've been doing this for a long time but F3 -6 and I think people are starting to catch on to it. Or I've been using it too much haha

It is great for chewing through armour on wakeup, and one of the strings I use the most. I like how easy F3 is to hit confirm into a combo.

 

[zaf]

I've been doing this for a long time but F3 -6 and I think people are starting to catch on to it. Or I've been using it too much haha

It is great for chewing through armour on wakeup, and one of the strings I use the most. I like how easy F3 is to hit confirm into a combo.

Isnt it only -3 ?

Even if people are catching on to this? What are they doing exactly to blow you up for doing this ?

 

[Temjiin]

Isnt it only -3 ?

Even if people are catching on to this? What are they doing exactly to blow you up for doing this ?

Sorry it is -3, F3 4 is -6. I'm not getting blown up but my pressure is ending from counterpoking. I need to follow up with F4 more or just do a balls out F3 EX lift to really stop a counterpoke game

I'll be honest here, I haven't played much in the last month so some of my ideas for the character might be outdated.

 

[Afumba]

I understand your point Afumba and i love you for it lolol, unfortunally i dunno if i can agree... My character Designer Brain is telling me this is just lazy stuff, and its not only Mystic Ermac, i feel with this variation system, NRS bit more than they could chew, because the need for all 3 variations to be viable is huge, but mid way thru the process they felt it was to much balancing required, so they decided that atleast 1 variation needs to be very solid so they just focus on that, so that the character is atleast usable.. as a character designer and modeller myself i actually believe that at some point in early Ermac development stages, he did have his straight fireball, with the same animation as MOS fireball but without the ability to bind opponents on hit... it makes sense for all variations that Ermac has such a tool, but somewhere along the way it was removed, i cannot fathom why honestly... So if you dissect the character down, specially in mystic, you see that at some point the idea was to use TKP to create space and zone the opponent down, thats why they m ade it that negative, because they wanted ppl to take a risk creating space for zooning, without such zoning tool your risk is not being rewarded at all... by your idea your actually being resource punished for using TKP. So lets see... you use TKP, an extremely punishable move, it connects!!! congrats your read paid off, your reward is extremely low damage and the unability to follow up, along with you having to spend yet another resource, Running, to even catch up to the opponent for non garanteed pressure!?! i mean you see where im going here?..
Lets avaliate the 2nd option: your read pays off yet again, character is full screen, your only ranged move is levitate slam, an extremely slow move that can be teleport punished and on block the opponent can pretty much move in on you for free... so i dunno, seems like not such great options, but lets move on to your last option.
Option 3: again read pays off: enemy is full screen, you do Instant air FB just to get a tiny bit of meter, cool its usefull... but now you are just there playing footsies with your opponent or trying to make yet another TKP read that on a good player will probably not work...

Or instead of all this nonsense that doesnt really make sense, you have a fireball you can follow up with after TKP that will cause the opponent to make a mistake and making a TKP read much easier, not only the fact that some chip damage could happen which is something again in your favor...

Hehe i need to agree with myself... already so many disappointments in this game... cant take more hahaha.

For me its more realistic to assume they did the variation system with the intention to have a better chance of nailing one good variation for each character. "Good" of course meaning something between viable and ok. What they didnt take into consideration was that ppls would treat them as separate characters and wouldnt take a "pick the good variation" as a valid solution. Especially not if other characters have 2-3 good ones. I know i have an asshole attitude against NRS but its their fault i have it atm and i would be happy if proven wrong by them. 3months in still alot of time left to do so.

Yea... bottom line i admit that you are right . Hover stuff is to slow to rely on so a projectile would be helpful. But i will still stick to my "it will work good enough even without one" theory.

You evaluated the TKP wrong though. In my "fantasy" TKP is -15 and therefore not highly punishable anymore . At max and around max range its safe enough against most now. Nobody will be able to run in and combo you from that range. So the opponent has to respect it while approaching you.
Also 10% damage and put the opponent back where he started isnt that bad, especially if you have the lead. Just lay back and enjoy lol
Further you assume i spend a ressource to close in on the enemy but on the other hand you say the enemy has access to run to close in fast... Where is the difference? Both can use run and both dont have a guarantee that it will pay of. Sounds fine to me. Remembder my tkp is -15 i have recovered before he is near me.

Here my thoughts to the options you gave me
Option 1: If the opponent is not a zoner and doesnt have a teleport why would i want to run in? instead of jumping back and stomp/cancel? especially if i have the lifelead why would i put myself at risk if i dont have to? If he is a teleporter i am aware of that and i can bait it.

Option 2: And what if the opponent doesnt have a teleport? And assuming he blocked it or avoided it doesnt mean its neccessary a punish.

Option 3: Whats wrong with playing footsies?

Lets take a look at the projectile theory without touching TKP. So TKP is still -25 and you have a projectile like SoulBall (same properties without shackle)
Whats your options? Just TKP is punishable by most characters and variations. Which gives the enemy momentum, leaves you grounded and the enemy can chose to pressure you on wake up, and if you are unlucky a full combo before all that. If you are fullscreen and throw a projectile someone with a teleport can punish it on reaction. Which results in the same options as before for your opponent. Further he could just jump your projectile and would still be able to block you TKP after landing which would result again in the same outcome as before. He could make a read and armor through it as well but why would he? Its -25 if he blocks it and he by blocking he is also safe against a follow up like teleport. He could also have a better projectile and trade in his favor. If its not fullscreen he could react to your projectile with armor and punish the projectile right there.
Lets now assume the enemy blocks your projectile... at max tkp range you get punished like TKP itself would as you projectile is -23 on block.
If you do it from further away your enemy can close in and you are now playing footsies.

So at the end... as said... a projectile would a great addition but if TKP stays that negative than it has to be a hell of a projectile. I would take a better TKP over a projectile like Soulball any day. I think it would do more.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

I agree Ermac needs his fucking variations fixed

 

[smokey]

Hehe i need to agree with myself... already so many disappointments in this game... cant take more hahaha.

For me its more realistic to assume they did the variation system with the intention to have a better chance of nailing one good variation for each character. "Good" of course meaning something between viable and ok. What they didnt take into consideration was that ppls would treat them as separate characters and wouldnt take a "pick the good variation" as a valid solution. Especially not if other characters have 2-3 good ones. I know i have an asshole attitude against NRS but its their fault i have it atm and i would be happy if proven wrong by them. 3months in still alot of time left to do so.

Yea... bottom line i admit that you are right . Hover stuff is to slow to rely on so a projectile would be helpful. But i will still stick to my "it will work good enough even without one" theory.

You evaluated the TKP wrong though. In my "fantasy" TKP is -15 and therefore not highly punishable anymore . At max and around max range its safe enough against most now. Nobody will be able to run in and combo you from that range. So the opponent has to respect it while approaching you.
Also 10% damage and put the opponent back where he started isnt that bad, especially if you have the lead. Just lay back and enjoy lol
Further you assume i spend a ressource to close in on the enemy but on the other hand you say the enemy has access to run to close in fast... Where is the difference? Both can use run and both dont have a guarantee that it will pay of. Sounds fine to me. Remembder my tkp is -15 i have recovered before he is near me.

Here my thoughts to the options you gave me
Option 1: If the opponent is not a zoner and doesnt have a teleport why would i want to run in? instead of jumping back and stomp/cancel? especially if i have the lifelead why would i put myself at risk if i dont have to? If he is a teleporter i am aware of that and i can bait it.

Option 2: And what if the opponent doesnt have a teleport? And assuming he blocked it or avoided it doesnt mean its neccessary a punish.

Option 3: Whats wrong with playing footsies?

Lets take a look at the projectile theory without touching TKP. So TKP is still -25 and you have a projectile like SoulBall (same properties without shackle)
Whats your options? Just TKP is punishable by most characters and variations. Which gives the enemy momentum, leaves you grounded and the enemy can chose to pressure you on wake up, and if you are unlucky a full combo before all that. If you are fullscreen and throw a projectile someone with a teleport can punish it on reaction. Which results in the same options as before for your opponent. Further he could just jump your projectile and would still be able to block you TKP after landing which would result again in the same outcome as before. He could make a read and armor through it as well but why would he? Its -25 if he blocks it and he by blocking he is also safe against a follow up like teleport. He could also have a better projectile and trade in his favor. If its not fullscreen he could react to your projectile with armor and punish the projectile right there.
Lets now assume the enemy blocks your projectile... at max tkp range you get punished like TKP itself would as you projectile is -23 on block.
If you do it from further away your enemy can close in and you are now playing footsies.

So at the end... as said... a projectile would a great addition but if TKP stays that negative than it has to be a hell of a projectile. I would take a better TKP over a projectile like Soulball any day. I think it would do more.

Soulball is only -23 up close or until its traveled a bit. Full screen you can block before the soulball even touches them so its actually a lot safer there and push would likely be a frame trap.

 

[14K]

Hehe i need to agree with myself... already so many disappointments in this game... cant take more hahaha.

For me its more realistic to assume they did the variation system with the intention to have a better chance of nailing one good variation for each character. "Good" of course meaning something between viable and ok. What they didnt take into consideration was that ppls would treat them as separate characters and wouldnt take a "pick the good variation" as a valid solution. Especially not if other characters have 2-3 good ones. I know i have an asshole attitude against NRS but its their fault i have it atm and i would be happy if proven wrong by them. 3months in still alot of time left to do so.

Yea... bottom line i admit that you are right . Hover stuff is to slow to rely on so a projectile would be helpful. But i will still stick to my "it will work good enough even without one" theory.

You evaluated the TKP wrong though. In my "fantasy" TKP is -15 and therefore not highly punishable anymore . At max and around max range its safe enough against most now. Nobody will be able to run in and combo you from that range. So the opponent has to respect it while approaching you.
Also 10% damage and put the opponent back where he started isnt that bad, especially if you have the lead. Just lay back and enjoy lol
Further you assume i spend a ressource to close in on the enemy but on the other hand you say the enemy has access to run to close in fast... Where is the difference? Both can use run and both dont have a guarantee that it will pay of. Sounds fine to me. Remembder my tkp is -15 i have recovered before he is near me.

Here my thoughts to the options you gave me
Option 1: If the opponent is not a zoner and doesnt have a teleport why would i want to run in? instead of jumping back and stomp/cancel? especially if i have the lifelead why would i put myself at risk if i dont have to? If he is a teleporter i am aware of that and i can bait it.

Option 2: And what if the opponent doesnt have a teleport? And assuming he blocked it or avoided it doesnt mean its neccessary a punish.

Option 3: Whats wrong with playing footsies?

Lets take a look at the projectile theory without touching TKP. So TKP is still -25 and you have a projectile like SoulBall (same properties without shackle)
Whats your options? Just TKP is punishable by most characters and variations. Which gives the enemy momentum, leaves you grounded and the enemy can chose to pressure you on wake up, and if you are unlucky a full combo before all that. If you are fullscreen and throw a projectile someone with a teleport can punish it on reaction. Which results in the same options as before for your opponent. Further he could just jump your projectile and would still be able to block you TKP after landing which would result again in the same outcome as before. He could make a read and armor through it as well but why would he? Its -25 if he blocks it and he by blocking he is also safe against a follow up like teleport. He could also have a better projectile and trade in his favor. If its not fullscreen he could react to your projectile with armor and punish the projectile right there.
Lets now assume the enemy blocks your projectile... at max tkp range you get punished like TKP itself would as you projectile is -23 on block.
If you do it from further away your enemy can close in and you are now playing footsies.

So at the end... as said... a projectile would a great addition but if TKP stays that negative than it has to be a hell of a projectile. I would take a better TKP over a projectile like Soulball any day. I think it would do more.

You make some good points, obviously when i mean, toss a fireball, i mean that all the MOS fireball properties will remain, so you can still do insta air fireball to cover more options, on most cases a good insta air fireball will catch jumping/running/standing opponents, if so they would still have to block/low profile it which is still a good thing your gaining meter, possibly frustrating the opponent into a mistake, and possibility of chip dmg. When i mentioned that the idea of TKP was to be a risk reward thing i dont mean that if i where doing the character i would do the same, thats what i believe was their "NRS" idea for the character. i obviously have the same opinion as you, i think TKP should be in the range of -15 -17 maybe, it just feels stupid that its that punishable in the first place. But this is still so very much a mute point considering that i highly doubt anything will be fixed or added, still its good to see everyones opinions, non of the previously mentioned is a direct buff to the character, but more like a fix so that the character/variation works as it should by fighting game standarts...

As for the Variation thing, its an either/or situation, you might be right or i might be, regardless no one wins with both assumptions which is very sad to say...

 

[zaf]

Sorry it is -3, F3 4 is -6. I'm not getting blown up but my pressure is ending from counterpoking. I need to follow up with F4 more or just do a balls out F3 EX lift to really stop a counterpoke game

I'll be honest here, I haven't played much in the last month so some of my ideas for the character might be outdated.

If you are getting counterpoke'd after F3, then you have options
- Complete the full string, F34
- Block to bait the counter poke and then continue to pressure on their negative frames. Or if they use a -10 and up poke, then punish with 222~soulball
- Armor
- Backdash
- Ballsy read with F3~soulball

 

[Afumba]

Soulball is only -23 up close or until its traveled a bit. Full screen you can block before the soulball even touches them so its actually a lot safer there and push would likely be a frame trap.

Yea you are right... didnt think of that during my type madness
But i still think if they jump it they can block in time. Close one... maybe not at fullest screen but at outside TKP they should be able to.

You make some good points, obviously when i mean, toss a fireball, i mean that all the MOS fireball properties will remain, so you can still do insta air fireball to cover more options, on most cases a good insta air fireball will catch jumping/running/standing opponents, if so they would still have to block/low profile it which is still a good thing your gaining meter, possibly frustrating the opponent into a mistake, and possibility of chip dmg. When i mentioned that the idea of TKP was to be a risk reward thing i dont mean that if i where doing the character i would do the same, thats what i believe was their "NRS" idea for the character. i obviously have the same opinion as you, i think TKP should be in the range of -15 -17 maybe, it just feels stupid that its that punishable in the first place. But this is still so very much a mute point considering that i highly doubt anything will be fixed or added, still its good to see everyones opinions, non of the previously mentioned is a direct buff to the character, but more like a fix so that the character/variation works as it should by fighting game standarts...

As for the Variation thing, its an either/or situation, you might be right or i might be, regardless no one wins with both assumptions which is very sad to say...

Oh ok... that changes things a bit. If we assume that you TKP is safer as well than i am totally on board with you lol
I mean ideally i would ofc like to have a safer TKP + a projectile. Gameplay wise its more fluent and works more beneficial. Dont even need an air projectile If you take the air projectile as well than ok.. you bested my "build" entirely hehe
But i cant see them giving him such a projectile (or any projectile) combined with a better TKP and an improvment to ex TKP. And if i have to chose i take my chances with the better TKP over a projectile.

I agree with you on the fixes not buffs thing. Have the same oppinion on that. Should have been there from the start.

Who knows... maybe they screwed up things on purpose... so ppls can discuss

 

[14K]

Yea you are right... didnt think of that during my type madness
But i still think if they jump it they can block in time. Close one... maybe not at fullest screen but at outside TKP they should be able to.



Oh ok... that changes things a bit. If we assume that you TKP is safer as well than i am totally on board with you lol
I mean ideally i would ofc like to have a safer TKP + a projectile. Gameplay wise its more fluent and works more beneficial. Dont even need an air projectile If you take the air projectile as well than ok.. you bested my "build" entirely hehe
But i cant see them giving him such a projectile (or any projectile) combined with a better TKP and an improvment to ex TKP. And if i have to chose i take my chances with the better TKP over a projectile.

I agree with you on the fixes not buffs thing. Have the same oppinion on that. Should have been there from the start.

Who knows... maybe they screwed up things on purpose... so ppls can discuss

Actually you know what, our conversation actually got me thinking, unfortunally i dont have enouth info to fact this claim cause i dont use that variation but im gonna make it anyway, lets imagine for just one sec that Ermac does have this Fireball that we mentioned in all variations... would this make Spectral more viable? i mean flying around tossing fireballs at different heights?! would this even be a smal fix to that variation? cause i honestly just feel that variation is the deep pit where all bad ideas come to die, but would that fireball actually make that variation a tad more viable, atleast in some matchups...?

 

[Afumba]

Actually you know what, our conversation actually got me thinking, unfortunally i dont have enouth info to fact this claim cause i dont use that variation but im gonna make it anyway, lets imagine for just one sec that Ermac does have this Fireball that we mentioned in all variations... would this make Spectral more viable? i mean flying around tossing fireballs at different heights?! would this even be a smal fix to that variation? cause i honestly just feel that variation is the deep pit where all bad ideas come to die, but would that fireball actually make that variation a tad more viable, atleast in some matchups...?

Well it certainly wouldnt make it worse But i dont see how it could improve him that much... maybe if he gets like a pyro tanya treatment and can shoot in all direction while airborne... dunno, i honestly gave up on Spectral & put it were the sun dont shine. He begs for resurrection but NRS isnt listening.

 

[Dope Dojo]

I just played a Tanya in a FT20. That character is, "something else" (Busted AF jk) used Kobu. It felt like I couldn't punish anything she did and just got caught in frame traps all day. Final score was 20-8. She has a wake up reversal overhead & low so I couldn't exactly apply much pressure when he had meter. Her strings chewed through my reversals 9/10 times. I just sort of sat there after some of the matches wondering what the hell they were thinking with this character, and how Ermac could possibly compete with her.

I gave Mystic a go, that did not end well.

 

[methademic]

I just played a Tanya in a FT20. That character is, "something else" (Busted AF jk) used Kobu. It felt like I couldn't punish anything she did and just got caught in frame traps all day. Final score was 20-8. She has a wake up reversal overhead & low so I couldn't exactly apply much pressure when he had meter. Her strings chewed through my reversals 9/10 times. I just sort of sat there after some of the matches wondering what the hell they were thinking with this character, and how Ermac could possibly compete with her.

I gave Mystic a go, that did not end well.

I literally had this same experience today, it was insane once i was in the corner it was basically a done deal

 

[Harlequin969]

For you guys that play Mystic how are you landing any TKPs after uppercut. I have no ideahow to nail the timing on it.