End of 2015 MKX Tier list - UK Edition

[Notez4]

The definition of average has flown over ones head.

 

[PND_Ketchup]

I think the whole Jax placement was kinda bad communcation on my part, when discussing both the characters I play I concluded that Tremor was in a higher tier than Jax but because of Tremors placement Jax got put lower. I think I mention that somewhere in the video but if I didn't that is why.

You did mention it, it's just that nobody is watching the video, which is exactly what I expected.

 

[Akromaniac27]

I'm probably the only MIleena player that agrees with her placement FOR THE MOST PART. She still needs her fixes on her empty frames on her telekick startup and non-active startup frames on air sais and bug removal of Xray missing on hit, but I genuinely think she's up there because everyone in that tier placement, she goes at the very LEAST, even with.

 

[Sultani]

Mileena is too high. It's not even salt. It's not being a sheep. I was one of the first people to even attempt to show people why she was bad to begin with while everyone was freaking out about her damage and cool aesthetics.. I'd like to watch the video when I can to hear the reasoning behind it, since I've actually compared her moveset and corresponding frames with other cast members. I've seen high level footage. Mileena wins ONLY when the opposing player doesn't know the matchup. Too much further explanation will begin to sound like theory fighting, so instead of just saying, "you're wrong," I will instead say that I disagree. I mean, it's been overtly stated from the offset that this is just an opinion.

I don't think it's fair to assume that people who disagree with Mileena's placement are demonstrating a perfunctory response to follow popular opinion; most of us have valid reasons.

 

[Apologia X]

This tier list is (soap bar in my mouth.)

 

[STB Shujinkydink]

Tourney results don't make a character top tier. By that logic quan is garbage and everyone knows that isn't true.

I woke up in a cold sweat sensing this comment

 

[Undeadjim]

who do u think jax loses to that he is where he is?

Jax loosing MU's are kinda mixed between Jax mains I say Sub 6-4, Lao 5.5-4.5, Cage 5.5-4.5, then he has potential other maybe .5 losing MU's but I'm still exploring more.

If you're wondering why I think Tremor is better I just feel although he has his worse MU's he potential wins a lot more than Jax.

 

[SylverRye]

You did mention it, it's just that nobody is watching the video, which is exactly what I expected.

Well im currently at work so i can't watch the video until im off. Im merely looking at the list and just stating my opinion from what i see there. Ill watch it though, im interested in hearing what they feel about the characters

 

[Jolt]

As a Mileena fan and player:

Mileena would be undoubtedly S tier if no one could block.

In that regard, I do understand that there's a surprising amount of downplay. Ultimately, one of my main complaints with the empress (that I absolutely love) boils down to: "I have to make reads noooooooooo" and so I understand why she would be placed so high up. She has good tools, good damage, but the odds are pretty much always against her in this game. That's her issue. In some cases, just to HOPEFULLY get a TURN, she has to lay it all on the line with a roll. Once she's in control, she still isn't oppressive enough to keep the other person from taking a turn back. ESPECIALLY if she doesn't want to commit to the risks.

I'm still trying to get through the whole video admittedly, so I expect something like this post to be said in the Mileena section.

 

[1man3letters]

Jax loosing MU's are kinda mixed between Jax mains I say Sub 6-4, Lao 5.5-4.5, Cage 5.5-4.5, then he has potential other maybe .5 losing MU's but I'm still exploring more.

If you're wondering why I think Tremor is better I just feel although he has his worse MU's he potential wins a lot more than Jax.

id agree that tremor is better than jax also
(i dont play jax obviously while u play both but id still agree on what i know about the char, dont like talking about chars i dont play...except kang, fuck that broken gimp )

 

[Matix218]

Originally I disagreed with Liu Kang, but you sold me on it.

Overall, I agree with the list and all placements. The only thing I would change would be the description of tier b. Those characters have faults but I do not believe any of them are below average.

Well given the vast numerical majority of the cast is placed above B tier that alone means that those characters would be below average when looking at them compared to the rest of this games roster. In this tier list there are 24 characters that have been placed above the B tier (out of 29 total characters in the game) so looking at that it WOULD really man the B tier characters are technically WAY below average if average would be the characters that are around 15th overall

 

[RagingRicans]

Sub zero in S tier is definitely a thing, but I think the reasoning provided was off.


Also if you block a b2 you can punish with armor lol

 

[MajinBerserker]

Think this is the highest I've seen Mileena.

Me, too. Very interested in hearing the discussion.
Kano gets the love he deserves.

 

[SaSSolino]

man, I'm LOVING this podcast!

@Undeadjim's accent is amazing! he sounds so smart all the time...

 

[gam224]

The scene up there is too small to have an accurate tier list.

 

[Sultani]

As a Mileena fan and player:

Mileena would be undoubtedly S tier if no one could block.

In that regard, I do understand that there's a surprising amount of downplay. Ultimately, one of my main complaints with the empress (that I absolutely love) boils down to: "I have to make reads noooooooooo" and so I understand why she would be placed so high up. She has good tools, good damage, but the odds are pretty much always against her in this game. That's her issue. In some cases, just to HOPEFULLY get a TURN, she has to lay it all on the line with a roll. Once she's in control, she still isn't oppressive enough to keep the other person from taking a turn back. ESPECIALLY if she doesn't want to commit to the risks.

I'm still trying to get through the whole video admittedly, so I expect something like this post to be said in the Mileena section.

Yes, but people can block.

It's not only that she has to make reads, it's that NRS tried to incorporate fundemental footsies and whif punish type characters in this game, but some of the characters designed to work this way were not given the toolset required to play like that. There are characters with MUCH better footsie tools than mileena's that also excel at other aspects of the meta that mileena doesn't even have the move set to consider attempting.

The point was brought up by ketchup in this thread that people thought kitana was bad but then she was used at evo by the winner. Interesting that this tournament placement (after she was buffed) would be used to refute claims against mileena's placement, when mileena is, plain as day, placed above characters with a much higher consistency of placing well and even winning tournaments.

There's not much to be gained by trying to convince people that she's not as good as this tier list suggests. Her apparent viability shows it. You can ignore it if you want to.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

As a Mileena fan and player:

Mileena would be undoubtedly S tier if no one could block.

In that regard, I do understand that there's a surprising amount of downplay. Ultimately, one of my main complaints with the empress (that I absolutely love) boils down to: "I have to make reads noooooooooo" and so I understand why she would be placed so high up. She has good tools, good damage, but the odds are pretty much always against her in this game. That's her issue. In some cases, just to HOPEFULLY get a TURN, she has to lay it all on the line with a roll. Once she's in control, she still isn't oppressive enough to keep the other person from taking a turn back. ESPECIALLY if she doesn't want to commit to the risks.

I'm still trying to get through the whole video admittedly, so I expect something like this post to be said in the Mileena section.

She doesn't have to lay anything on the line. Piercing B12 is one of the better strings in this game.

Like we said, Mileena is only as risky as you make her, she has excellent moves for conditioning the opponent, reasonable zoning in her ground sai, counter zoning with ball roll and telekick, or even low sai if she can get under the projectile.

Meterless anti air with ball roll.

She ticks a lot of boxes, and THEN you can add her risky side on top of it in a situation where it make sense.

Oh yeah and also her corner restand game is pretty rediculous too LBSH.

 

[Tweedy]

I think Mileena is the opposite of Jacqui. She's bad in theory, but she actually controls the match very well vs most of the cast.

 

[StiggyWiggs]

Error Black is A tier?? Somebody want to enlighten me? Like am I missing something?

 

[Espio]

My issue is Mileena.

I am not at all sold that she is better than ANYONE in A tiier or even B tier. I would say that not only is Goro and Jacqui better than Mileena, but Ferra/Torr as well.

Roll is unsafe, always on block so it low profiling and what not is good, but it's always a gamble and unlike people like Cage or Kitana who have low profiling normals (some of which launch) and are safe, her low profiling is risky.

Mileena has plus frames, but nobody has to respect them, which is a problem. They're literally plus frames for the sake of plus frames. She has to do risky thing to hopefully condition people to stop poking.

And in terms of zoning, I think the fact that Goro beats Mileena should say a lot about just how "good" her zoning and keep out game actually is. Piercing low said has pretty bad whiff recovery to the point that Goro can punish it on whiff with telestomp.

People mentioned "can't jump against Mileena" which isn't entirely true as many characters have jump kicks that beat roll and on top of that, you're basically saying that she blows up sloppy play, she is a scrub killer and I agree fully with that assessment. If you play on the ground and play fundamentally solid and give her little to work with, she will struggle. Mileena is suffering from the same problem she suffered in MK9 where she was good at blowing up fundamentally weak play so she was touted as better than she actually is overall.


I can list all the pros of all the low tier and downplay their flaws and make them sound really good. I can make any low tier sound good if I do that.

Back 1,2 is really good to be sure, but in the context of her entire tool kit and the rest of the meta game and cast? It's literally just "decent".

You don't have to play risky, but it's important to keep in mind that she has so many holes in a lot of her strings like forward 4,4 and you can't just stagger the string and it's fine cause if you do that, you're at full combo punishable frames. If people know the Mileena match up, blocking her mix ups when she has no meter is easy, it's the threat of ex roll that gives her mix ups the real juice, but again, unsafe and requires meter to get going. Her pokes in general are weak or risky.

She was built around roll and considering how unsafe it is, it almost assuredly makes her a weaker character than she could have been if she wasn't built around that core move.

There's so many other things I could say about why Mileena should be in the same tier or lower than the current B tier, but I'll just leave it at that.




On the bright side, I will agree on one thing and say that the only thing holding Goro back at the moment is movement.

I wouldn't say he cannot deal with zoning at all though because there are several people who zone well that he goes even with overall.

 

[TheGabStandard]

Interesting list. I haven't got around to watching the video yet as quite busy but looking at that list I do not see how Mileena can be grouped with those characters in A+ looking at the stuff that they have.

I am definitely curious to hearing the points preseneted in the vid and will probably give more feedback after watching

 

[Afk Skinny]

*Sees Mileena isnt placed in bottom 5

Finally, got damn! I probably wouldnt have her A+ but when I get the chance I'll watch the video

 

[DrFolmer]

Good list. Mileena and Johnny will probably be touchy subjects but all in all good stuff.

 

[Jolt]

She doesn't have to lay anything on the line. Piercing B12 is one of the better strings in this game.

Like we said, Mileena is only as risky as you make her, she has excellent moves for conditioning the opponent, reasonable zoning in her ground sai, counter zoning with ball roll and telekick, or even low sai if she can get under the projectile.

Meterless anti air with ball roll.

She ticks a lot of boxes, and THEN you can add her risky side on top of it in a situation where it make sense.

Oh yeah and also her corner restand game is pretty rediculous too LBSH.

I respect you and I value your opinion, especially since I KNOW I don't have anywhere near the experience that you or the Mileenas that you encounter do, but I am still inclined to disagree.

I 100% agree that she has the tools both to tick boxes, condition, etc. in fact, I agree with nearly everything you have said. But how much time is there to condition in a first to 2? You would know this far better than I do, so I'm legitimately asking.

Even if let's say you HAVE conditioned the opponent, you KNOW that you are going to get this awesome damage from this overhead EX roll (which cost you a bar and usually does less damaging combos than regular roll because of the different gravity). Buuuuuut, you were somehow wrong. They blocked it.

She's a mind-game, I'd never deny that. I'd never downplay that. But even after the conditioning, the odds aren't in her favor. You can't/shouldn't jump against her because she can anti-air like the best of them, but why would you?

B12 is pretty great until you realize she can only enforce it with roll in some MUs (because it isn't a true mid).

Make b12 a true mid, make f4 NOT -30 ON BLOCK AND -5 ON HIT, make low sai get a little more hit advantage so there's a REWARD for risking it for conditioning purchases (because the EX Roll/Low sai 50/50 is asking to die no matter how you do it).

Her frames say nothing but "Hey! Disrespect me!" people just get paralyzed by the options. But are they paralyzed by the options, or are they waiting for her to take that risk to get some decent damage (because no one wants to win by doing 8 throws).

If f4 weren't a complete joke (I know you can do f44 with a gap, or special cancel it) we'd be having a different discussion I'm sure.

I won't lie, I'm probably playing the game wrong. I'm probably arguing the wrong points even lol. But I always love a good discussion. Especially if it can lead me to understanding my character better

 

[PND_Ketchup]

No the match up WATCH THE FIGHT Jesus I'm going to .gif all the unpunished and strings unpunished, you know nothing this proves top players don't mean common sense.

You can say what you want about my outrage, but trust me buddy you will get ALL negative feedback good night I'm going to sleep holy balls lol!.

You're being super aggressive in your salt. Relax.

Take it up with @A F0xy Grampa