Belial
Noob
I read a lot of posts in here with crazy setups and reasons why BG and SG might be viable someday
So I want KK community to give up on them and just focus on War God for the sake of everyone, so that KK sees more crazy setups and more tournament play.
The two things that determine character sucess in FG are ability to force a reaction and ability to punish
1) Ability to force a reaction is a lot of things.
- You character has a good/safe mixup? This means your opponent just cannot allow you to get close and will be throwing things out.
- Does your character has that + on block normal that you can spam over and over again (see pre-patch Kano) until your opponent finally decides to try something
- Do you have a zoning move or far reaching normal that pushes your opponent back, so that he has to take some kind of risk to approach?
- Maybe you have nothing but a string that builds a lot of meter and leaves you safe to try again? Well your opponent definitely doesnt want to block it too often does he?
- Do you have a powerful armor move that keeps your opponent at check all the time, afraid to throw moves out?
Basically do you have ANY means of annoying your opponent?
2) Ability to punish is not just block punishment. Its an ablity to profit from a good read. You want to be able to extract damage from correct guesses and you want that damage to grow with the amount of effort it took to make that read (if you had to take a high risk, reward must be also high). If you block a mixup - you gotta punish. If you read a poke - you want to profit from it too. Did you just backdash to let that swing fly by? Get them before they can block. Do you see them jumping? Please teach them that ground is a far safer place to be. There should be a conditions which set your damage going. You will try to reach those and your opponent will try to work around them.
Combination of those is what also creates a comeback factor, that would allow you to take a couple of bad reads/mistakes and still come up on top in the end, making good reads later on.
How does Blood and Sun god fair in these aspects?
1) SG and BG doesnt have good mixup. In fact BG has NO mixup at all, while SG has mixup that has obnoxiously bad RR and completely unreliable and risky block pressure (as you can only throw-cancel from pokes and thus every poke becomes a gamble), his zoning is a joke (well you can buff your sundisks into 30% projectiles but it will still be a god damn shitty 30% projectile) his pokes are decent but do not convert to anything, b/c KK totally fails at...
2) punishment. SG and BG just DO NOT profit from reads. Where WG can take a hard read and counterpoke with b14 (and hitconfirm it into and overhead starter) and take that 35%+ your best bet is 2-3% or throw into non-existant pressure and wakeups. Where WG has a strong armor that is also a deterrent against hard to AA jumps and crossups SG and BG has ... mace parry? the worst parry in the game probably?
Their only hope is an extremely setup-heavy situations which must be achieved first to work, but no tools to achieve them are provided, eliminating any means for comeback to these variations.
To at least hope to make those variations remotely playable major buffs are required and even then I do not see them winning, unless those buff would alter fundamentals I described above.
Apply these rules to any other characters and you will see why some are good and others are not.
Some buffs that might turn community eye to ketchup and mustard variations of KK are
- Better startup on sun disc and sun ray
- Doubled duration on BG totems
- Mace parry stunning opponent on successful parry into free combo (with 8 fr starup on normal version this is no way imbalanced and most MB armor move grant a combo, so its only logical to have this)
- WAY more health/bar regen for SG (I'm thinking 12% health per charge at least and 1 bar per charge)
- adjustments to frame data that would allow application of sun god throw off blockstrings (take a look at Erron Black 211 now back to KK - sadly, KK is not Erron Black)
Suggest your own buffs to make KK variations more viable
So I want KK community to give up on them and just focus on War God for the sake of everyone, so that KK sees more crazy setups and more tournament play.
The two things that determine character sucess in FG are ability to force a reaction and ability to punish
1) Ability to force a reaction is a lot of things.
- You character has a good/safe mixup? This means your opponent just cannot allow you to get close and will be throwing things out.
- Does your character has that + on block normal that you can spam over and over again (see pre-patch Kano) until your opponent finally decides to try something
- Do you have a zoning move or far reaching normal that pushes your opponent back, so that he has to take some kind of risk to approach?
- Maybe you have nothing but a string that builds a lot of meter and leaves you safe to try again? Well your opponent definitely doesnt want to block it too often does he?
- Do you have a powerful armor move that keeps your opponent at check all the time, afraid to throw moves out?
Basically do you have ANY means of annoying your opponent?
2) Ability to punish is not just block punishment. Its an ablity to profit from a good read. You want to be able to extract damage from correct guesses and you want that damage to grow with the amount of effort it took to make that read (if you had to take a high risk, reward must be also high). If you block a mixup - you gotta punish. If you read a poke - you want to profit from it too. Did you just backdash to let that swing fly by? Get them before they can block. Do you see them jumping? Please teach them that ground is a far safer place to be. There should be a conditions which set your damage going. You will try to reach those and your opponent will try to work around them.
Combination of those is what also creates a comeback factor, that would allow you to take a couple of bad reads/mistakes and still come up on top in the end, making good reads later on.
How does Blood and Sun god fair in these aspects?
1) SG and BG doesnt have good mixup. In fact BG has NO mixup at all, while SG has mixup that has obnoxiously bad RR and completely unreliable and risky block pressure (as you can only throw-cancel from pokes and thus every poke becomes a gamble), his zoning is a joke (well you can buff your sundisks into 30% projectiles but it will still be a god damn shitty 30% projectile) his pokes are decent but do not convert to anything, b/c KK totally fails at...
2) punishment. SG and BG just DO NOT profit from reads. Where WG can take a hard read and counterpoke with b14 (and hitconfirm it into and overhead starter) and take that 35%+ your best bet is 2-3% or throw into non-existant pressure and wakeups. Where WG has a strong armor that is also a deterrent against hard to AA jumps and crossups SG and BG has ... mace parry? the worst parry in the game probably?
Their only hope is an extremely setup-heavy situations which must be achieved first to work, but no tools to achieve them are provided, eliminating any means for comeback to these variations.
To at least hope to make those variations remotely playable major buffs are required and even then I do not see them winning, unless those buff would alter fundamentals I described above.
Apply these rules to any other characters and you will see why some are good and others are not.
Some buffs that might turn community eye to ketchup and mustard variations of KK are
- Better startup on sun disc and sun ray
- Doubled duration on BG totems
- Mace parry stunning opponent on successful parry into free combo (with 8 fr starup on normal version this is no way imbalanced and most MB armor move grant a combo, so its only logical to have this)
- WAY more health/bar regen for SG (I'm thinking 12% health per charge at least and 1 bar per charge)
- adjustments to frame data that would allow application of sun god throw off blockstrings (take a look at Erron Black 211 now back to KK - sadly, KK is not Erron Black)
Suggest your own buffs to make KK variations more viable
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