General/Other - Sub-Zero Changes You Feel Sub Needs?

[TheIrishFGCguy]

If your hiding behind the clone and someone jumps over and is at the right range to kick you in the face than you should get blown up. Put your self in a position where that doesnt happen. you know like backdash.. and they fall into the clone. Thats called having good spacing which is kinda important

Lmao what? If I block a jump-in with an ice klone protecting me, I should be blown up? That's completely ridiculous. If they hit me they get a full combo and if they don't hit me they fall into the clone and get frozen, that would be fair and logical. Right now it makes no sense.
Why should I as the Sub Zero player have to retreat when I put up a klone mid-screen? It's my tool, I should be able to apply pressure from that situation should I choose to. My opponent should be the one to watch their spacing and stay out of my 50/50 range. If I have to be out of the range where I can get hit with a jump-in then that means I have to be out of the range where I can use my normals/strings, making the klone pretty much pointless outside of the corner.

All they needed to do to address the corner harassment issue was give the klone a cool down (which they did, granted it could have been a little longer). By making it shatter on block they have unfairly nerfed its mid-screen use too.

 

[ZeZe]

Clone vanishing on block makes no sense. For correct actions there should be rewards not punishes. If clone has to go at least reward the freakin' block somehow. Could be clone shatter that will either push away, stun, minor dmg, whatever of at least minor benefit.
I think what really bothers me with this change is - it has nothing to do with sportsmanlike conduct. In sports if you do something right you benefit from it SOMEHOW.

 

[MsMiharo]

The only thing that drives me crazy (other than how dominant his b2 is, but at least that's punishable) is how goddamn long you stay frozen from Ice Blast or Ice Clone. If you get a knockdown on Sub but get frozen in return, he should be able to maybe get a free slide or something, but right now he's got all day to just meander up to you, miss a few inputs, and then get his full-combo. I think if they took a second or two off of his freeze timer, he would still have all of the same combos and most of the same pressure (he would even still be able to combo on trade if not knocked down or otherwise held up); it would just make him a bit less brain dead. Hell, I'd even be fine if he could still get a free combo after getting knocked down if it was at least a little tighter (require a run cancel, don't fuck up, must use relatively fast starter).

TLDR: I think trading a knockdown for getting frozen should at least somewhat limit SZ's options; right now it has zero effect on even the scrubbiest player.

They literally have time to plant a tree, watch it grow into a beautiful oak, chop it down, use the wood to build a house, settle in with their family, make them a snowman and still full combo punish you.

 

[Hawkingbird]

I just want Klone shattering on block fixed. Having air hammer be practical in Cryo would be nice but otherwise I'm happy with it.

 

[MsMiharo]

I love how everyone wants a fix for the clone when it seems like it's now working as intended?

 

[lionheart21]

Nothing, Sub is fine the way he is now.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Lmao what? If I block a jump-in with an ice klone protecting me, I should be blown up? That's completely ridiculous. If they hit me they get a full combo and if they don't hit me they fall into the clone and get frozen, that would be fair and logical. Right now it makes no sense.
Why should I as the Sub Zero player have to retreat when I put up a klone mid-screen? It's my tool, I should be able to apply pressure from that situation should I choose to. My opponent should be the one to watch their spacing and stay out of my 50/50 range. If I have to be out of the range where I can get hit with a jump-in then that means I have to be out of the range where I can use my normals/strings, making the klone pretty much pointless outside of the corner.

All they needed to do to address the corner harassment issue was give the klone a cool down (which they did, granted it could have been a little longer). By making it shatter on block they have unfairly nerfed its mid-screen use too.

Because Klone is meant to bait your opponent, and to do so you have to retreat. It isnt meant for you to sit behind it and wait for them to get frozen. That is what the nerfs try to avoid. Also keep in mind that "tool" can be thrown at any time for you to be plus on block and get free pressure. Yes you are out of your 50/50 range but that was the point, the devs didnt want Sub Zero to not only have a clone up but also have a threat of the 50/50.

With good spacing you can still blow people up. I suggest learning how to backdash, for real. Someone jumps at you? Backdash, they get frozen. Someone tries to do a move to go through the clone? Backdash, they get frozen.

you guys still have a projectile that trades with everything for a full combo, frame traps with the clone, 50/50s, ridiculous corner pressure(you are the only character in the game that gets a combo from a teched grab), A great wakeup and armored reversal, etc.

Sub is still top 10, maybe even higher. If you don't like the way he plays now then play someone else, but he is still very good and just requires you to make more reads and have better spacing.

 

[DarksydeDash]

I agree with this but here's my suggestions.

Cryomancer:
-More hit advantage on the string "Cold Blooded"

-Some type of duckable projectile like an ice dagger because Cryomancer needs a way to build meter.

Unbreakable:
-Less recovery on MB'd shield
- Parry's interactables

Something I thought of:
Ice shield is dash cancelable. Might be too op xD

 

[WayoftheFist]

Are you really asking for buffs? I've been biting my nails hoping we don't get any more nerfs. let the game evolve a bit before you say he needs something. Nerfs or not he still feels super strong right now.

 

[Bidu]

Cooldown on clone was necessary. It made Ice Clone extremely overpower against some match ups. And we never needed it to be instant cooldown in MK9 anyways, right?

But Clone shattering on block hurts Sub-Zero in a new level we never faced before in MK. Specially against some particular match ups. There's also some match ups that I barely notice the difference. So the only change I would make is reverse this change. Or do what was wrote in the patch notes in the first place, which was to clone shatter on block instead of glitch in some cases, like against Raiden's Superman for one.

The only thing that drives me crazy (other than how dominant his b2 is, but at least that's punishable) is how goddamn long you stay frozen from Ice Blast or Ice Clone. If you get a knockdown on Sub but get frozen in return, he should be able to maybe get a free slide or something, but right now he's got all day to just meander up to you, miss a few inputs, and then get his full-combo. I think if they took a second or two off of his freeze timer, he would still have all of the same combos and most of the same pressure (he would even still be able to combo on trade if not knocked down or otherwise held up); it would just make him a bit less brain dead. Hell, I'd even be fine if he could still get a free combo after getting knocked down if it was at least a little tighter (require a run cancel, don't fuck up, must use relatively fast starter).

TLDR: I think trading a knockdown for getting frozen should at least somewhat limit SZ's options; right now it has zero effect on even the scrubbiest player.

That's soooooooooooo no true... roflmao In those situations if you miss ONE input, you're done. If you don't recover fast from the knockdown and immediately run you're done.

 

[PwnStar]

So I got some offline play with the local vegas scene and what I'm really discovering is this nerf really only affected a few matchups. I think the disconnect is people aren't seeing some of the matchups that got heavily skewed. Like Sub vs reptile, not much changed post patch...however D'vorah get STUPIDLY stronger against GM subzero. She can pretty much play without respecting clones at all in ways that were not possible prepatch. This is really the heart of the issue, the nerf fucked GMs matchups.

 

[RiBBz22]

I think Sub should be able to put 4 clones on the screen at once. However, I would be willing to settle for 3.

 

[Braindead]

I think Sub should be able to put 4 clones on the screen at once. However, I would be willing to settle for 3.

And make the clone shatter unblockable.

 

[RunwayMafia]

In Cryomancer, make "Cold Blooded" plus, so we can apply better pressure.

In Unbreakable, make his parry have less recovery and possibly dash cancel.

 

[Zoidberg747]

So I got some offline play with the local vegas scene and what I'm really discovering is this nerf really only affected a few matchups. I think the disconnect is people aren't seeing some of the matchups that got heavily skewed. Like Sub vs reptile, not much changed post patch...however D'vorah get STUPIDLY stronger against GM subzero. She can pretty much play without respecting clones at all in ways that were not possible prepatch. This is really the heart of the issue, the nerf fucked GMs matchups.

Dvorah did well against sub zero before the patch, you just had to have better spacing somewhat.

 

[PwnStar]

She did, but it got much much worse. So before she had numerous options to poke through clone, but she couldn't commit with forward moving attacks or full strings. This means all they had were pokes that would relinquish frame advantage back to sub...safely behind a clone and allow him to mix up. If they did hit sub, it was only ever a poke, not a full combo. Basically d'vorah had to respect clone and play safe, now she literally gives no fucks about the clone even existing. GM sub zero is completely pointless vs D'vorah now.

D'vorah is a unique case. But this match up went full retard post patch. It was not a minor change like with most matchups, this one is dumb now.

 

[Zoidberg747]

She did, but it got much much worse. So before she had numerous options to poke through clone, but she couldn't commit with forward moving attacks or full strings. This means all they had were pokes that would relinquish frame advantage back to sub...safely behind a clone and allow him to mix up. If they did hit sub, it was only ever a poke, not a full combo. Basically d'vorah had to respect clone and play safe, now she literally gives no fucks about the clone even existing. GM sub zero is completely pointless vs D'vorah now.

D'vorah is a unique case. But this match up went full retard post patch. It was not a minor change like with most matchups, this one is dumb now.

To be fair a lot of MUs pre-patch were the same way but in Sub's favor.

My advice is to learn another character for that MU or use unbreakable, which I think does the best against her now.

 

[RM Truth]

Lmao what? If I block a jump-in with an ice klone protecting me, I should be blown up? That's completely ridiculous. If they hit me they get a full combo and if they don't hit me they fall into the clone and get frozen, that would be fair and logical. Right now it makes no sense.
Why should I as the Sub Zero player have to retreat when I put up a klone mid-screen? It's my tool, I should be able to apply pressure from that situation should I choose to. My opponent should be the one to watch their spacing and stay out of my 50/50 range. If I have to be out of the range where I can get hit with a jump-in then that means I have to be out of the range where I can use my normals/strings, making the klone pretty much pointless outside of the corner.

All they needed to do to address the corner harassment issue was give the klone a cool down (which they did, granted it could have been a little longer). By making it shatter on block they have unfairly nerfed its mid-screen use too.

Why don't you just low profile the jump in?

 

[PwnStar]

To be fair a lot of MUs pre-patch were the same way but in Sub's favor.

My advice is to learn another character for that MU or use unbreakable, which I think does the best against her now.

Yes and a lot of sub zeros would probably agree clone was busted, but the issue was how often you could abuse it. I think a lot of us were fine with a cooldown to limit the ability to spam it. Honestly they should remove the block nerf and simply increase the cool down even more. A move shouldn't be that entirely useless in a match up.

 

[Ugodimak]

To be fair a lot of MUs pre-patch were the same way but in Sub's favor.

My advice is to learn another character for that MU or use unbreakable, which I think does the best against her now.

Who does D'Vorah even have a bad matchup against?

 

[Zoidberg747]

Yes and a lot of sub zeros would probably agree clone was busted, but the issue was how you could abuse it. I think a lot of us were fine with a cooldown to limit the ability to spam it. Honestly they should remove the block nerf and simply increase the cool down even more. A move shouldn't be that entirely useless in a match up.

Sorry to break it to you but plenty of moves become useless in a certain MU. Dvorah's puddle/vortex is useless against characters with fast forward advancing moves. That's just how it goes.

And the cooldown wouldnt be enough because he can just throw the clone, be plus for a free mixup and then the cooldown is done by the time he's done with the pressure. I thought the nerfs were a bit overboard but you guys gotta stop crying and start adapting, because it most likely will not get changed.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Who does D'Vorah even have a bad matchup against?

I have no idea what that has to do w/ anything. Besides, I dont like throwing numbers around a month into the games life, although I would think she has very few bad MUs since she is so good. But if I HAD to guess: Jax, Kung Lao, Quan Chi, Raiden. Those are just my guesses though.

 

[Ugodimak]

I have no idea what that has to do w/ anything. Besides, I dont like throwing numbers around a month into the games life, although I would think she has very few bad MUs since she is so good. But if I HAD to guess: Jax, Kung Lao, Quan Chi, Raiden. Those are just my guesses though.

Damn man, I was just asking for who gave her problems. Lol But, thanks for responding.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Damn man, I was just asking for who gave her problems. Lol But, thanks for responding.

I didnt mean to come off too harsh, I was just confused why you would ask in this thread haha.

But chances are she could have no really bad MUs once the game settles(and she remains the same somehow). She is stupid good.

 

[KoldSpecter]

I feel, like all variations need:
b33->iceball midscreen on all hitboxes
little more hitbox for ex-ice burst, cuz it's looks weird when someone jump-ins you and at 11oclock it's not catching them, but looking at burst animation and shatters it should

GM:
klone doesnt shatters on block
consistent corner combos on all hitboxes and stances
improved clone hitbox to catch Raiden's superman and things like that consistently
longer clone cooldown to keep it balanced (with some sort of timer, for example - when clone shatters dissapear from floor, you can set it up again)

CM:
make ex-hammer a bit safer

UB:
some anti-air stuff like Ice Burst, because now his best option is d4 to lower hitbox
little less recovery on parry