Discussion MKXL Post 3/29/16 Tier List Thread

[BlackJackSnack]

My only Professor Quirrell with this is KL being so low. I understand all the points above but we're his match ups changed that much? He still has really good tools.

Great list imo!!!

 

[Derptile]

My only Professor Quirrell with this is KL being so low. I understand all the points above but we're his match ups changed that much? He still has really good tools.

Great list imo!!!

If he can't do impressive things in a game where almost every character has a fuck ton of impressive shit how can he expect to have good MUs?

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I'd be really interested in seeing an XL tempest matchup chart. I don't know him well enough to make one but I'd be interested to see how many characters he still beats. I think some slight advantage ones for him like Sub became even, and some slight disadvantage ones may have became straight up losing like royal storm. Id expect a lot of 5-5s probably but I really don't know.

 

[Awkward Sloth]

Needs more ridiculous Jacquie up play

 

[Kroaken]

I really like this list. No complaints.

 

[Derptile]

Very reasonable, while everything isnt set in stone this is pretty damn close to accurate and the + and - things make a lot of sense. Im glad Ermac is being recognized as rediculous after this patch finally, the "unsafe god" with safe 50-50s and plus frames lol. Anyway I think if I were to make any change it would be to just go ahead and move Raiden up one even though and seriously keep the (+) there still, I dont know what is with people but Displacer is insanely good; jailing 50-50s, great neutral, damage ect. People are living in the past with this character and I think they still are lost on how to play him without F1 being mid lol. F1 is the best meterless punish string in the game, if you arent punishing everything thats -7 or more with that you are not playing him to his potential

The main problem with Displacer is that he definitely needs meter for all of his dirty shit, which if he can get it started is as good as what characters in the A/A+ tiers can do, but without it he's just an average sort of character. For Thunder God he's definitely no where near as meter hungry as Displacer but his damage outside of the corner is pretty pitiful, and his neutral, mobility, and safety is not on the same level as Displacer.

I do think the community right now is oblivious to Raiden in general, but for now being B+ with a (+) seems like a fair spot for him.

 

[Tweedy]

I'd be really interested in seeing an XL tempest matchup chart. I don't know him well enough to make one but I'd be interested to see how many characters he still beats. I think some slight advantage ones for him like Sub became even, and some slight disadvantage ones may have became straight up losing like royal storm. Id expect a lot of 5-5s probably but I really don't know.

Probably going to be unpopular with my opinion, but I played the character for a long time, so i'll give my completely honest opinion.

Imo he beat Kitana before the patch, now it's probably 5-5. People say stuff like "Kitana has always beat Kung Lao in Mortal Kombat", so maybe past games have influenced credible players, to think that he loses on this game. I don't think that MU has ever been horrible for Lao on this game, at least after she got her damage nerfed.

Match ups like Jax, A List Johnny, Flamefist Liu(Tempest specific), have went from tough match ups, to horrible match ups. Also, a lot of 5-5s or even 6-4s he had with characters like Takeda, D'vorah, Shinnok(both BS and Imposter), Sonya, Erron Black, could easily be losing MUs now. Ferra Torr as well could be a losing match up. It could have been before, honestly. It just wasn't explored.

Popular characters that he does well against and could possibly beat, are Shaolin Kung Jin, Alien and Kotal Khan.

I had him winning vs Cassie, Reptile, Sub Zero(I went back and forth on that being a 5-5 or 6-4 Lao), Kano, Goro, Jacqui, Kenshi. These could all be 5-5s now. Kano might win.

Who knows what Mileena vs Lao was before the patch. Now I don't think it's debatable, Mileena wins. Whether it's 7-3 or 6-4, Lao loses.

Jason, BRC, Triborg, Tremor, Ermac, Predator, and whoever else I didn't mention, i'm not sure on.

Oh and he still beats Tanya.

Again, all my opinion.

 

[Derptile]

Wat

Flame Fist has always lost to Tempest.

 

[Tweedy]

Wat

Flame Fist has always lost to Tempest.

I figured that'd be unpopular, yeah.

I've played the MU a ton and I've always thought that, even though people tell me that it's not the case. I'm not just downplaying either because I think that Buzzsaw does really well vs FF. Maybe my perception of the MU is just bad.

Edit: I'll list some reasons.

- Tempest EX spin only hits once, so Kang can do EX DB2 to avoid getting blown up after windmill punches, unlike vs Buzzsaw.

- Liu Kang's D2 is a very easy way to blow up Lao's jump ins, even with his pre patch jump 2.

- Top 3 walk speed vs bottom 3 walk speed.

- Liu's projectiles force Lao to come in.

- Kung Lao is very good at shutting down jumping. Jumping doesn't really help Liu. It's not really in his gameplan.

- Kung Lao has no launching low so parrying is not nearly as risky vs him.

 

[Prinz]

With Kung Lao being thet low, I'm starting to wonder which is his best variation right now

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

I figured that'd be unpopular, yeah.

I've played the MU a ton and I've always thought that, even though people tell me that it's not the case. I'm not just downplaying either because I think that Buzzsaw does really well vs FF. Maybe my perception of the MU is just bad.

Edit: I'll list some reasons.

- Tempest EX spin only hits once, so Kang can do EX DB2 to avoid getting blown up after windmill punches, unlike vs Buzzsaw.
- Liu Kang's D2 is a very easy way to blow up Lao's jump ins, even with his pre patch jump 2.
- Top 3 walk speed vs bottom 3 walk speed.
- Liu's projectiles force Lao to come in.
- Kung Lao is very good at shutting down jumping. Jumping doesn't really help Liu. It's not really in his gameplan.
- Kung Lao has no launching low so parrying is not nearly as risky vs him.

- FBF4 into ex DB2 has such a big gap that Lao can JUMP OUT for a full combo punish. Look at the risk reward: Tempest makes right read he gets a full combo, Flamefist makes right read he wins the trade for a whooping 10%.
- Jump kick works. And Lao doesn't need to jump in Liu, he has F2, d4 and B2 that can outspace Liu
- Agree. Lao has to come in
- This doesn't do anything with the matchup
- Instant dive kick/Instant jump forward 2 will punish Liu's parry. If Lao wants to play safe all he needs to do is just instant jump forward 2, B2 hat spin. He doesn't need to hit confirm anything because his launcher is safe. If he wants a guaranteed punish on whiff parry he can dive kick

 

[Tweedy]

- FBF4 into ex DB2 has such a big gap that Lao can JUMP OUT for a full combo punish. Look at the risk reward: Tempest makes right read he gets a full combo, Flamefist makes right read he wins the trade for a whooping 10%.
- Jump kick works. And Lao doesn't need to jump in Liu, he has F2, d4 and B2 that can outspace Liu
- Agree. Lao has to come in
- This doesn't do anything with the matchup
- Instant dive kick/Instant jump forward 2 will punish Liu's parry. If Lao wants to play safe all he needs to do is just instant jump forward 2, B2 hat spin. He doesn't need to hit confirm anything because his launcher is safe. If he wants a guaranteed punish on whiff parry he can dive kick

How are you getting a full combo after jumping over DB2? Maybe pre patch before jump 2 was normalized. You're too high to convert off of anything with dive kick, i'm pretty sure.

Jump 3 probably works on cross overs, but you couldn't jump on flame fist at range pre patch, with jump 2. I'm in practice mode and it doesn't seem like jump 3 works at all vs Kang's D2.

The counter argument about the parry doesn't really do anything. My point is that there's less risk in parrying, since Lao has no low launcher. Any character can blow up anything if they read it. I mean...... I'm not just gonna knock liu kang down and do an instant air dive kick or jump 2.

Kung Lao's spacing is possibly the most overrated thing on this game. F2 is an okay mid that gets low profiled. It's basically a pretty good high. His D4 is good and B2 as a neutral tool? No way. His walk speed might be bottom 3, and Liu Kang has what might be top 3 walk speed. That is so huge, especially considering that Kang can auto pilot anti air with D2, and Lao has to come in on him.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Starting to think that Alien might need his own tier, or the top tier might need readjusting. Is Ermac good? Yes. Is he as good as Alien? No. Is D'Vorah as good as Alien? No.

Alien is a notch above some of the characters in that 'S' category. He might be the closest thing to a true S-tier, while some of those others are likely just strong A+'s.

 

[thlityoursloat]

D'vorah is as good as a character gets? She really does have it all, from safe 50/50s to braindead pressure.

 

[Derptile]

Starting to think that Alien might need his own tier, or the top tier might need readjusting. Is Ermac good? Yes. Is he as good as Alien? No. Is D'Vorah as good as Alien? No.

Alien is a notch above some of the characters in that 'S' category. He might be the closest thing to a true S-tier, while some of those others are likely just strong A+'s.

Nooooooo

He's good but the lack of MU knowledge is making him seem way better than he is.

D'vorah is as good as a character gets? She really does have it all, from safe 50/50s to braindead pressure.

Nah, Kano and Mileena are more complete.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Nooooooo

He's good but the lack of MU knowledge is making him seem way better than he is.

What's the weak point that's not being exploited? And how many of the other chars in that grouping are being fought against optimally most of the time?

It sounds like you may be underestimating Alien's toolset. I'm not sold on the fact that Alien and D'Vorah etc. are at the same level.

 

[Derptile]

What's the weak point that's not being exploited? And how many of the other chars in that grouping are being fought against optimally most of the time?

It sounds like you may be underestimating Alien's toolset. I'm not sold on the fact that Alien and D'Vorah etc. are at the same level.

Well, what variation are you being specific about?

 

[x TeeJay o]

Most likely, I should probably put a plus next to him as well...

Do people even read past the first page anymore?

pretty lady is insane. he is really good

 

[x TeeJay o]

What's the weak point that's not being exploited? And how many of the other chars in that grouping are being fought against optimally most of the time?

It sounds like you may be underestimating Alien's toolset. I'm not sold on the fact that Alien and D'Vorah etc. are at the same level.

you think Alien is better than D'vorah or vice versa?

 

[youthinkyoubadyouaintbad]

8 characters in S tier? I'm sorry this is a lazy tier list. And no i'm not giving you my tier list. I'm saying this one is lazy. Hold dat lazy tier list in your chest.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Well, what variation are you being specific about?

Well, you said you based the list off each character's best variation -- so which did you pick (Acidic?)

you think Alien is better than D'vorah or vice versa?

Yes.

 

[Kroaken]

Well, you said you based the list off each character's best variation -- so which did you pick (Acidic?)


Yes.

Not quite a yes or no question but its pretty clear he's saying alien is above dvorah. Quite considerably.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I don't think Alien is better than Johnny Cage, Mileena, or Kano. Also how many matchups does Johnny Cage even lose if he switches between A-List and Stunt Double based on it. I'm not going on a Cage witch hunt but maybe a Cage player can tell me?

 

[x TeeJay o]

D'vorah is as good as a character gets? She really does have it all, from safe 50/50s to braindead pressure.

what safe 50/50's?

 

[x TeeJay o]

for people who think Alien is safe, semi safe, or unpunishable.


http://testyourmight.com/threads/punishing-alien.60058/