Braindead
I want Kronika to step on my face
You say you're a Shinnok player, how long have you been playing him? Did you play him before the projectile buff? Was that 7f low "too much" back then?
You say you're a Shinnok player, how long have you been playing him? Did you play him before the projectile buff? Was that 7f low "too much" back then?
Other characters in the game don't have 7f low starters so why should he? The majority of the cast projectiles are -9 or -10 on block why should he be different? I don't understand why people think this is ok and doesn't need changing or tweaking?This. THIS. THIS. THIS. and MORE OF THIS.
People cry about a 7 frame low, but please look at his other strings and tell me when do you see those EVER being used.
A few small changes that the majority of the community agrees on.
Do NOT touch his F4.
Make D1 8-9 frames
Make Dark Beam -7/-8 on block.
Maybe do something with the F41D2 string.
This is it, nothing more.
No some characters have 7 frame reversals that are alot worse than his Low.Other characters in the game don't have 7f low starters so why should he? The majority of the cast projectiles are -9 or -10 on block why should he be different? I don't understand why people think this is ok and doesn't need changing or tweaking?
day one. and no 7f low day one was not to much when it was all he had. Now that it isn't anymore it needs to be tweaked. That is the point of "balancing" Not just adding on stuff every patch with "take" That is how you get an overpowering character. Which is where we kinda are at this point in time.You say you're a Shinnok player, how long have you been playing him? Did you play him before the projectile buff? Was that 7f low "too much" back then?
Please stop. It is almost like you have no idea and you are just typing.day one. and no 7f low day one was not to much when it was all he had. Now that it isn't anymore it needs to be tweaked. That is the point of "balancing" Not just adding on stuff every patch with "take" That is how you get an overpowering character. Which is where we kinda are at this point in time.
Injustice.....yuck. anyways goro projectile is super slow that why its -3. and if you want to make nok f4 only 7f if you use meter (lmao) then your "some characters have 7 frame reversals that are alot worse than his Low" is something i could get on board with. And Predator is busted we all know that. He need to get hit with the nerf bat along with nok! lolNo some characters have 7 frame reversals that are alot worse than his Low.
Goro has a -3 Projectile and a +12 one.
HQT Predator is something around -5 I think
Each character is different, if you want different characters with the same moves go play Injustice.
7f low is a no. and so is dark beam being -4 on block. Well just have to see what happens when the patch drops. Either way im good. but if they nerf my character a bit I guess i could feel less dirty about a win or two on my part.Please stop. It is almost like you have no idea and you are just typing.
It's like you're trying to come off as stupid.Injustice.....yuck. anyways goro projectile is super slow that why its -3. and if you want to make nok f4 only 7f if you use meter (lmao) then your "some characters have 7 frame reversals that are alot worse than his Low" is something i could get on board with. And Predator is busted we all know that. He need to get hit with the nerf bat along with nok! lol
? I wasnt comparing a normal to an armor wake up just now.It's like you're trying to come off as stupid.
All of your posts make my brain hurt, his low is not going to be changed and that's that.
I see what your saying. well have to see. It just seem a bit to fast for what it grants you. I see alot of people saying change some thing to the f4 string before the 3rd hit in f4,1 d2. if dark beam was less safer and f4 was slower that would balance the string out. SZ and kotal have 10f strings and they are viable.All of your posts make my brain hurt, his low is not going to be changed and that's that.
It would balance the string YES, but RUIN the other Variations. This is why we leave the F4 ALONE. WE HAVE VARIATIONS IN THIS GAME PEOPLE JUST A HEADS UP FOR THE PEOPLE THAT DO NOT REALIZE IT YET.I see what your saying. well have to see. It just seem a bit to fast for what it grants you. I see alot of people saying change some thing to the f4 string before the 3rd hit in f4,1 d2. if dark beam was less safer and f4 was slower that would balance the string out.
Its also a straw man because he has another move(I think its F3?) that has a VERY similar animation and is safe on block(it isnt OH though obviously). So all a good Shinnok would have to do is mix it up between that and the overhead and the opponent would eventually stop trying to punish the overhead for fear of getting blown up. (F3 can be punished by 5f reversals though, so Cassie is like the only one without this issue).TL;DR: People not capitalizing on the overhead is NOT the problem.
In EGL top 8, I counted all the overhead usages during the matches.
Summary:
Thrown out 12 times
Connected: 4/12
Punished: 2/12
Blocked pressure: 6/12
Missed punishes: 6/8
13 min, MIT vs. Wound: Block pressure (Wound let go of block and got caught) Tanya f1
14:05, MIT vs. Wound: Block pressure Tanya f1
15:12, MIT vs. Wound: Block pressure Tanya f1
1:04:50 DJT vs Wound: Connected in corner
1:08:00 DJT vs Wound: Connected mid screen
1:09:00 DJT vs. Wound: Thrown out after re-stand combo, jumped out of into block pressure
1:10:32 DJT vs. Wound: Thrown out after re-stand combo, jumped out of (into full punish)
1:12:40 DJT vs Wound: 11 afterwards, Wound blocked
Notable Sonicfox went 3-2 (in SF favor) in matches vs. DJT w/o using overhead once
1:44:49 DJT vs Wound: connected in corner
1:45:38 DJT vs Wound: full punish from f12
1:47:25 DJT vs Wound: block pressure f12
1:50:40 DJT vs Wound: connected in corner
I think the Terry brothers stand as good representatives of 'good MKX players' and have put significant time (I would imagine) practicing match ups, especially Boneshaper.
Saying they missed the punish opportunities off the overhead is valid, but I think the expectation to punish Shinnok mathematically is flawed because of the options he has otherwise. Hellsparks is minus on block, but you can delay the enhance version to catch them. This is valid always unless they use an armored mb move, making Shinnok's opponents (IF they have an armored advancing move) just as meter dependent as he is to deliver any response to pressure.
However, my main point is that DJT and MIT have practiced this match up... A LOT. They understand how to punish and when to. Their failure to do so in these sets I don't think is due to lack of practice or ignorance... it's because Shinnok has such a strong option (loopable pressure from his 7f low) that the person receiving Shinnok's pressure has to wait and see which option Shinnok chooses to throw out after a blocked MB hellsparks OR successful combo (run in low, run in OH, run in grab, do another hell sparks, jump back zone, etc.). The defender is literally forced to sit and eat whatever Shinnok throws out.
This is such a straw man that I'm surprised no one else jumped on it. Sonic Fox won 3/5 rounds over DJT's tremor and didn't use the overhead once. People not capitalizing on the overhead is NOT the problem.
My point was not that punishing the overhead in itself is the problem. My point is that if people aren't doing it, and are generally NOT playing the matchup well, then they have no right to complain about Shinnok. Punishing the overhead on block isn't even the only way to blow it up. If Shinnok does anything besides the guaranteed low then he can be punished. Nobody is exploiting this, so everyone needs to stop complaining.TL;DR: People not capitalizing on the overhead is NOT the problem.
In EGL top 8, I counted all the overhead usages during the matches.
Summary:
Thrown out 12 times
Connected: 4/12
Punished: 2/12
Blocked pressure: 6/12
Missed punishes: 6/8
13 min, MIT vs. Wound: Block pressure (Wound let go of block and got caught) Tanya f1
14:05, MIT vs. Wound: Block pressure Tanya f1
15:12, MIT vs. Wound: Block pressure Tanya f1
1:04:50 DJT vs Wound: Connected in corner
1:08:00 DJT vs Wound: Connected mid screen
1:09:00 DJT vs. Wound: Thrown out after re-stand combo, jumped out of into block pressure
1:10:32 DJT vs. Wound: Thrown out after re-stand combo, jumped out of (into full punish)
1:12:40 DJT vs Wound: 11 afterwards, Wound blocked
Notable Sonicfox went 3-2 (in SF favor) in matches vs. DJT w/o using overhead once
1:44:49 DJT vs Wound: connected in corner
1:45:38 DJT vs Wound: full punish from f12
1:47:25 DJT vs Wound: block pressure f12
1:50:40 DJT vs Wound: connected in corner
I think the Terry brothers stand as good representatives of 'good MKX players' and have put significant time (I would imagine) practicing match ups, especially Boneshaper.
Saying they missed the punish opportunities off the overhead is valid, but I think the expectation to punish Shinnok mathematically is flawed because of the options he has otherwise. Hellsparks is minus on block, but you can delay the enhance version to catch them. This is valid always unless they use an armored mb move, making Shinnok's opponents (IF they have an armored advancing move) just as meter dependent as he is to deliver any response to pressure.
However, my main point is that DJT and MIT have practiced this match up... A LOT. They understand how to punish and when to. Their failure to do so in these sets I don't think is due to lack of practice or ignorance... it's because Shinnok has such a strong option (loopable pressure from his 7f low) that the person receiving Shinnok's pressure has to wait and see which option Shinnok chooses to throw out after a blocked MB hellsparks OR successful combo (run in low, run in OH, run in grab, do another hell sparks, jump back zone, etc.). The defender is literally forced to sit and eat whatever Shinnok throws out.
This is such a straw man that I'm surprised no one else jumped on it. Sonic Fox won 3/5 rounds over DJT's tremor and didn't use the overhead once. People not capitalizing on the overhead is NOT the problem.
Yes and he's always had that even when he was "bottom 5".I dont think that changing the beam frames on block does all too much
You can still end the string f41d2 and be -5 on block.
You are going to get the same Hate I get when I always say people need to take more Risks when they play Shinnok. It is only a 1 frame link after the re-stand, and maybe a 2 frame link after EX Hell Sparks. People just assume its guaranteed and just block.My point was not that punishing the overhead in itself is the problem. My point is that if people aren't doing it, and are generally NOT playing the matchup well, then they have no right to complain about Shinnok. Punishing the overhead on block isn't even the only way to blow it up. If Shinnok does anything besides the guaranteed low then he can be punished. Nobody is exploiting this, so everyone needs to stop complaining.
I tried it in the lab, and it's very, very easy to practice an option select after the MB hell spark which will blow up the F4 if it wasn't linked in time, and will block it if Shinnok linked it in time.You are going to get the same Hate I get when I always say people need to take more Risks when they play Shinnok. It is only a 1 frame link after the re-stand, and maybe a 2 frame link after EX Hell Sparks. People just assume its guaranteed and just block.
I mentioned in the OP that most Shinnok players have already talked about this nerf, we've been saying it's all he needs for quite some time.Also, this is the same nerf I proposed in my thread "history of Shinnok". I also proposed a MB HS nerf but it would affect all variations so I scrapped it.