The most significant reason why people Rage in this Game.

[ExpectFlames]

I wanted to start this off by saying how much of a blast I have been having with the joker this week,Over 350 games super deep tech maaad fun. I also wanted to point out what should have been super obvious from the onset but was somewhat hidden under a veil of balance.
The chief most reason people rage in this game, is it DEMANDS HIGH level strats or skills to even be realativly decent. For instance- in order to stop cetrions Qauke ideally is the Flawless block it. I cannot stress enough how unreasonable it is to ask a casual to lab that technique. Contrary to popular opinion it does not come with practice or matchup knowledge. I am nub but I wouldnt consider myself a "casual" I typically run 2 or 3 hours a day typically and I'll FB on luck only.
Now we could debate back and forth Fblock right so I'll give you another instance of a high tier strat requirement coming from the player. Wave dashing, it is 100% required to play this game free. If your opponent can WD And you cant it's over just dashboard. I shouldn't have to elaborate that point to much so I'll just say people get triggered because the game is attempting to squeeze to much skill from the player. Obviously there are other issues such as randomness hitboxes ext, but I think feeding the weak to the strong is why everyone hatemails about killing our family's all the time.
I dont have a solution just an observation.


Play joker lol

 

[DragonofDadashov24]

I think the rage comes from the lack of fun in this game lol. Also, no, you don’t have to lab perfect block to be a decent player at this game. I rarely see anyone at tourneys resort to FB to be honest. In fact, hit boxes, lack of speed, very limited moves and fucking idiotic breakaway system are the reasons why people drop the game early.

 

[SonicNinja3532]

I wanted to start this off by saying how much of a blast I have been having with the joker this week,Over 350 games super deep tech maaad fun. I also wanted to point out what should have been super obvious from the onset but was somewhat hidden under a veil of balance.
The chief most reason people rage in this game, is it DEMANDS HIGH level strats or skills to even be realativly decent. For instance- in order to stop cetrions Qauke ideally is the Flawless block it. I cannot stress enough how unreasonable it is to ask a casual to lab that technique. Contrary to popular opinion it does not come with practice or matchup knowledge. I am nub but I wouldnt consider myself a "casual" I typically run 2 or 3 hours a day typically and I'll FB on luck only.
Now we could debate back and forth Fblock right so I'll give you another instance of a high tier strat requirement coming from the player. Wave dashing, it is 100% required to play this game free. If your opponent can WD And you cant it's over just dashboard. I shouldn't have to elaborate that point to much so I'll just say people get triggered because the game is attempting to squeeze to much skill from the player. Obviously there are other issues such as randomness hitboxes ext, but I think feeding the weak to the strong is why everyone hatemails about killing our family's all the time.
I dont have a solution just an observation.


Play joker lol

I don’t agree with this in the slightest. Firstly wave dashing isn’t a priority due to the fact that there’s plenty of characters who do well and are viable who don’t have good wave dashes. Secondly flawless blocking isn’t essential to high level gameplay. Matter of fact, Sonicfox and Dragon who are top 3 in the scene rn don’t actually flawless block that often. Also Cetrion’s earth quake doesn’t need to be flawless blocked, that was probably the worst example to use because it can be jumped out of anywhere on screen, and it there’s a 10-11f gap between the two hits.

 

[ExpectFlames]

I think the rage comes from the lack of fun in this game lol. Also, no, you don’t have to lab perfect block to be a decent player at this game. I rarely see anyone at tourneys resort to FB to be honest. In fact, hit boxes, lack of speed, very limited moves and fucking idiotic breakaway system are the reasons why people drop the game early.

Who are you watching that doesnt FB everythin? Everything you said might be true but it's been talked to death already. AMD that's not controllable bythe player h

 

[Zviko]

People are too lazy to lab. That's it. They rather complain wherever they can instead.

 

[ExpectFlames]

I don’t agree with this in the slightest. Firstly wave dashing isn’t a priority due to the fact that there’s plenty of characters who do well and are viable who don’t have good wave dashes. Secondly flawless blocking isn’t essential to high level gameplay. Matter of fact, Sonicfox and Dragon who are top 3 in the scene rn don’t actually flawless block that often. Also Cetrion’s earth quake doesn’t need to be flawless blocked, that was probably the worst example to use because it can be jumped out of anywhere on screen, and it there’s a 10-11f gap between the two hits.

Yeah your wrong, your initial point doesnt really address the problem with WD itself you say it's not priority because plenty of viable characters have shit WD totally ignores the fact that those "viable" characters you mention essentially are playing a different game then the rest of the cast. Cetrion and shao are different beast to me that points moot. Secondly my point about FB being essential which someone of your skill lvl should know their are plenty of moves that you must FB to not get trapped in realy stupid situations. WE ALL HAVE HEARD THE JUST FB. I'm not really sure why you argued this point, is it a prerequisite to load Mk11 proably not is it a necessity to not swallow 1000 and traps? Yes.

 

[ExpectFlames]

People are too lazy to lab. That's it. They rather complain wherever they can instead.

I disagree man I think people spend time on the twitters and reddits and YouTubes gathering what they see and practicing it. I personally think the toxicity is just caused by the biggest portion because its so incredibly difficult and the rewards are playing only more difficult players that do those high lvl things. You have to know so much information and it might sound scrubby AF but maybe a fighter should be as simple as this looks punishable let me use my punish, mk11 says well can you punish that -12 move that has blockstun and pushback???

 

[freerf245]

Not really. I never intentionally flawless block shit like Cetrions quake in the neutral and I don't really see many high level players intentionally doing it either. Yea flawless blocking is important for certain matchups but thats mainly gaps in strings, i think you just used a bad example.

Wavedashing is also matchup dependent. You say wavedashing makes the mathup unplayable, but not every character has a crazy wavedash. Yea it changes characters like Kotal and Jax, but most for must characters it isn't very game changing.

I don't agree. I've played plenty of people who are better at flawless blocking or wavedashing then I am, but don't really have an issue beating them. As long as your fundamentally better than your opponent these two mechanics aren't gonna completely ruin your chances.

 

[ExpectFlames]

Like college professor reo or engineer crimson shouldn't have to make pie charts graphs using the pythagorean theorem for something as simple as can my fastest button blow this up.

 

[M2Dave]

The chief most reason people rage in this game, is it DEMANDS HIGH level strats or skills to even be realativly decent.

I disagree. While I believe the game is very good, the fact that every character engages in the same "strike / throw" meta is an issue. Traditional character archetypes are not as prevalent as they ought to be because of preset variations. Developers were clearly afraid to take risks with the customizable variation system, thereby severely limiting player creativity and expression. I initially criticized this system and I was very mistaken.

Unfortunately, the game is also very polarized. There are people who genuinely enjoy playing the game. Then there are people who criticize every single facet (i.e., breakaway, fatal blows, krushing blows, low pokes, throws, etc.) I am not a part of the latter and I will never be, but I do wish that the meta allowed for more freedom and variety.

 

[ExpectFlames]

Not really. I never intentionally flawless block shit like Cetrions quake in the neutral and I don't really see many high level players intentionally doing it either. Yea flawless blocking is important for certain matchups but thats mainly gaps in strings, i think you just used a bad example.

Wavedashing is also matchup dependent. You say wavedashing makes the mathup unplayable, but not every character has a crazy wavedash. Yea it changes characters like Kotal and Jax, but most for must characters it isn't very game changing.

I don't agree. I've played plenty of people who are better at flawless blocking or wavedashing then I am, but don't really have an issue beating them. As long as your fundamentally better than your opponent these two mechanics aren't gonna completely ruin your chances.

Would any of us here consider ourselves casuals? I'm not sure it really applies to you, secondly I think it's a tad disingenuous to say that certain projectiles dont require FB. Of cetrion was a poor example then geras must be a better one.

 

[ExpectFlames]

I disagree. While I believe the game is very good, the fact that every character engages in the same "strike / throw" meta is an issue. Traditional character archetypes are not as prevalent as they ought to be because of preset variations. Developers were clearly afraid to take risks with the customizable variation system, thereby severely limiting player creativity and expression. I initially criticized this system and I was very mistaken.

Unfortunately, the game is also very polarized. There are people who genuinely enjoy playing the game. Then there are people who criticize every single facet (i.e., breakaway, fatal blows, krushing blows, low pokes, throws, etc.) I am not a part of the latter and I will never be, but I do wish that the meta allowed for more freedom and variety.

I belive this point has be rectified with Joker though.

 

[freerf245]

Would any of us here consider ourselves casuals? I'm not sure it really applies to you, secondly I think it's a tad disingenuous to say that certain projectiles dont require FB. Of cetrion was a poor example then geras must be a better one.

His sandtrap? Yea if you flawless block it it is super punishable, but doing that in the neutral is just unreliable. It's unreactable and trying to flawless block on prediction will get you clipped. Seriously, go watch high level play and you will very rarely see a flawless blocked quake or sandtrap in the neutral. If thats what you are practicing you are wasting your time.

 

[freerf245]

I disagree. While I believe the game is very good, the fact that every character engages in the same "strike / throw" meta is an issue. Traditional character archetypes are not as prevalent as they ought to be because of preset variations. Developers were clearly afraid to take risks with the customizable variation system, thereby severely limiting player creativity and expression. I initially criticized this system and I was very mistaken.

Unfortunately, the game is also very polarized. There are people who genuinely enjoy playing the game. Then there are people who criticize every single facet (i.e., breakaway, fatal blows, krushing blows, low pokes, throws, etc.) I am not a part of the latter and I will never be, but I do wish that the meta allowed for more freedom and variety.

Couldn't have said it any better.

 

[ExpectFlames]

His sandtrap? Yea if you flawless block it it is super punishable, but doing that in the neutral is just unreliable. It's unreactable and trying to flawless block on prediction will get you clipped. Seriously, go watch high level play and you will very rarely see a flawless blocked quake or sandtrap in the neutral. If thats what you are practicing you are wasting your time.

I dont practice Any of moves honestly, I'm comfortable beating scrubs I want nothing more lol, but nah to stop them from doing those moves you want to punish them the only way to do that is FB that is my only point sure could you play footsies yeah but they didnt intend for you to eat 100 ST which is why FB was their in the first place.

This should be really clear since they made ST more negative on FB.

 

[freerf245]

I dont practice Any of moves honestly, I'm comfortable beating scrubs I want nothing more lol, but nah to stop them from doing those moves you want to punish them the only way to do that is FB that is my only point sure could you play footsies yeah but they didnt intend for you to eat 100 ST which is why FB was their in the first place.

This should be really clear since they made ST more negative on FB.

Yea and everybody complained how useless that nerf was. If thats your problem with the game thats fine, but it's not why people are complaining about this game.

I'm also telling you that constantly trying to flawless blocking shit like that in the neutral is usually not a good idea and you are better off just blocking and advancing.

 

[ExpectFlames]

Yea and everybody complained how useless that nerf was. If thats your problem with the game thats fine, but it's not why people are complaining about this game.

I'm also telling you that constantly trying to flawless blocking shit like that in the neutral is usually not a good idea and you are better off just blocking and advancing.

I think it depends on who your listening to. I am around a casual crowd sure they want depth freedom from strike throw but their main issues are on the base lvl of the game. Are there more complex issues at play in mk11 of course but they cant even begin to "getgud" without understanding how to block and move. One would imagine that's the first thing to teach to people, just so happens to be the hardest skills to use

 

[SonicNinja3532]

Yeah your wrong, your initial point doesnt really address the problem with WD itself you say it's not priority because plenty of viable characters have shit WD totally ignores the fact that those "viable" characters you mention essentially are playing a different game then the rest of the cast. Cetrion and shao are different beast to me that points moot. Secondly my point about FB being essential which someone of your skill lvl should know their are plenty of moves that you must FB to not get trapped in realy stupid situations. WE ALL HAVE HEARD THE JUST FB. I'm not really sure why you argued this point, is it a prerequisite to load Mk11 proably not is it a necessity to not swallow 1000 and traps? Yes.

How are the viable characters playing a different game when there’s characters with both good and bad wavedashes who are viable? If the non waver dashers are still able to compete then by default wavedashing isn’t a necessity. Its good to have but not mandatory.

Secondly again flawless blocking isn’t mandatory. There’s not really any cases of strings that will badly fuck you up if you aren’t flawless blocking them, and likewise you aren’t losing games specifically because you’re not flawless blocking on negative frames. I don’t flawless block often and I get by just fine, and again sonic and dragon both don’t and they’re where they are so is that shows that it isn’t necessary to be competitive. Also on your last point, sand trap gets flawless blocked on purpose once in a blue moon. its unreactable, you’re only ever doing that on a hard read. Matter of fact the only person I’ve saw actually flawless block sand trap intentionally is ninjakilla.

 

[Zviko]

Depends what you mean by casual because I can see it could have 2 meanings. First is in terms of time someone spends on the game. They don't need to use all of those mechanics because the level of their opponents is not that high either. So there are probably multiple ways for them to deal with certain things, depending on their skill level.

And the second is exactly that, casual in terms of skill level. Some play a lot just for the sake of playing and having fun but don't have much intention to get much better which means they don't lab enough or at all.

Both of these don't have a valid reason to rage or complain about game mechanics and I think most of the complainers fall in either of these.

 

[thlityoursloat]

Isn’t ZonicPhox relatively mediocre at flawless blocking? Compared to guys like bio and ninja of course.
Don’t get me wrong FBing is super valuable, but between the fact that some characters just have doodoohead u2s, their cost and them not always altering frame data, they’re not that mandatory.

 

[kabelfritz]

i think its the most annoying that there is stuff thats super powerful but super easy to do. stuff that takes a child to execute and a god to defend against. on top of that there are a lot of counterintuitive properties and hitboxes on moves, mids that look loke overheads etc. or s1s that anti-air half screen. put a wireless connection on top of that and it can surely make people rage.

 

[Gooberking]

i think its the most annoying that there is stuff thats super powerful but super easy to do. stuff that takes a child to execute and a god to defend against. on top of that there are a lot of counterintuitive properties and hitboxes on moves, mids that look loke overheads etc. or s1s that anti-air half screen. put a wireless connection on top of that and it can surely make people rage.

That's a really annoying, not ideal dynamic, but I would argue that is an area that MK11 is actually pretty good at avoiding.

Flawless block is a good example of a meaningful mechanic that you can only apply and be rewarded for as a more advance player. Yes, it something you can use to help beat down lower level players, but it's appropriate to lose to better players, and it's not so important that you have to do it to play and enjoy the game in casual or even enthusiast level. If you are dealing with people doing it, then there is a good chance you are good enough to work around it or do it yourself.

People have differing strengths, so that doesn't mean everybody that works hard is going master that one thing, but it is a really good case of a high level mechanic, that comes into play at higher levels, and rewards higher level players for being good at things. That's kind of what you want in most cases. I've never got the sense that it contributes to general rage. Nobody has ever sent me hate mail over flawless blocking. They send me "Fans. Fans. Fans. Fans. Fans"

Everything has implications. If FB was easy then suddenly a lot of other things change. If you want to see how that plays out DOA6 and SC6 are both affordable awesome games that have easy counter systems that people in the basement skill levels try to abuse. It then becomes the better players' job to leverage the counter mechanics they are forced to put into the games to combat the ease of doing it. Everything has implications, give and take. You can do one or the other, and they mean different things. Neither one is necessarily wrong, it just means they are different experiences.

That said, I don't think there is any burden of need to use Flawless in order to enjoy or play the game. It might turn in to more of a struggle if you are trying to be in the top few hundred players on the planet, but if you are that good, then I doubt there is anything to worry about when it comes to FB's and wavedashing.

And just one note on the "you don't see FB used by pro's comments I always see". 1) It does come into frequent use unless you need to see it every 5 seconds to count it as being used. And 2) you don't have to see fb to be seeing it used. One of the big facets to Flawless blocking is the threat of it. The I'm afraid to do that thing now because I know it risks a flawless block. So not seeing is sometimes still seeing it.

 

[ChatterBox]

Everything competitive demands you use "high level strats and techniques" to win at it. I don't get how this game is any different.

 

[Wigy]

I do hate that the cetrion Boulder counterplay is primarily flawless blocking. Hurr Durr plus frames into puddle frame traps off it.

 

[ExpectFlames]

I do hate that the cetrion Boulder counterplay is primarily flawless blocking. Hurr Durr plus frames into puddle frame traps off it.

I thought this was understood like lol people think to much