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Video/Tutorial - Sun God Sun God Choke! Let's Put 'Em All to Sleep! (videos and discussion)

L

LeeVanDam

Sun God Advocate
Hey everybody! I wanted to make this thread because just like the parry thread is important to Kotal Kahn as a whole, the Sun God Choke is vital to making Sun God Kotal Kahn work. Using SGC effectively can make or break you because there isn't much of a mix up to fear otherwise.

Tick throws are awesome tools, but NJP is so powerful that it is a ton of damage being risked if they jump out of your tick throw attempt. I've put together a video on what I've been working on in order to make jumping out of tick throws not the easiest decision for our victims to make. I also want us to use this thread for other setups involving using the choke, using the implied threat of the choke, and other angles that having an unblockable/inescapable throw gives us. I look forward to your thoughts!! :D



I'm placing the new video I made which showcases the increased damage from the Sun God Choke. It gives us new life in the corner (especially no meter options) and also really helps us close the gap damage wise once we get in on someone.



This is a project for sneaking Sun God Chokes based off Qwark's amazing block string project:


Quick primer about just the choke. I talk about much of the same stuff I do in my longer guide on youtube, and I'm working on a separate one for Soul Scorch and Soul Burn since my guide was prepatch.


Another Skill Focus Primer revolving around Soul Spark and Soul Scorch.

 
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Second Saint

Second Saint

A man with too many names.
Some really good info in here, and the video itself is very well put together. Also, let's not forget about b14~sun choke, which connects the grab whether they get hit by the string or if they block it. (EDIT: I tested this before I said this, and now it doesn't work. That's weird. I'm going to see if I can get it to work again somehow. Hopefully I wasn't just mistaken.)

I don't really like his tick throws because none of them are really hit confirmable or safe. If people start just eating the poke and punishing the throw, you're forced to rely on following up with his pressure in Sun God which consists mostly of unsafe mids if you want to start a combo.

I want this variation to be good, so I hope you find some stuff to help get it there.
 
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L

LeeVanDam

Sun God Advocate
Second Saint said:
Some really good info in here, and the video itself is very well put together. Also, let's not forget about b14~sun choke, which connects the grab whether they get hit by the string or if they block it. (EDIT: I tested this before I said this, and now it doesn't work. That's weird. I'm going to see if I can get it to work again somehow. Hopefully I wasn't just mistaken.)

I don't really like his tick throws because none of them are really hit confirmable or safe. If people start just eating the poke and punishing the throw, you're forced to rely on following up with his pressure in Sun God which consists mostly of unsafe mids if you want to start a combo.

I want this variation to be good, so I hope you find some stuff to help get it there.
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Thank you so much for watching.

I'd love for people to start eating the poke just so they don't take the throw. I don't mind following up a d+1 with f+2 just to keep them honest.

Plus, a small hesitation after d+1, d+3 or d+4 on hit will give you the traditional tick throw mixup between throw/strike which still makes the victim relinquish the opportunity to counterpoke.

Best part about d+1 is if you do d+1 again they're still in throw range, or you can push them out further with d+4. Dash SGC connects more often than one would think.
 
L

LeeVanDam

Sun God Advocate
I want to elaborate on tick throws a little bit more. Kotal Kahn is rare because he is able to cancel some of his normals into the Sun God Choke because they don't have a lot of block stun.

Tick throws normally work in two scenarios, and both center around the opponent believing that they should continue blocking. This is normally accomplished with long block strings, or a sequence that ends with a powerful move that blatantly signals BLOCK!! The throw is usually replacing these elements, either by being a substitute for a normal in a really long block string the opponent has seen multiple times (training them to block so many moves in a row until it stops) or the blatantly powerful move/launcher (i.e. f+2, x-ray, etc).

Once the throw connects, it either confuses the opponent or makes them think,"okay, at this point Kotal can either attack me or throw me so I have to pay attention.". At this point, the mere idea of the throw being possible creates the opportunity where normally a string like d+1,d+4, f+2 is all blocked... they have to guess after d+4 on block,"should I keep blocking and risk being thrown or should I stick something out to stop the throw and risk being hit?" This question alone is what will make f+2 and other normals work when they shouldn't, or make the opponent arbitrarily jump and be left open for anti air while you're normally poking. This is how the sun god choke opens up your game so your real damage dealers have a chance to work without an overhead/low 50/50.
 
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Khaoz77

Khaoz77

Don't run, you're gonna trip...
So it creates a very interesting mind game when you are playing Sun God. It would depend on how many ways you can open your opponent up and keep him guessing. I do feel that Kotal has the tools to do so, but it would require a VERY solid neutral game. Imagine if we Kotal players had a really good neutral, that would be less work for us to get our opponent to the position we need them in.

We need to be like Goku where he perfects SSJ1 by staying there for extended amounts of time. We need to get gud at the neutral.
 
IIWade3II

IIWade3II

Kuff Botal
Been looking to talk about Sungod! I just played the Florida weekly and did pretty well. I try and train people to block the low on B1, 4 so I can get the grab and I usually start my pressure using the string because you can ex projectile also for damage or lots of + frames. I had problems opening people up though for lots of damage other then just whiff punishing though. Do u guys have problems opening up better players?
 
L

LeeVanDam

Sun God Advocate
IIWade3II said:
Been looking to talk about Sungod! I just played the Florida weekly and did pretty well. I try and train people to block the low on B1, 4 so I can get the grab and I usually start my pressure using the string because you can ex projectile also for damage or lots of + frames. I had problems opening people up though for lots of damage other then just whiff punishing though. Do u guys have problems opening up better players?
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My success for opening better players has depended on my success on landing certain Sun God Chokes, like a dash SGC after a block string. That has helped me hit folks with f+2 later in matches when they don't want to contest the throw. I would definitely love some more ideas though on generating big damage opportunities.
 
L

LeeVanDam

Sun God Advocate
IIWade3II said:
http://www.twitch.tv/vsgc/v/4518923
55:20 is my match. I didnt know Liu Kang pressure :(
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I thought you looked pretty good with your poking! There's only a couple of things I would have done differently:

You had a lot of sequences where your pressure ended after two d+1s, and I would have tried to cancel the second d+1 into the Sun God Choke. You had this guy trained to block really well (or he was just going to block due to lack of character knowledge). I liked your block strings, and you were already pushing him to the perfect distance for f+2, b+2, d+4, or dash Sun God Choke. Next time I would try a few dash SGCs at the end of your strings, because once one hits it will give you the ability to walk back into range for more pokes because they'll worry about being thrown again.

Liu Kang's d+4,4,4 string... great news! We can parry the flying kick on the end with EX Parry on block! :D This will give you a chance to duck the bicycle kick people like to tack on after the string's flying kick. It will make them have to use meter for the overhead, which you'll know is coming and be able to block. (I have to check to see if we can EX parry the overhead extension on block). I'm going to watch the fight a few more times to see if there are other things I can find, but I thought you were putting in some good work!
 
IIWade3II

IIWade3II

Kuff Botal
LeeVanDam said:
I thought you looked pretty good with your poking! There's only a couple of things I would have done differently:

You had a lot of sequences where your pressure ended after two d+1s, and I would have tried to cancel the second d+1 into the Sun God Choke. You had this guy trained to block really well (or he was just going to block due to lack of character knowledge). I liked your block strings, and you were already pushing him to the perfect distance for f+2, b+2, d+4, or dash Sun God Choke. Next time I would try a few dash SGCs at the end of your strings, because once one hits it will give you the ability to walk back into range for more pokes because they'll worry about being thrown again.

Liu Kang's d+4,4,4 string... great news! We can parry the flying kick on the end with EX Parry on block! :D This will give you a chance to duck the bicycle kick people like to tack on after the string's flying kick. It will make them have to use meter for the overhead, which you'll know is coming and be able to block. (I have to check to see if we can EX parry the overhead extension on block). I'm going to watch the fight a few more times to see if there are other things I can find, but I thought you were putting in some good work!
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Yo thanks for all the replies i really appreciate it!
 
Stone_Cold_Dan

Stone_Cold_Dan

Noob
Hey guys. I started out as sun god kotal kahn as my day 1 main and I love playing him. I am going to be making a tutorial on how to play him shortly but in the mean tI me here's some ideas. In terms of normals for sun god. B1 d1 are important tools for his tick throws. b1 allows you to close the gap on people who are afraid to do anything and are hold block. D1 is good cause it's 6 frames. It's quick u can keep jabbing with it to catch ppl trying to jump and combo off the d1. Or if they try to back dash your d1 pressure you can f1 b2 the back dash. Or you can go for the tick throw. the majority of his dmg comes from his lvl 1 and 2 command throw as it puts the opponets right besides you. From there it's just guessing what they are gonna do. B2 is understated tool for some match ups. the leaping over head is fairly quick and it leaps over low wake up optiona such as slide. f34 for lows and even just command grab their wake up if they are afraid to hit anything. And of course block is a good choice if u think they gonna wake up ex move. Generally when I get lvl 3 command grab I try to burn the buff to get the meter or health. because lvl 3 sun god choke throws so far away it's hard to pressure them. I do feel like they Need to either buff the dmg of the command grab or increase the health and special meter gain from burning the buff. Another suggest for those who have a hard time in the neutral game is to use b32. The round house into shoulder charge is half screen distance and safe on block. I generally go for a d1 after they block it into SGC.
 
L

LeeVanDam

Sun God Advocate
Stone_Cold_Dan said:
Also here's some corner low hit corner tech I've found. Works fairly well with sun god.
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With the blood offering and sun ray set up, are you able to block in the event they wake up with an EX special that has armor or do you have to commit to an attack in order to stuff wake up attacks?
 
Stone_Cold_Dan

Stone_Cold_Dan

Noob
Unfortunately as I found out a few hours later I'd they tech roll the knock down and then use a wake up ex move on the sun ray it's punishable. As for blood offering I'm not sure. Its not as viable as I thot for corner pressure. it's only like a frame or 2 away from being able to block so not everyone will immediately (or at least I hope) wake up with a move every time. very situational. If you've scared your opponent into blocking on wake up it works Wel. Don't use it every time for sure
 
K

Khan 013

Noob
Guys don't know if y'all know this but with b14 u can cancel sun god choke on block or if it hits u r plus 5 to continue pressure
 
Belial

Belial

Noob
Sadly, nothing will make Sun or Blood God "work" even if all specials are removed and only db1 is left for war god he'd still be better than other variations.
 
number2headband

number2headband

Noob
For funsies, I've been doi
LeeVanDam said:
Best part about d+1 is if you do d+1 again they're still in throw range, or you can push them out further with d+4. Dash SGC connects more often than one would think.
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I've been mixing some cancels in on my d4's for either sunray or disc on hit. If you neutral ray, it lands right on the enemy and makes them want to make a quick mobility option or you can close ray for heals. Ray setups are risky though. Mixing it up with disc makes the enemy less likely to charge you immediately.
 
KeyserSoze

KeyserSoze

Fabled Villain
Ok, so my opinion of Kotal's Sun God variation has changed drastically over the last week or so. I started the game fully committed to Blood God and War God, but lately, my eyes have really opened up to the ultimate utility and irrefutable swag that Sun Choke brings to the table. People just don't know how to deal with command grab pressure. They start doing silly things once they are afraid to block and you can really open them up with your quick-hitting punish strings like 114 and F1B2. I hit SO many more 114s in Sun God than I do in Blood God. If your opponents are hesitant to block against the highest damaging character in the game . . . that can cause them some problems :)

War God is still clearly his most competitively viable variation, but I'm starting to sense that Sun God is also viable while easily being the most fun. I STILL sincerely believe that Sun Choke should do more raw damage and that Sun Ray/God Ray should have slightly decreased start-up frames. Those two things would make Sun God extremely competitive, IMO.

p.s. And of course, utilizing parry correctly is CRUCIAL to making Sun God or Blood God viable.
 
K

Khan 013

Noob
KeyserSoze said:
Ok, so my opinion of Kotal's Sun God variation has changed drastically over the last week or so. I started the game fully committed to Blood God and War God, but lately, my eyes have really opened up to the ultimate utility and irrefutable swag that Sun Choke brings to the table. People just don't know how to deal with command grab pressure. They start doing silly things once they are afraid to block and you can really open them up with your quick-hitting punish strings like 114 and F1B2. I hit SO many more 114s in Sun God than I do in Blood God. If your opponents are hesitant to block against the highest damaging character in the game . . . that can cause them some problems :)

War God is still clearly his most competitively viable variation, but I'm starting to sense that Sun God is also viable while easily being the most fun. I STILL sincerely believe that Sun Choke should do more raw damage and that Sun Ray/God Ray should have slightly decreased start-up frames. Those two things would make Sun God extremely competitive, IMO.

p.s. And of course, utilizing parry correctly is CRUCIAL to making Sun God or Blood God viable.
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K

Khan 013

Noob
Damn straight but the one thing I want to change the most is in stage 3 sun God choke u have the ability to throw them the direction u want
 
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