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General/Other - D'Vorah Proposed D'Vorah Buffs

Does NRS need to give more attention to weaker variations?

  • Yes, all variations of a character should be tournament viable.

  • No, just use the strongest one.

Results are only viewable after voting.
HoneyBee

HoneyBee

Flash God Lord
Phosferrax said:
Every variation should not be viable. Every variation should have a use (specific mu), but I don't think that every character needs every variation to be viable all the time.

The reason the other 2 are weak in comparison is because SQ is so strong. That's the problem with some characters; they've got a decent genera. design, but there is one variation which handles pretty much everything better than the other 2. Honestly if you want to buff the other two then SQ should almost be nerfed. There is no reason to use the other 2 not because they are bad, but because SQ is so good.
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I don't think a variation that is in the top 7-9 range requires nerfs. My philosophy is to bring up lower tiers instead of nerfing top tiers. There's very few things in this game that I think are broken or need nerfs.

The other variations are weak because they lack the proper tools to compete at a high level, not because SQ is too strong. Being in the 7-9 range does not make a character too strong.
 
cR WoundCowboy

cR WoundCowboy

WoundCowbae <3
HoneyBee said:
Now before TYM crucifies me for creating this thread, I am NOT referring to Swarm Queen D'Vorah and that is more or less a point in itself as to why these buffs are necessary. When we talk about a character, we often think about their strongest variation and completely disregard the weaker ones. Is that acceptable? I think all variations of every character should be tournament viable and unfortunately that's not the case for D'Vorah. The same thing could be said for characters such as Gunslinger EB, Hat Trick KL, MOS Raiden etc etc but I'm just going to focus on D'Vorah.

Right now, I think it's safe to say that D'Vorah's lack of a good armor move to wake up, get out of pressure, punish gaps etc. is her biggest weakness. Her EX Ovipositor is her only armor move which has 20 frames of start up, does 10.60% damage on hit and is -12 on block with little to no push back. A good armor move is something that should be available to her in at least one different variation.

Venomous

- Universal change where opponents can no longer mash reversal specials while holding the block button. (This would help a lot against characters like Shinnok for example that can just mash hell spark while blocking bug spray for a guaranteed punish.)
- EX Ovipositor start up is reduced from 20 start up frames to 12
- EX Ovipositor now launches the opponent
- EX Ovipositor on block is now -15 up from -12

Brood Mother

- Bug Blast (projectile) start up is reduced from 28 frames to 20 frames
- Low Krawler cool down reduced from 5 seconds to 3 seconds
- Low Krawler can now be held back and released when the player chooses

Those are all the changes I think are necessary to make D'Vorah's other variations tournament viable. As it stands now, her only useful variation in a tournament setting is Swarm Queen which I currently rank in the 7-9 range. It's good and I wouldn't ask for buffs for that variation nor do I think it requires any nerfs. It's perfect as is.
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By the 7-9 range you actually mean 1-3, right?
 
Phosferrax

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
HoneyBee said:
I don't think a variation that is in the top 7-9 range requires nerfs. My philosophy is to bring up lower tiers instead of nerfing top tiers. There's very few things in this game that I think are broken or need nerfs.

The other variations are weak because they lack the proper tools to compete at a high level, not because SQ is too strong. Being in the 7-9 range does not make a character too strong.
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If SQ didnt hit like a tank + the launching 50/50 the other 2 variations would fair a lot better.

Mainly, they are 'bad' because SQ is so good.
 
VAAAAAAAAN

VAAAAAAAAN

Noob
HoneyBee said:
Now before TYM crucifies me for creating this thread, I am NOT referring to Swarm Queen D'Vorah and that is more or less a point in itself as to why these buffs are necessary. When we talk about a character, we often think about their strongest variation and completely disregard the weaker ones. Is that acceptable? I think all variations of every character should be tournament viable and unfortunately that's not the case for D'Vorah. The same thing could be said for characters such as Gunslinger EB, Hat Trick KL, MOS Raiden etc etc but I'm just going to focus on D'Vorah.

Right now, I think it's safe to say that D'Vorah's lack of a good armor move to wake up, get out of pressure, punish gaps etc. is her biggest weakness. Her EX Ovipositor is her only armor move which has 20 frames of start up, does 10.60% damage on hit and is -12 on block with little to no push back. A good armor move is something that should be available to her in at least one different variation.

Venomous

- Universal change where opponents can no longer mash reversal specials while holding the block button. (This would help a lot against characters like Shinnok for example that can just mash hell spark while blocking bug spray for a guaranteed punish.)
- EX Ovipositor start up is reduced from 20 start up frames to 12
- EX Ovipositor now launches the opponent
- EX Ovipositor on block is now -15 up from -12

Brood Mother

- Bug Blast (projectile) start up is reduced from 28 frames to 20 frames
- Low Krawler cool down reduced from 5 seconds to 3 seconds
- Low Krawler can now be held back and released when the player chooses

Those are all the changes I think are necessary to make D'Vorah's other variations tournament viable. As it stands now, her only useful variation in a tournament setting is Swarm Queen which I currently rank in the 7-9 range. It's good and I wouldn't ask for buffs for that variation nor do I think it requires any nerfs. It's perfect as is.
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I agree with all of this. Basically exactly how I thought it should be lol even to the launching ex ovipositor and the ability to hold krawler. Though, it does seem a little odd to make the one universal move, outside of air throw, different in these two variations. If they get new armor moves it might make more sense to make them the moves that swarm queen doesn't have access to, for consistency sake. Maybe giving wake up bug spray and bug blast 1 hit of armor with the option of a full energy dash cancel. Or just making the on move they share, spawning puddle, 2 hits of armor so it can retain its slow start up but you still get a launcher at the end. Another idea, which is just wishful thinking, is that they get ride of the f42 string all together and just turn the 2 part of it into a low crawl special. No ex version though. I know it'd probably be too strong but the crawling animation just fits d'vorahs aesthetic so well.
 
haketh

haketh

Noob
Phosferrax said:
If SQ didnt hit like a tank + the launching 50/50 the other 2 variations would fair a lot better.

Mainly, they are 'bad' because SQ is so good.
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Broodmother legit has problems with doing what it wants to do because the projectile is so slow plus the Crawler is unreliable

Also holy fuck did this have to turn into a fucking obnoxious YOU'RE DOWNPLAYING NO YOU'RE UPPLAYING! Shut the fuck up Christ, take that somwhere else.
 
Phosferrax

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
HoneyBee said:
By that logic you can say SQ is so good because her other variations are so bad.
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No you can't. The logic doesn't work in reverse.

The simple thing comes down to SQ doing 30+% of her safe 50/50, whilst the other two do much less damage for increased risk/less reliability. Why bother? It's the same with DF Liu Kang.
 
cR WoundCowboy

cR WoundCowboy

WoundCowbae <3
HoneyBee said:
You're high if you sincerely think a character without a reliable armor move is top 3. You also think BS Shinnok is barely top 10 so there's not much else that needs to be said.
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That is basically her only flaw. She has broken footsies, a ridiculous run, huge damage, a footsie string that gives her a 50-50 and SAFE mixups. There is no chance she is outside of top 5.

Also, I think Shinnok is top 10 and that he is likely top 5.
 
Phosferrax

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
haketh said:
Broodmother legit has problems with doing what it wants to do because the projectile is so slow plus the Crawler is unreliable

Also holy fuck did this have to turn into a fucking obnoxious YOU'RE DOWNPLAYING NO YOU'RE UPPLAYING! Shut the fuck up Christ, take that somwhere else.
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It may do, but what ever buffs it is likely to receive, it will probably never be better/more useful than SQ.
 
WidowPuppy

WidowPuppy

Attack pekingese
Love HoneyBee [He's one of my favorite players], Love D'Vorah, she's my secondary and one of my favorite characters. I believe characters weaker variations should be evened out. With some characters [Ah ah ah BSSHINNOK, sorry I had to sneeze], I think they need certain variations toned down. I would go with prioritizing characters/variations in need of the nerfbat first, followed by buffs for characters that cannot consistently make it out of pools even when played or eventually dropped by great players.

I do wonder how many more replies this will get than let's say some random making a Jacqui Briggs Buffs thread?
 
haketh

haketh

Noob
Phosferrax said:
It may do, but what ever buffs it is likely to receive, it will probably never be better/more useful than SQ.
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I don't think anyone wants it to be better just more complete and able to compete. Only D'Vorah variation I'm interested in is broodmother
 
FlappyDaniel

FlappyDaniel

Snappin' spines all day e'ry day.
haketh said:
I don't think anyone wants it to be better just more complete and able to compete. Only D'Vorah variation I'm interested in is broodmother
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Minnesota has a BM that made top 64 EVO. The bug doesn't seem unreliable at all when he uses it, I'm curious what you mean, maybe something I can exploit for now :D
 
Groove Heaven

Groove Heaven

Jobber-baron
Agreed. If NRS doesn't start buffing weaker variations then tbh the whole system was a mistake.

Gunslinger is for sure awful, it can still compete because it's still EB but the tools it adds are so superficial it's not even fun to mess around with.
 
buyacushun

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
Fair idea of balance, reasonable requests, gives reasons for those requests, nice thread. But we all know @HoneyBee just wants to freely switch between his characters' 3 variations.;)

As for making variations better, NRS should have just done 2. 3 seems to have spread some characters too thin. There isn't enough change in normals, strings, frames and overall base character design for some that they end up with one great variation and the other 2 are just "ok". This next patch coming up is taking so long I can't but wonder what's going to happen to the Laos, Shinnoks, Lui Kangs and the JAcquis, Goros.
 
haketh

haketh

Noob
FlappyDaniel said:
Minnesota has a BM that made top 64 EVO. The bug doesn't seem unreliable at all when he uses it, I'm curious what you mean, maybe something I can exploit for now :D
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It has a habit of freezing in place and being stuck there randomly, happened to me a few times when I've played her in tournament.
 
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