General/Other - Sub-Zero Possible changes to Sub-Zero's Variations

[crosshair271]

Cryomancer needs a buff. I say he should be able to run cancel the Ice Hammer so he can do more block string pressure and 50/50 pressure. This idea came from Scorpion's fireball run cancel strings. His sword attacks need to have a good use like poking or higher damage. They are completely useless aside from his uppercut. This is suppose to be his "offensive" variation yet all he does is F4, 2, 1+2 and MB Hammer. I wish he had Ice shower for this variation to lay more pressure. Maybe have the Shower hit overhead to create unblockables.

Unbreakable needs to have the Ice Aura input changed to a D, D, 1. It is still easy to input and it allows him to have the Ice Burst. Ice Burst is in 2/3 of his variations and that makes no sense. Also Ice Barrier does not stop jumping attacks so he needs Ice Burst to anti air. This style is still lacking and I wish he would get back Ice Shower or Ice Puddle. Since this is a defensive style I think Puddle suits it better. If he did get Puddle make it like MK2/UMK3 Puddle where they slip if they don't jump off it.

Grandmaster is tricky. The Ice Klone collisions need to be fixed because projectiles and jumping attacks connect correctly but not all ground normals. A lot of limbs pass through. I think this has to do with the hurtbox being behind the hitbox of the characters limb. Not the actual Klone collision. Something like this.

As far as the go away on block, I feel that needs to leave because it doesn't help ALL characters equally. It mostly makes his bad matchups worse such as Kenshi, Ermac, Scorpion, Raiden. It does help for when he moves in front of the Klone and people try to open him up so if it stays then fine. Lastly I'd like an enhanced Klone Toss. Give him an armor when he tosses it, maybe faster startup too. Although I would like it to be Klone Push where the Klone slides across the ground and freezes the opponent on hit/touch, on block a little bit of chip damage. This idea came from the movie 14 Blades where Donnie Yen was pushing the statues around to fight. At :29 seconds.

Some General Gameplay Changes.

Why is it MKX has no hitbox viewer like MK9? They put all these other great tools for competitive use but not the hitboxes. They should definitely put that back.

I'd prefer variation switch to replace the useless stance switch button. Theoretically the first person to win a game wins the match. My theory. A beats B, B beats C, C beats A. So P1A beats P2B. P2 counterpicks with P2C. It's now 1 to 1. But now P1 gets to counterpick and chooses P1B. P1 wins. This would be fixed if we could change variations in game instead of being locked to a variation and potentially lose by a landslide. You could do a double blind pick but I feel this would add more depth and intense technical play.

If you have ideas to add to this or explanations I'm all ears. I know some of my requests are a little out there but I tried to be reasonable.

 

[Angeluso]

I agree Unbreakable could use Ice burst for a good amount of reasons you mentioned. Heck, even no variation Sub-Zero has Ice Burst.

 

[-narshkajke-]

I think the reason why there's no iceburst is because the command for iceburst already being used for frozen aura

 

[virtiqaL]

I think the reason why there's no iceburst is because the command for iceburst already being used for frozen aura

Yes, I'm sure that is most definitely the reason that Unbreakable doesn't have Ice Burst... because they could've never just given Frozen Aura another input...

I can just imagine the NRS devs now, wracking their brains trying to figure out this dilemma.

 

[crosshair271]

Yes, I'm sure that is most definitely the reason that Unbreakable doesn't have Ice Burst... because they could've never just given Frozen Aura another input...

I can just imagine the NRS devs now, wracking their brains trying to figure out this dilemma.

Which is why I said it would work if they changed the aura input to D, D, 1. They obviously didn't think this through and did a half ass job.

 

[T-rayray]

I agree with unbreakable. As an unbreakable main I feel like his options are so limited as the go to defensive character. I'll also wouldn't mine to have mb.Ice parry properly parry jumping attacks. Just a thought.

 

[crosshair271]

I agree with unbreakable. As an unbreakable main I feel like his options are so limited as the go to defensive character. I'll also wouldn't mine to have mb.Ice parry properly parry jumping attacks. Just a thought.

That is a fair trade off to me. Use meter to parry jumping attacks. They should do both but as a balance I could agree with it not parrying jumping attacks and you get the ICE BURST to use instead.

 

[EmoScoobyDoo]

Something else for unbreakable, make it so you still gain meter on block with ice aura active

 

[crosshair271]

Something else for unbreakable, make it so you still gain meter on block with ice aura active

Well I suggested Aura input change to allow Ice Burst and also add Ice Puddle(MK2/UMK3). That should make him significantly better.

 

[ZeZe]

In general for all variation I'd like to see some chip dmg on block added to ice ball for once. Defensive game-play would only benefit.

 

[crosshair271]

In general for all variation I'd like to see some chip dmg on block added to ice ball for once. Defensive game-play would only benefit.

Yeah I can't argue with that. A small amount of chip on block. Although I would like some damage on hit and on block since it scales the combos so hard. So many other characters have capture/freeze states that do damage and they don't scale (Scorpion, Quan Chi, Shinnok, Ermac) they get 35-40%. Sub-Zero had a double freeze in Grandmaster during the beta but they took it out. Klone freeze then Iceball. Yet Scorpion still gets his ARISE! + Spear mid screen 40% with no meter.

 

[RM Ree]

I mentioned in another thread how cryomancer should have a holdable/ dash cancellable ice ball for both jump baits and added pressure, then make it a mid like Kano'd knives. I think ice shower and ice puddle added to cryomancer would be amazing.

GM obviously needs the ice clone collision issue fixed. Everything else seems fine. Maybe if we shatter or throw an ex ice statue, it should do more damage. Ex clone toss would be cool if it had some armor or functioned as a freeze like previously mentioned.

Unbreakable needs the ability to freeze again after the parry and agreed, could really use the aura input adjusted to dd1 to allow for ice burst. What would be REALLY cool is if there were certain strings which allowed for higher launches/ more creative and damaging combos that were only activated for a short time after SZ lands the parry. Dare I say it, give him an unbreakable command throw ender where he head butts the shit out of the opponent, then re-applies his frozen mask with a little taunt dialogue before setting back to neutral.

 

[XxTheGoblinX]

I want the ice puddle for unbreakable and it can link with a iceball for a bigger combo. I also want Grandmaster to be able to make clones in mid air.

 

[ZeZe]

In light of recent 2 patches with completely IGNORE Sub-Zero's variations let's do some summing up (and correct me if I'm wrong or discuss). Here it goes:

Cryo:
- Slow and punishable normal hammer, which makes it useless. Needs some rework.
- MB hammer is good, but Sub lacks in meter building department, therefore some adjustments there.
- Cold blooded combo ender should be more advantageous for Sub.
- Air hammer is new ground freeze from MK9 - U.S.E.L.E.S.S! Needs some rework.

Unbreakable:
- Too low damage in general.
- Re-work parry to be more reliable against jump-ins
- Faster parry recovery.
- Add ice burst because why not? This variation needs more tools to compete with Cryo and GM.

Grandmaster:
- Ice klone not reliable. If you cancel into MB Ice Klone it will randomly come out with normal clone.
- positioning is very strange, in the corner normal clone will also sometimes whiff and sometimes come out.
- at least one safe clone cancel. From f4,2 for example.
- personally I think making clone go away on block was the worst idea ever.

General:
- Add chip damage to ice ball on block.

Keep this thread up guys. This is like evolution: if your character is not evolving with each patch, he's degrading. It cannot happen again to Subby!

 

[RM Ree]

I really like the idea of ice ball doing a little bit of damage. I mean how many other capture states are there in this game that all do damage? Ermac, Scorpion, Quan Chi, Tanya, they all have specials that far out class the ice ball. Either make it do chip OR make it scale better. I'd be happy with either, but I'd like to add, I don't think he /needs/ this. It's just fun to think about.

 

[Savage8-8]

I do think Unbreakable and Cryo need a little adjustment. But i believe that having the ice parry freeze jump ins is overkill. The parry already freezes armored moves and has a 6 frame start up. If it were able to freeze jump ins it would be better than the ice clone. I agree with decreasing the recovery frames on the parry though. And the damage should be a little higher. My suggestion would be to give Unbreakable the dagger ender for the cold blooded combo.

As for cryo there does need to be some advantage on the cold blooded combo. And the ice hammer should be faster or as fast as the ex ice hammer.
Grandmaster is fine as long as the hitbox issues get addressed.

 

[crosshair271]

Cryo:
- Slow and punishable normal hammer, which makes it useless. Needs some rework.
- MB hammer is good, but Sub lacks in meter building department, therefore some adjustments there.
- Cold blooded combo ender should be more advantageous for Sub.
- Air hammer is new ground freeze from MK9 - U.S.E.L.E.S.S! Needs some rework.

Unbreakable:
- Too low damage in general.
- Re-work parry to be more reliable against jump-ins
- Faster parry recovery.
- Add ice burst because why not? This variation needs more tools to compete with Cryo and GM.

Grandmaster:
- Ice klone not reliable. If you cancel into MB Ice Klone it will randomly come out with normal clone.
- positioning is very strange, in the corner normal clone will also sometimes whiff and sometimes come out.
- at least one safe clone cancel. From f4,2 for example.
- personally I think making clone go away on block was the worst idea ever.

General:
- Add chip damage to ice ball on block.

Cryo:
- Run cancel suggestion makes Hammer viable.
- Run cancel pressure strings will give him meter for MB Hammer.
- Yes I agree with plus frames.
- Completely useless as there are no cross-ups but maybe if it hits overhead and acts like a ground pound.

Unbreakable:
- Yes too low especially with freeze scaling although I feel no scaling or less from Parry freeze since it is more risky than Klone. Ice puddle addition should help open people up for damage.
- Suggested Aura input change to D,D,1 would allow for Ice Burst to anti air.
- Possibly faster recovery.
- Aura input change allows Ice burst yeah. It's in 2/3 variations and it makes no sense. It's even in No variation.

Grandmaster:
- Obvious input glitch needs to be fixed
- Possible Klone collision box is touching opponents hurtbox when it happens.
- F+4,2 is the best string for safe Klone cancel. I'd be happy with that and already F+4.
- It obviously wasn't meant to be that way and I feel it needs to go too. It only really helps disjointed characters, teleporters and Kenshi. It does help if Sub walks in front but then you can hit him and on hit it disappears. It defeats the purpose of a Klone "trap", baiting the opponent to press something then they run into the Klone.
- Other characters have summoning moves and they either don't go away on hit or block or both. Sonya - Drone: On hit or block it doesn't go away and can be used to interrupt pressure strings or combos. Quan Chi - Bat: On block does not go away and can be used to interrupt pressure strings. I'm sick and tired of Sub-Zero getting special treatment for being fixed yet other characters have the exact same thing and aren't touched. Either make it equalized or not at all.
- I also found his Klone Shatter + Ice Burst don't combo correctly in certain scenarios. It drops the burst hit/damage and counts the Klone Shatter only.

General:
- I was playing UMK3:TE and they gave Sub some Ice Ball damage on hit and on block. It's a nice little buff and honestly I think it's warranted if his combos scale so hard. Freezer burn hurts and damages irl. So many other characters have capture states and don't scale, in fact a lot do damage. I'm looking at you Scorpion, Mr. 38% no bar 40% 1 bar with a plus frame re-stand.

 

[matmusada]

Cryo:
- Run cancel suggestion makes Hammer viable.
- Run cancel pressure strings will give him meter for MB Hammer.
- Yes I agree with plus frames.
- Completely useless as there are no cross-ups but maybe if it hits overhead and acts like a ground pound.

Unbreakable:
- Yes too low especially with freeze scaling although I feel no scaling or less from Parry freeze since it is more risky than Klone. Ice puddle addition should help open people up for damage.
- Suggested Aura input change to D,D,1 would allow for Ice Burst to anti air.
- Possibly faster recovery.
- Aura input change allows Ice burst yeah. It's in 2/3 variations and it makes no sense. It's even in No variation.

Grandmaster:
- Obvious input glitch needs to be fixed
- Possible Klone collision box is touching opponents hurtbox when it happens.
- F+4,2 is the best string for safe Klone cancel. I'd be happy with that and already F+4.
- It obviously wasn't meant to be that way and I feel it needs to go too. It only really helps disjointed characters, teleporters and Kenshi. It does help if Sub walks in front but then you can hit him and on hit it disappears. It defeats the purpose of a Klone "trap", baiting the opponent to press something then they run into the Klone.
- Other characters have summoning moves and they either don't go away on hit or block or both. Sonya - Drone: On hit or block it doesn't go away and can be used to interrupt pressure strings or combos. Quan Chi - Bat: On block does not go away and can be used to interrupt pressure strings. I'm sick and tired of Sub-Zero getting special treatment for being fixed yet other characters have the exact same thing and aren't touched. Either make it equalized or not at all.
- I also found his Klone Shatter + Ice Burst don't combo correctly in certain scenarios. It drops the burst hit/damage and counts the Klone Shatter only.

General:
- I was playing UMK3:TE and they gave Sub some Ice Ball damage on hit and on block. It's a nice little buff and honestly I think it's warranted if his combos scale so hard. Freezer burn hurts and damages irl. So many other characters have capture states and don't scale, in fact a lot do damage. I'm looking at you Scorpion, Mr. 38% no bar 40% 1 bar with a plus frame re-stand.

I agree with all f these changes as well, especially Cryomancer. The problem it seems with Sub-Zero's variations in general seems to be that they're in need of bug fixes((i.e. wonky clone physics in GM)), weren't pushed hard enough in the initial development((Cryomancer)), or just plain lack viable options where needed((Unbreakable)).
In the case of Cryo-Sub, the damage boost to certain strings is nice but the additional strings itself are as mentioned earlier are well...rather useless. I see no reason to 1,1,1, over 1,1, into d,f,2. I want to both use and like F+1,2,2 but I see no reason to use it over 2,4,2 which is the superior launcher and does the same as the aforementioned string. All of these added strings look cool but have no use over his more prominent universal strings.
This variation is meant to be more offensive-minded but it offers nothing but a few tertiary combo strings and some added damage which is going to come solely from Cold Blooded. If you want more damage then you need to MB Hammer as you said. What ends up happening is that you're doing the same combo string which becomes boring after a while. Which leads me to my next point in there's no fun factor. Between very linear mix-up options, extra damage that's meter-dependent, no real options for building meter, I can see why Cryomancer is passed over for GM.
What's funny is that i was experimenting with Scorpions variations just out of boredom and despite not liking the character from a narrative standpoint his variations are fun and straight-forward across the board. If anything the developers could look at Scorpion's Ninjitsu variation and apply some similar principles to Cryo-Sub.
-Improve the variation-specific strings and give use more reason to use them over his usual combo strings.
-The Ice Hammer should connect as a full ender, giving us a viable ender without. The long "splat" that it provides could then lead to some solid mix-up options. ((I'm fine with MB.Hammer still functioning as it currently does.))
-I was reading another thread on the topic of Cryo a while ago and they made a suggestion to have Cold Blood actually build meter which would only aid this already meter-dependent build.
-I think that the descent of Air Hammer should be sped up rather than provide a delay in his landing. Something akin to the triangle jump that's quite common within Capcom's V.S. series but within reasonable scope of the game.

With that said, I'm not looking for Cyro to be some overpowered, brain-dead variation with absurd damage and 50/50 mix-ups. I want quite the opposite actually in that I want a character that requires effort, is viable, and most importantly fun to play. I claim that any of my suggestions are absolute but I feel that they're a step in the right direction at least.