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Question - Sun God How can Sun God get better?

im kinda new to kotal, i dedicated whole month to learning sun god, because i wanted to try grabblers and sun god looked extremely fun to play.
the very first thing that started to annoy me was inability to link most of the stuff into sun gods main tool - choke. well, ok, i said to myself, if i was able to link choke even from hit, sun god would be extremely op. so i closed my eyes on it and kept on practicing.
then i switched to war god simply out of the interest and oh my god it was a breath of fresh air. everything that poor sun god does, war god can do safer, faster and twice better. i simply dont see myself wasting any more time on a variation that simply lacks stuff. pokes on block into choke is neat and all, but sun god shouldnt be punished because of successful hit on opponent. unless choke starts to connect from at least some of the strings on hit, i simply dont see this variation having competitive value. this is not how grabblers should be played and this is probably why nrs suffers so much with whole grabbler mentality attitude. they're trying to do it their way, and it simply doesnt work.
 

Forbidden_Donut

"You think you bad? Pffft, You ain't bad.."
im kinda new to kotal, i dedicated whole month to learning sun god, because i wanted to try grabblers and sun god looked extremely fun to play.
the very first thing that started to annoy me was inability to link most of the stuff into sun gods main tool - choke. well, ok, i said to myself, if i was able to link choke even from hit, sun god would be extremely op. so i closed my eyes on it and kept on practicing.
then i switched to war god simply out of the interest and oh my god it was a breath of fresh air. everything that poor sun god does, war god can do safer, faster and twice better. i simply dont see myself wasting any more time on a variation that simply lacks stuff. pokes on block into choke is neat and all, but sun god shouldnt be punished because of successful hit on opponent. unless choke starts to connect from at least some of the strings on hit, i simply dont see this variation having competitive value. this is not how grabblers should be played and this is probably why nrs suffers so much with whole grabbler mentality attitude. they're trying to do it their way, and it simply doesnt work.
So you've played the character for a month and you think you know how he needs to be played and what tools he's lacking? Cmon man. I've been playing this variation since launch and I can say with the utmost confidence, he doesn't need a single buff. Only thing he needs is his Hitbox issues to be fixed against ferra torr. Also, you do realize meter burning the choke causes it to connect on hit as well as gives the choke armor. B1ex choke is one of the best oki tools in the game. it's stupid good. Sun god is JUST AS GOOD AS WAR GOD. When will people see the light? :(
 

TheGangstaFace

Psn, Xbox, Twitter: TheGangstaFace
I play SG in matchups where the big damage is most useful and you don't have a huge need for armor. Against mileena is a good one. She is a pain in the ass and hard to get in on, but I have parry to deal with sais and when I get in I get great damage from it. Also against Kitana or even kano.

In an effort to be transparent, I also play SG as a main over war God because its so much more fun, but those are the reasons I like it more in certain matchups

Also b1xxEXchoke breaks most wakeup armor, I believe anything over 10 frames that doesn't low profile. And 1xxEXchoke is an even faster version of the same thing.
Yeah i was thinking the Mileena mu. Also the fact she always has breaker and Sun Choke gives a lot of unbreakable damage
 

Slavaslave

Professional Casual
So you've played the character for a month and you think you know how he needs to be played and what tools he's lacking? Cmon man. I've been playing this variation since launch and I can say with the utmost confidence, he doesn't need a single buff. Only thing he needs is his Hitbox issues to be fixed against ferra torr. Also, you do realize meter burning the choke causes it to connect on hit as well as gives the choke armor. B1ex choke is one of the best oki tools in the game. it's stupid good. Sun god is JUST AS GOOD AS WAR GOD. When will people see the light? :(
While I mostly agree with you donut, I believe one thing needs buffed. The whiffing of grab against a lot of neutral moves. It's most obvious on wakeup, an example being Bo's OH->unblock able string. On wakeup if I try to armor choke and he throws that out the grab whiff and I eat the string. There's quite a few of these strings from other characters that make no sense.

I'm not saying moves that specifically low profile should get hit, I'm saying we need to normalize the grab hit/whiff.
 

TheGangstaFace

Psn, Xbox, Twitter: TheGangstaFace
So you've played the character for a month and you think you know how he needs to be played and what tools he's lacking? Cmon man. I've been playing this variation since launch and I can say with the utmost confidence, he doesn't need a single buff. Only thing he needs is his Hitbox issues to be fixed against ferra torr. Also, you do realize meter burning the choke causes it to connect on hit as well as gives the choke armor. B1ex choke is one of the best oki tools in the game. it's stupid good. Sun god is JUST AS GOOD AS WAR GOD. When will people see the light? :(
Lol Sun God is definitely not as good as War God.
 
So you've played the character for a month and you think you know how he needs to be played and what tools he's lacking?
absolutely. as a matter of fact, as ive mentioned, it took me less than a day of random gameplay to see glaring problems, not only with sun god, but with other grabblers, like ravenous mileena. after 1 month i was almost positive in my first assumptions.
Sun god is JUST AS GOOD AS WAR GOD. When will people see the light?
never. because sun god is inferior to other two variations.
i dont have to even mention or explain this, but apparently i have to, look for 1 year of tournament footage and you will see that statistically very few people play some of the variations. sun god is one of them. he not only never been in top 8 at any of major (maybe once, or twice), but very rarely placed even top 16 and not because he is not fun, he is super fun. he is just not competitive. you can argue with this how much you want, man, but statistics are statistics.
 

Slavaslave

Professional Casual
absolutely. as a matter of fact, as ive mentioned, it took me less than a day of random gameplay to see glaring problems, not only with sun god, but with other grabblers, like ravenous mileena. after 1 month i was almost positive in my first assumptions.

never. because sun god is inferior to other two variations.
i dont have to even mention or explain this, but apparently i have to, look for 1 year of tournament footage and you will see that statistically very few people play some of the variations. sun god is one of them. he not only never been in top 8 at any of major (maybe once, or twice), but very rarely placed even top 16 and not because he is not fun, he is super fun. he is just not competitive. you can argue with this how much you want, man, but statistics are statistics.
While I agree that war god is the best variation because this is a game of pressure and 5050s your statement doesn't really prove much. There are a lot of factors that play into this. SG is a grappler, which is a unique playstyle that may not suit many tournament level players. Kotal is a new character so you have to take into account character loyalty from mk9 and other games. And because of the lack of a SG player base the variation is less "figured out" than others. For example I just found out about the b1 OS for sun choke today.
 

Forbidden_Donut

"You think you bad? Pffft, You ain't bad.."
absolutely. as a matter of fact, as ive mentioned, it took me less than a day of random gameplay to see glaring problems, not only with sun god, but with other grabblers, like ravenous mileena. after 1 month i was almost positive in my first assumptions.

never. because sun god is inferior to other two variations.
i dont have to even mention or explain this, but apparently i have to, look for 1 year of tournament footage and you will see that statistically very few people play some of the variations. sun god is one of them. he not only never been in top 8 at any of major (maybe once, or twice), but very rarely placed even top 16 and not because he is not fun, he is super fun. he is just not competitive. you can argue with this how much you want, man, but statistics are statistics.
First of all, there is absolutely no way in hell that Sun God is worse than Blood God. Blood God is good now, but Sun God is better.

I'll gladly play you and show you why sun god is good, and I genuinely mean this in a friendly way lol. If you don't bait and condition neutral or crossover jump attempts with fake tick throws, and punish with ex air grab into 42%, you aren't playing sun god right. If you don't hit people with meaty b1 into ex choke to blow up armor attempts, you're not playing sun god right. If you're not hitting people with meaty attacks after a level three choke (off which Kotal is plus a fucking billion), you're not playing sun god right. If you're not anti airing with ex air grab or b1, your not playing him right. If you're not using his regular and ex sacrifice to get breaker or health back, you're not playing sun god right. If you're not charging up (fdb3) after a throw, you're not playing sun god right. And don't even get me started on parry. KK's parry is one of the most underused tools on all of MKX. Parry the gap in Cassies B1 string and punish with 114 EX air grab into 50+% and see if she doesn't start playing scared. Parry War Gods sword cancels just once and punish with a full combo and tell me if he's not terrified to do it again. I've punished a single low Sword with one EX parry into 62%, and its really easy too. Even if you don't have bar after the parry, B122 choke is 31%!! And you get the plus one billion afterwards too.

I've never seen anyone, besides alucard, play sun god at a high level, and he's gotten multiple top 16s and top 8s with him. Also, illusions has a dope sun god, but he mains like five characters and always switches. And sun god not making top whatever at a tournament means nothing. Sun God is underrepresented. Nobody plays him. Jax is criminally underrepresented, and thus gets almost no top placements, is he bad too? How about HQT? How about Ravenous Mileena? GM sub? A list Cage? These are all variations that rarely get top 8s and yet, most people consider them really good. In the case of Cage, possibly top 5.

When the top tiers in this game get nerfed (as they are now) Sun God is slowly and surely getting better and better. If Sun God gets buffed, he could become broken and then we're back at square one. Sun God is perfect the way he is (sans a couple small fixes with hitbox issues), he isnt broken and hes nowhere near bad. Why cant that just be good enough for everyone?
 

Slavaslave

Professional Casual
He has better mixups, range, wakeups, oki, and he can play safer. No way he's not better
Better mixups: yes.
Range: kinda, but I don't know who is throwing raw swords out in neutral.
Wakeups: definitely, but debatable if grab whiffs were fixed (not against jump/low profile).
Oki: kinda. SG has the grab on wakeup option for 20% when charged and its definitely underused.
Safer play: not really, something like a third of the cast has a way to punish OH sword and low sword is full combo punishable. When you figure out how to fuzzy them it's pretty simple to punish making WG less safe.
 

Forbidden_Donut

"You think you bad? Pffft, You ain't bad.."
He has better mixups, range, wakeups, oki, and he can play safer. No way he's not better
Again, I disagree on almost every point. Sun God has BETTER mixups and Oki, and just as good range. You guess wrong on a tick throw against a good Sun God, and you're eating 40+%. Wakeup wise, War god is better, there's no doubt about that, since he has an armored low and overhead.
 

Forbidden_Donut

"You think you bad? Pffft, You ain't bad.."
How on earth does Sun God have better mix-ups than War God?
A mix-up doesn't have to just be an overhead or a low, you have to guess on all tickable normals with sun God. You have to guess if he's going to grab you or bait the punish attempts. If the sun God is just ticking willy nilly, then yeah it seems like he's got limited mix-up options.
 

Pterodactyl

Plus on block.
I don't think having good tick throws out weighs having cancelable OH's and lows, the former being able to be an armored launcher, on top of the fact that he also has strings with OHs and lows that can be cancelled into the OH and low specials, and saw blade which is a cancelable safe mid that looks vaguely like his OH, and db4 which is a cancelable unblockable that in itself can be cancelled out of.

Having to worry about OHs and lows inside of OHs and lows makes for a better mixup character than good ticks. He doesn't have 50/50 ticks, his tick throws don't lead to full combos from a right guess. SG is strong but it isn't as stronger mix-up variation.
 

TheGangstaFace

Psn, Xbox, Twitter: TheGangstaFace
Better mixups: yes.
Range: kinda, but I don't know who is throwing raw swords out in neutral.
Wakeups: definitely, but debatable if grab whiffs were fixed (not against jump/low profile).
Oki: kinda. SG has the grab on wakeup option for 20% when charged and its definitely underused.
Safer play: not really, something like a third of the cast has a way to punish OH sword and low sword is full combo punishable. When you figure out how to fuzzy them it's pretty simple to punish making WG less safe.
Range: Ex overhead sword??? You can punish people from half screen and throw out random armor and it even hits people in the air.

Oki: Do you know what Oki is? Lol. Oki is when you knock someone down and what the offense is after you knocked them down. War God definitely has better Oki. He does a full combo into 30+ percent midscreen (or 40 depending on the combo) into 30 hit advantage.

Safer play: Block stun in this game makes it inconsistent to punish Kotal and he knocks you away and you have to guess OH, Low, Ex Sword Toss, or the safe mid.
 

TheGangstaFace

Psn, Xbox, Twitter: TheGangstaFace
Again, I disagree on almost every point. Sun God has BETTER mixups and Oki, and just as good range. You guess wrong on a tick throw against a good Sun God, and you're eating 40+%. Wakeup wise, War god is better, there's no doubt about that, since he has an armored low and overhead.
War God can do Mid overhead, mid low low, mid low overhead, mid mid low, mid mid overhead overhead, and mid mid overhead low. Last I checked Sun God isn't nearly as complex with his mixups.

War God has more options on Oki

Range??? Does Sun God have a sword suddenly? Lol

Sun Gods command grab doesn't do 40% lol. It does 19 at level 3
 

Slavaslave

Professional Casual
Oki: Do you know what Oki is? Lol. .
Yes. Maybe you didn't understand what I meant. You can sun choke on their wakeup.

All characters have this option in a throw, but it is techable and only does 12%, SG isnt and does 20%. Very powerful Oki. As for the +30 after war god combos, please refer to the plus frames on sun choke.

EDIT: Oh, and I didn't even think about SG armor break opportunities. All of which may require a bar, but are pretty much guaranteed as EX choke now connects after a hit.
 

TheGangstaFace

Psn, Xbox, Twitter: TheGangstaFace
Yes. Maybe you didn't understand what I meant. You can sun choke on their wakeup.

All characters have this option in a throw, but it is techable and only does 12%, SG isnt and does 20%. Very powerful Oki. As for the +30 after war god combos, please refer to the plus frames on sun choke.

EDIT: Oh, and I didn't even think about SG armor break opportunities. All of which may require a bar, but are pretty much guaranteed as EX choke now connects after a hit.
Ahh okay and that's true unless they do a move with grab immunity. Also I know SG has a lot of hit advantage but unless you're in the corner he can't take full advantage of it. He has to sprint to you across the screen. WG requires no stamina. You can forward dash then njk for plus frames or go straight into the meaty strings into a mixup or plus frames.

Sidenote: forgot to mention WG does dumb chip

Only thing SG really has over WG is he can deal with zoning a little better and he gets better damage potential
 

Slavaslave

Professional Casual
Sun God upplayers, you guys need to play against better and more "yolo" player
most of my games are online against precisely those players... The beauty of SG is that when you punish yolo players you punish harder than almost anyone in the game.

That being said, I don't agree with @Forbidden_Donut in so much as SG is better than WG, but its not a useless variation, and DEFINITELY better than BG.
 

Forbidden_Donut

"You think you bad? Pffft, You ain't bad.."
most of my games are online against precisely those players... The beauty of SG is that when you punish yolo players you punish harder than almost anyone in the game.

That being said, I don't agree with @Forbidden_Donut in so much as SG is better than WG, but its not a useless variation, and DEFINITELY better than BG.
Never said it was better, I said it's just as good ;)
 

Forbidden_Donut

"You think you bad? Pffft, You ain't bad.."
War God can do Mid overhead, mid low low, mid low overhead, mid mid low, mid mid overhead overhead, and mid mid overhead low. Last I checked Sun God isn't nearly as complex with his mixups.

War God has more options on Oki

Range??? Does Sun God have a sword suddenly? Lol

Sun Gods command grab doesn't do 40% lol. It does 19 at level 3
Lol yes, I know how war god works, but thanks for the clarification anyways, I understand your point. Let's say you hit me with one of his mixups with war god, that's pretty good right, you get a knockdown, you reset the neutral, pressure, etc. If you hit me with ex overhead sword than you get a full combo. all great scenarios, of course.If I tick throw you, I get 19% into plus 50. If I do b1 ex choke, I armor break you. If you block I tick throw you. if you wake up and I don't ex choke because I think your going to njp, than I end up blocking you anyways and just punish. If you think I'm going to tick throw, whether you njp or crossover jump, I'm anti air grabbing you for 42% back into the same blender. If you read the tick then yes, I'm fucked, you get a huge punish, but how's that any different from people reading your ex sword and punishing? Or any sword for that matter. And as far as range, sun God has an immensely better projectile than war god as well as a parry for counter zoning. Ex pizza eats projectiles. Waive your sword around all you want, it won't help you mid screen or farther. So that was my thought process for the range argument. Again, I think he's as good, not necessarily better. Of course war god is better in certain matchups, like sub, or blood god for kitana, I want to make clear that I'm not arguing that SG is as good everytime lol, just overall.