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Ermac's 3,3 (Relinquish)

Kindred

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
I was in the lab trying to find some new effective combos and I started thinking about the Relinquish string (3,3)
I see the 3 being used in other combos but has anyone find anything about it that could be useful?
Doesnt seem safe for pressure but can it be incorporated somewhere?
 
Skkra

Skkra

PSN: Skkra
I'm always someone who looks to lesser-used options in hopes of finding some gold, but I really don't see any use for 3,3.

3,3 is -11 on block, which is bad. Its also only +6 on hit, which is also quite bad when you consider something like 3,1 is +13 on block, and that the string has infinitely more utility to it, considering the 3,1 / 3,1,2 mindgames, or doing 3,1~throw.

Sadly it feels like a wasted string to me.
 
Killphil

Killphil

A prop on the stage of life.
hmm..interesting. Maybe the frame data for 3,3 is so bad because it jails perhaps? I only ever use it on accident and thats usually in juggles. Needless I don't use it enough to know its properties outside of frame data. 3,1 is fine but doesn't jail. Test it out for me. Crouch block the 3,3 and see if both hits register or if the second whiffs.I gotta run to class, I'm a minute late
 
zaf

zaf

professor
31 does jail, but only on jip. Even if 33 did jail its not safe on block.


Sent from my GT-S5830D using Tapatalk
 
Skkra

Skkra

PSN: Skkra
Killphil said:
3,1 is fine on paper but that shit doesn't jail.
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Well, it does jail off a JIP. However: Phil, this is not directed specifically at you, but I am so sick of people coming in here and saying 3,1 is not that good because it doesn't jail, or people will uppercut under the 1.

NO THEY WONT. 3,1 is fine on paper, and its fine in actual play.

That move literally comes out in half a second. It takes that long to comprehend that the move you're blocking is the 3,1 string. I continually call for someone to show me a tournament video of a player consistently punishing that string on reaction. Funny thing about that - there isnt one. Even if you can see and identify it, you're scared of eating the 2 ender by the time you can physically react.

I also love hearing "oh, my friend Bob, when we play, he does it all the time!" Well then tell your friend Bob to get out to some tournaments, since he should have no problem winning them with his godlike reactions. The 3 in that string is 12 frames, which means in that timespan, Bob has to identify that move and react. Uh huh. These are the same people claiming you can block Scorpions low/overhead mixup on reaction (spoiler alert: you cant).

3,1 is great the way it is.
 
Skkra

Skkra

PSN: Skkra
Killphil said:
12 frames is a generous enough margin when pokes come out faster than it. (Character dependent) I wasn't including a jip which basically forces your opponent to stand. And scorpions high/low mixup? Easy. Block low and when you see him go for B2 you can easily react to that. Thats like saying you can't react to jax's overhead smash. Again I'm not calling anyone out, just have to disagree with you on this point.
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I think you partially misunderstand what I'm saying. You have good intentions, but this above post is written from the magical world of Theoryland, a place that way, waaaay too many posts on TYM come from. Everyone seems to think that Perfect Legend's reflexes are somehow commonplace, when they're probably more like 1 in 10,000.

Yes, there are moves faster than 12 frames, but that is not a "generous enough margin." It's 1/5th of a second. What I'm saying is that as a human being, you literally cannot consistently react to that time frame. At best you can try and anticipate it. People saying anything other than that is theory fighter garbage. Again, there is a reason that no one punishes that string in competitive play: because in the real world, you cant.

Jax's overhead smash takes half a second to come out. That is more along the lines of standard human reaction times, which is why it can be fuzzy guarded: your brain has juuust enough time for you to recognize the distinct animation, release block, and fuzzy guard it at the last moment. And even still, watch tournament play - people do not always block it.

Please do not mention Scorpion's low/overhead mixup. "Easy?" If it was easy, Slips wouldn't be able to run that 50-50 vortex continually. The two moves are essentially the exact same frames, 17 and 18. Both of them come out in less than 1/3rd of a second. Humans are not able to react to it... that's why it works.

Go back and listen to the first Kombat Tomb Podcast that Slips was on, there is a golden nugget of truth in there:
16bit: "People are saying you can fuzzy guard the vortex."
Slips: "That's absolutely ridiculous."
16bit: "Everyone on the forums says you can react to the overhead."
Slips: "Well, everyone's fucking stupid."
 
Skkra

Skkra

PSN: Skkra
Again, I am not trying to be a jerk, I'm just saying that I constantly hear, all over the boards, a nonstop parade of theoryfighter advice that sounds correct, but doesn't actually work in real life simply because we're all human and have limitations like concentration, attention, and reaction time.

No one has to take my word for it - all people would need to do is to watch high-level tournament gameplay. A plethora of techniques and mixups that everyone says are so easy to block and deal with?... its simply not so.

EDIT: I'm not saying that a move like 3,1 is unstoppably godlike and to spam it. Even Kitana's godly D+1 can't be spammed - anything that is spammed is easy to stop. But I've heard way too many people discount things like 3,1 entirely, writing them off as "oh, its no good, people will duck and punish it" when the reality is that that is never realistically going to happen.
 
a_guardian_devil

a_guardian_devil

"We share blood, we are not brothers!"
Agree skkra,


I use it in my mixups game and combined with the b2 cancels it's awesome.

Btw, is there an answer to crouch blocking opponent aside from u4?
 
Kindred

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
Personally I love the 3,1. But you cant use it non stop or else people recognize it (just like any move no matter how fast it is)
I usually mix 3,1 / 3,1,2 / 1,2

On topic though, im guessing its pretty grim for 3,3?
 
Skkra

Skkra

PSN: Skkra
Kindred, I don't think there is much to 3,3. =( And guardian_devil, Kindred is correct - Ermac should use a lot of grabs.

As far as 3,1, its a huge part of his offense, but yes, it absolutely needs to be mixed up just like any other move. You can mix 3,1 with 3,1,2 and 3,1~grab and that alone can prove frustrating to opponents. Then start throwing in some sweeps (+2 on block remember) or D+3's dash canceled with forward dashes to continue pressure, and other variants like 1,2,1 (even on block) or even B+1~grab since B+1 is only -2 on block and obviously no one wants to eat the rest of that string (credit to zaf).
 
Killphil

Killphil

A prop on the stage of life.
Skkra said:
Kindred, I don't think there is much to 3,3. =( And guardian_devil, Kindred is correct - Ermac should use a lot of grabs.

As far as 3,1, its a huge part of his offense, but yes, it absolutely needs to be mixed up just like any other move. You can mix 3,1 with 3,1,2 and 3,1~grab and that alone can prove frustrating to opponents. Then start throwing in some sweeps (+2 on block remember) or D+3's dash canceled with forward dashes to continue pressure, and other variants like 1,2,1 (even on block) or even B+1~grab since B+1 is only -2 on block and obviously no one wants to eat the rest of that string (credit to zaf).
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Yea on my way to work I was like "what did I say initially that started this" and was like astounded. I must of been hopped up on something because the way I wrote 3,1 doesn't jail was wrong. I didn't mean to sound like I was calling the string itself shit, and have since edited/deleted posts to the contrary. Sorry about that. (I'm still amazed that scorpion's b2 is 18 frames....)
 
Metzos

Metzos

You will BOW to me!
312 is fine. Ppl who say otherwise have not experienced it first hand. The stagger caused by 2 on hit will always place the fear in the heart of a high lvl player. Everything is easy when said in theory. Theory to practicality goes a long way.
 
MKF30

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
metzos13 said:
312 is fine. Ppl who say otherwise have not experienced it first hand. The stagger caused by 2 on hit will always place the fear in the heart of a high lvl player. Everything is easy when said in theory. Theory to practicality is a long way.
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I agree, 33 is mehh but 312 and 31, F4, throws etc are awesome mix ups and mind games :)
 
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