Question - Necromancer Does Necromancer Need to be Further Balanced?

[Rude]

I think your supposed to use the flick as pressure which, is why ots as safe as it is (and was safer). The tracking on the grab is too good for it to be both a mid and safe in block. Hed have a mix upthat leads to good damage, amazing zoning, and safe pressure. Hed be way to good. Theyd have that much tome to move but then they have to eat another one. Then deal with it again. And then at that point theyd have to deal with his hell sparks. If someones full screen theyd eat at least 6% chip before they get close enough to hit u. And then wed still be safe. And get to mix them up. Its so negative for the same reason kenshis (possessed) is so negative. To give people a chance



Itd be a full screen grab with really goid tracking that leads to a full combo

And?

Quan Chi does a lot worse.

It's not like it'd be free. Teleports exist in this game, as does advancing armor.

You make your reads, you get in. Since Summon Fiend's start up is quite slow, you could react to it in a lot of ways.

Jumping, teleporting, advancing armor, backdashing, running, etc.

Only if you were standing still could the grab hit you.

 

[Jaku2011]

So what if you had close, mid, and far Flicks?

Kind of like Quan's runes or Kotal's Sun Rays?

Also, what if Summon Fiend worked like a Grab?

Would this be too much?

1. No that's a nerf

2. That would be dumb if you wanna make it dirtier make it a low which would help set up the unblockable better and discourage people trying to run the flick.

 

[imblackjames]

And?

Quan Chi does a lot worse.

It's not like it'd be free. Teleports exist in this game, as does advancing armor.

You make your reads, you get in. Since Summon Fiend's start up is quite slow, you could react to it in a lot of ways.

Jumping, teleporting, advancing armor, backdashing, running, etc.

Only if you were standing still could the grab hit you.

It catches most jumps and someones going to have to full screen armor an attack to get past it to just still be over half screen away where you can grab, flick or hell spark them. Yea u can run but the tracking is really good itll catch u running and since ypu cant block your screwed. Its different frim quan too because you can block quan chis attacks full screen. You wouldn't be able to block this. Then wed still have a meterless safe option full screen. Itd be way too op.

 

[Rude]

It catches most jumps and someones going to have to full screen armor an attack to get past it to just still be over half screen away where you can grab, flick or hell spark them. Yea u can run but the tracking is really good itll catch u running and since ypu cant block your screwed. Its different frim quan too because you can block quan chis attacks full screen. You wouldn't be able to block this. Then wed still have a meterless safe option full screen. Itd be way too op.

As it is now, you can definitely run past Summon Fiend. It still happens.

You could also jump over it if you make the read, etc.

 

[Rude]

1. No that's a nerf

2. That would be dumb if you wanna make it dirtier make it a low which would help set up the unblockable better and discourage people trying to run the flick.

Why would it be a nerf?

If anything, it would fix your tracking problem because each flick would have a dedicated portion of the screen it would affect.

Instead of poor tracking that can't catch fast advancing movement.

Plus, it would give the player more control over the move.

 

[imblackjames]

As it is now, you can definitely run past Summon Fiend. It still happens.

You could also jump over it if you make the read, etc.

Its tracking is so good i never have anyone just run by the grab. Itd give the opponents no good options. You either have to jump snd get hell sparked or run and get grabbed either way anywhere on the screen youre getting hit with at least 30% for a bar. Then youre full screen again.

And the tracking on the flick isnt so good because the grab exists. The grab is tp catch people running past the flick thats why its tracking is so good and why its unlockable. Becif u read wrong and they dont run you get in because of my mistake

 

[Jaku2011]

Why would it be a nerf?

If anything, it would fix your tracking problem because each flick would have a dedicated portion of the screen it would affect.

Instead of poor tracking that can't catch fast advancing movement.

Plus, it would give the player more control over the move.

There's always those weird spots on the screen where those types of moves don't hit and I personally would rather hit everywhere.

 

[Rude]

Its tracking is so good i never have anyone just run by the grab. Itd give the opponents no good options. You either have to jump snd get hell sparked or run and get grabbed either way anywhere on the screen youre getting hit with at least 30% for a bar. Then youre full screen again.

And the tracking on the flick isnt so good because the grab exists. The grab is tp catch people running past the flick thats why its tracking is so good and why its unlockable. Becif u read wrong and they dont run you get in because of my mistake

I remember NINFan101 M
made a whole video about the characters that can run past Summon Fiend and flick.

And yes, you're right in that it would be very hard to get around. What's wrong with that?

It's very hard to get through Summoner zoning, and a good Summoner can punish you for trying to get through his zoning.

So why not make your character the best zoner in the game? There are far dirtier things in this game.

The meta, in my opinion, would loom like this:

You increase the whiff recovery on Summon Fiend. Make it a grab that can pop up with meter. If they read Fiend they can jump and run in for pressure, teleport, use a MB Slide or MB Shadow Kick, etc.

You, The Necromancer player, if you read a jump can use Flick or Hellsparks. Block a flick? Start running and make your next read. If you read the jump, Hellsparks. If they read that, they simply cut their run short, let Hellsparks whiff, and then run in.

I'm agreeing that making it a grab would be dirty

But I want as many variations and characters to be dirty as possible.

Quan Chi can use Bat Spark from full screen on hit to start a combi bigger than 30%, just to say.

 

[Rude]

There's always those weird spots on the screen where those types of moves don't hit and I personally would rather hit everywhere.

For those spots, you have Fiend and Hellsparks.

As it stands now, because the move is programmed to hit everywhere, it's easily dealt with by running because it doesn't handle advancing movement.

Here, you would have guaranteed zones where the move hits. You would have full control over where it hits and you would have the threat of those zones to open up your shiny, new, Summon Fiend Grab.

It's awesome.

 

[Jaku2011]

For those spots, you have Fiend and Hellsparks.

As it stands now, because the move is programmed to hit everywhere, it's easily dealt with by running because it doesn't handle advancing movement.

Here, you would have guaranteed zones where the move hits. You would have full control over where it hits and you would have the threat of those zones to open up your shiny, new, Summon Fiend Grab.

It's awesome.

Again that move being a grab would be all kinds of dumb. And if you're running at me to get away from flick you're just gonna get hell sparked anyway

 

[Rude]

Again that move being a grab would be all kinds of dumb. And if you're running at me to get away from flick you're just gonna get hell sparked anyway

It would be no more dumb than Summoner zoning, Cassie mb Drone set ups, all of Sonya's mix ups on top of mix ups, or 90% of the things in this game. It's not like the opponent couldn't get in.

Embrace the filth.

 

[imblackjames]

I remember NINFan101 M
made a whole video about the characters that can run past Summon Fiend and flick.

And yes, you're right in that it would be very hard to get around. What's wrong with that?

It's very hard to get through Summoner zoning, and a good Summoner can punish you for trying to get through his zoning.

So why not make your character the best zoner in the game? There are far dirtier things in this game.

The meta, in my opinion, would loom like this:

You increase the whiff recovery on Summon Fiend. Make it a grab that can pop up with meter. If they read Fiend they can jump and run in for pressure, teleport, use a MB Slide or MB Shadow Kick, etc.

You, The Necromancer player, if you read a jump can use Flick or Hellsparks. Block a flick? Start running and make your next read. If you read the jump, Hellsparks. If they read that, they simply cut their run short, let Hellsparks whiff, and then run in.

I'm agreeing that making it a grab would be dirty

But I want as many variations and characters to be dirty as possible.

Quan Chi can use Bat Spark from full screen on hit to start a combi bigger than 30%, just to say.

Can you link that video? Im not saying all this wouldn't be nice. Im saying he doesnt need it. The way he is right now hes a perfectly fune character. If i wanted to play quan chi id go play as quan chi. His mental game doesnt need to be like that. Hes a fair charcter right now (probably a bit better than fair) so he doesn't need all that.

 

[Rude]

Can you link that video? Im not saying all this wouldn't be nice. Im saying he doesnt need it. The way he is right now hes a perfectly fune character. If i wanted to play quan chi id go play as quan chi. His mental game doesnt need to be like that. Hes a fair charcter right now (probably a bit better than fair) so he doesn't need all that.

If he's fine...


Where are all The Necromancers at?

When was the last time you saw one in top 8?

Or Top 16?

Top 32?

Because I can't recall. Is there a reason to use this over Imposter or Boneshaper?

 

[Glass Sword]

I just wish there was reason to meter burn Flick and Judgement Fist.
Meterburn Flick only gives you a hard knockdown ( it may have a better hitbox on the move) and slighlty more damage.
Meterburn Judgement Fist is just useless, to my knowledge, getting you slightly more damage.

 

[imblackjames]

If he's fine...


Where are all The Necromancers at?

When was the last time you saw one in top 8?

Or Top 16?

Top 32?

Because I can't recall. Is there a reason to use this over Imposter or Boneshaper?

Im right here i main necromancer i win my weekly locals with him. U use this one because zoning is better, you can combo frim anywhere on the screen and you have higher damaging combos

 

[imblackjames]

I just wish there was reason to meter burn Flick and Judgement Fist.
Meterburn Flick only gives you a hard knockdown ( it may have a better hitbox on the move) and slighlty more damage.
Meterburn Judgement Fist is just useless, to my knowledge, getting you slightly more damage.

If u have 2 bars you can use mb judgment hand as an otg for an unbreakable reset after hell sparks but thats it. And its SUPER situational

 

[Juggs]

Necro needs buffs. Fix tracking and increase damage on all necro specials.

 

[Youphemism]

I think your supposed to use the flick as pressure which, is why ots as safe as it is (and was safer). The tracking on the grab is too good for it to be both a mid and safe in block. Hed have a mix upthat leads to good damage, amazing zoning, and safe pressure. Hed be way to good. Theyd have that much tome to move but then they have to eat another one. Then deal with it again. And then at that point theyd have to deal with his hell sparks. If someones full screen theyd eat at least 6% chip before they get close enough to hit u. And then wed still be safe. And get to mix them up. Its so negative for the same reason kenshis (possessed) is so negative. To give people a chance



Itd be a full screen grab with really goid tracking that leads to a full combo

Flick? A pressure tool? It has 22 frames of startup and is -8 on block, a pressure tool is the last thing I'd call Flick lol. If they wanted it to be used in pressure they wouldn't have made it more unsafe, they probably nerfed it to show it's not for pressure I would've said it's a zoning tool since it's better for keeping a full screen presence than it is for pressuring the opponent. The tracking and it being safe are irrelevant, look at how Flick works just now and how it's fine. I'm asking for non-EX Fiend to be safe, not the EX version, like Raiden's DF2 that I mentioned before. People can jump over DF4 on a read and whiff punish, it has a lot of recovery. Saying meterless DF4 would be op if it were safer is like saying Flick is op as it is. They have the same startup and don't lead to full combo.

I just wish there was reason to meter burn Flick and Judgement Fist.
Meterburn Flick only gives you a hard knockdown ( it may have a better hitbox on the move) and slighlty more damage.
Meterburn Judgement Fist is just useless, to my knowledge, getting you slightly more damage.

EX Judgment Fist OTGs.

 

[imblackjames]

Flick? A pressure tool? It has 22 frames of startup and is -8 on block, a pressure tool is the last thing I'd call Flick lol. If they wanted it to be used in pressure they wouldn't have made it more unsafe, they probably nerfed it to show it's not for pressure I would've said it's a zoning tool since it's better for keeping a full screen presence than it is for pressuring the opponent. The tracking and it being safe are irrelevant, look at how Flick works just now and how it's fine. I'm asking for non-EX Fiend to be safe, not the EX version, like Raiden's DF2 that I mentioned before. People can jump over DF4 on a read and whiff punish, it has a lot of recovery. Saying meterless DF4 would be op if it were safer is like saying Flick is op as it is. They have the same startup and don't lead to full combo.

EX Judgment Fist OTGs.

I think it is thats why its a safe meterless option. The reason they made it -8 was because they made the tracking better. yea you can jump but youre not throwing out the grab unless theyre at a distance where they cant punish you for it. Hell sparks is there fir people that close. I think itd be op because then all of our full screen options are safe and then we have no reason ti ever use hell sparks at the end of pressure strings because the grab would be safe

 

[Youphemism]

I think it is thats why its a safe meterless option. The reason they made it -8 was because they made the tracking better. yea you can jump but youre not throwing out the grab unless theyre at a distance where they cant punish you for it. Hell sparks is there fir people that close. I think itd be op because then all of our full screen options are safe and then we have no reason ti ever use hell sparks at the end of pressure strings because the grab would be safe

But it'd make no difference because you could still armour through it, same as Flick. He needs to have at least slightly more meaningful zoning because right now Bone Shaper outclasses it and it's not even a zoning variation. As it is Flick is the same speed and -8 but it doesn't lock the opponent down nor is it op so there's no reason making grab safer would be op too since it achieves basically the same thing. Only the meterless version though, even though there are characters with safe on block metered launchers (or even plus *cough*Quan and Erron*cough*) I don't want him to be as stupid as that so make it more like Raiden where the EX launching version is unsafe but meterless isn't. It'd improve Necros zoning a little bit, even his meter building slightly which is important for Shinnok. Necro just needs a reason to be picked, you know?

 

[imblackjames]

But it'd make no difference because you could still armour through it, same as Flick. He needs to have at least slightly more meaningful zoning because right now Bone Shaper outclasses it and it's not even a zoning variation. As it is Flick is the same speed and -8 but it doesn't lock the opponent down nor is it op so there's no reason making grab safer would be op too since it achieves basically the same thing. Only the meterless version though, even though there are characters with safe on block metered launchers (or even plus *cough*Quan and Erron*cough*) I don't want him to be as stupid as that so make it more like Raiden where the EX launching version is unsafe but meterless isn't. It'd improve Necros zoning a little bit, even his meter building slightly which is important for Shinnok. Necro just needs a reason to be picked, you know?

Its -8 because the tracking isnt as good as the grab thats why i dont think its too good. If the tracking on it was as good itd be too good. Thats why much like kenshi you have to make a read as to what they're gonna do and either flick for safe zoning or go for better tracking and damage and use the grab. The launcher isn't safe because you can get 30% from anywhere on the screen. I would have agreed with bs zoning being better if it hadnt just been nerfed to -12. And im pretty sure necromancer does the most damage of all his variations. And the reason to pick it is to convert from anywhere on the screen

 

[Youphemism]

Its -8 because the tracking isnt as good as the grab thats why i dont think its too good. If the tracking on it was as good itd be too good. Thats why much like kenshi you have to make a read as to what they're gonna do and either flick for safe zoning or go for better tracking and damage and use the grab. The launcher isn't safe because you can get 30% from anywhere on the screen. I would have agreed with bs zoning being better if it hadnt just been nerfed to -12. And im pretty sure necromancer does the most damage of all his variations. And the reason to pick it is to convert from anywhere on the screen

That doesn't make sense, the block advantage on a move isn't defined based on how well the move tracks. Some characters can still run past it as it is anyway. People respect it as it is at the moment and it is in no way too good so there's no reason making grab (which has almost the exact same amount of startup frames and doesn't lead to much more thna Flick does on hit if it even does lead to more) just as safe would be too good. You can't get 30% on the screen off of DF4, you can off of DF4EX but not DF4. That's why I don't think you're getting what I'm saying even though I've brought it up twice at least already lol. I'm saying make the meterless one safe, not the metered one. That way you don't get much if DF4 lands, much like Raiden's DF2 and how the meterless version doesn't lead to anything but is -7 and the metered version is unsafe but leads to big damage. You can convert pretty much anywhere on screen with Hell Sparks anyway so I don't see that as a reason to pick Necro over the other two. I just think as a zoning variation it should, you know, have more meaningful zoning. Next to nothing would change if they made METERLESS DF4 safe honestly, it'd act the same as Flick does. If Flick's tracking was still abysmal I might see your point but it hits almost everyone now so I don't feel that's a talking point really.

 

[Rude]

But it'd make no difference because you could still armour through it, same as Flick. He needs to have at least slightly more meaningful zoning because right now Bone Shaper outclasses it and it's not even a zoning variation. As it is Flick is the same speed and -8 but it doesn't lock the opponent down nor is it op so there's no reason making grab safer would be op too since it achieves basically the same thing. Only the meterless version though, even though there are characters with safe on block metered launchers (or even plus *cough*Quan and Erron*cough*) I don't want him to be as stupid as that so make it more like Raiden where the EX launching version is unsafe but meterless isn't. It'd improve Necros zoning a little bit, even his meter building slightly which is important for Shinnok. Necro just needs a reason to be picked, you know?

Isn't Hellsparks a + on block launcher with meter? If done early, doesn't he get a 50/50 attempt?

 

[Youphemism]

Isn't Hellsparks a + on block launcher with meter? If done early, doesn't he get a 50/50 attempt?

Correct, I forgot about that, but it is a less optimal combo extender than DF4EX. As of the last patch he does not get a 50/50 attempt because as part of the universal changes his Hell Sparks now push back the opponent a more significant amount so nothing is guaranteed, not even a F4.

 

[legion666]

I think it would be pretty great if both Imposter/Necro got a new combo. Perhaps one with a hard knockdown. When you pick IMP or Necro and look at their kombo list, it's so... abysmal.

I agree 100% these two variations need an extra string. Impostor could also use some Ex qualities for his Mimicry and Tricky portal. I mean his specials are the only ones with no EX versions, it is like they just forgot about it or didn't have time to finish the variation(