Match-up Discussion Green Arrow In Depth Match Up Discussion (1.06)

[G4S Killin Natzees]

Jimmypotato I must say I love what you've done with the thread so far! Tons of info!

 

[LEGEND]

i haven't actually played the green arrow Vs superman MU since the patch. I've been using Sinestro for that one

pre patch is was absolutely unwinnable. I don't see it changing much but i'll make it a point to play the MU in casuals tomorrow/tonight and report back

Fuckin Superman, just thinking about fighting him rustles my jimmies

 

[ando1184]

I just wanted to know if anyone has any good MU experience vs Harley Quinn? I just fought Saltface at a tournament in Augusta GA yesterday, and it felt like he had control of the match the entire time. I have 0 experience vs a good Harley and didn't know what to do, here's the link with the top 3 matches. It starts at 04:07:15 http://www.twitch.tv/ascrubsperspective/b/471638748

 

[Duck Nation]

I absolutely believe that MMH/GA is an 8-2. I feel like I still have yet to play a particularly complete MMH and yet regardless of their style I get bopped, even taking into account that I'm not great with this character. Do they want to go in? Great, they have plus frames on every last fucking thing they do and you'll never get to do any of your normals. He can reach you in mid-range where it's optimal to fire your ice arrows, and if they like whoring out teleports good fucking luck stopping them. Trying to gamble on stopping overhead teleport with a dead on isn't worth it, and the "just walk forward" idiot mentality works as well as it does in any match. If he feels like zoning you, well, you'll never get in. He can't be competed with at all at range, with fire arrows presenting no threat great enough to not just go ahead and trade, and again, he can just teleport into a high damage combo to blow arrow out, and walk away again. In mid-range you have to worry about everything he can do with trait, again leading to combo damage because he's MMH. If you manage to combo him by some miracle, well, congratulations - he's going to ignore your oki. Push takes care of ground setups and teleport can bop everything else. He has some vulnerability to dead on gimmicks, but that's hardly saying much.

MMH is kind of over the top ridiculous anyways, but this match is just ludicrous. I don't know how a GA will ever realistically win against a well-trained MMH who's even somewhat familiar with Arrow's shit.

 

[Scoot Magee]

I absolutely believe that MMH/GA is an 8-2. I feel like I still have yet to play a particularly complete MMH and yet regardless of their style I get bopped, even taking into account that I'm not great with this character. Do they want to go in? Great, they have plus frames on every last fucking thing they do and you'll never get to do any of your normals. He can reach you in mid-range where it's optimal to fire your ice arrows, and if they like whoring out teleports good fucking luck stopping them. Trying to gamble on stopping overhead teleport with a dead on isn't worth it, and the "just walk forward" idiot mentality works as well as it does in any match. If he feels like zoning you, well, you'll never get in. He can't be competed with at all at range, with fire arrows presenting no threat great enough to not just go ahead and trade, and again, he can just teleport into a high damage combo to blow arrow out, and walk away again. In mid-range you have to worry about everything he can do with trait, again leading to combo damage because he's MMH. If you manage to combo him by some miracle, well, congratulations - he's going to ignore your oki. Push takes care of ground setups and teleport can bop everything else. He has some vulnerability to dead on gimmicks, but that's hardly saying much.

MMH is kind of over the top ridiculous anyways, but this match is just ludicrous. I don't know how a GA will ever realistically win against a well-trained MMH who's even somewhat familiar with Arrow's shit.

Against both of those characters your best bet is to get in by using electric arrows. If you manage to get in you can't afford to make 1 bad read/guess or you'll have to get in all over again.

I think MMH is worse than Zod. Against Zod you can at least hold out arrows around mid range to make him block, thats a great way to get in if you manage to get that close. I say when you get in try to have an ice arrow equipped at all times. You really have to maximize damage against these characters and the ice arrow is the best way to make his f2d13 a real threat outside of the corner.

At far range vs Zod you can do a lot between his slow force balls like load or shoot an arrow safely. Don't try to jump over a slow ball without checking him with an arrow first. Zod's eye laser anti airs if you try to jump over them while he's free to move.

 

[Eric The Scruffy]

So question for you all: does anyone out there feel like they've actually become comfortable dealing with Superman zoning? I've been a bit of a character loyalist with arrow and I feel pretty comfortable in some of his less then ideal matchups....but this one has left me continually frustrated to the point where I'm honestly ready to call it quits and learn a counterpick. Really, I'm asking this because if its possible to level up and deal with it I'd honestly rather do that. Kind of looking for hope right now.

Counterzoning seems futile to me. It's gotten better thanks to the patch, but the numbers still just don't seem to be on your side. Even if you actually block his lasers and you hit him with fire arrows the amount of chip damage he deals means he's still not that far behind in terms of damage....and LBSH: between having to load an arrow and fire one off and his air lasers to boot I don't think it's feasible to block him and hit him 100% of the time anyway.
Dashing and blocking seems like the only option, but then of course you run into the problem that even if you manage to get in and you're able to out footsie the Superman player they can run away and start zoning again because they know they're practically guaranteed a ton of damage that way even if you block. It just feels like an insurmountable hill to climb at times and its made so much worse by the fact that it doesn't really require a lot of thinking to do.

 

[LEGEND]

So question for you all: does anyone out there feel like they've actually become comfortable dealing with Superman zoning? I've been a bit of a character loyalist with arrow and I feel pretty comfortable in some of his less then ideal matchups....but this one has left me continually frustrated to the point where I'm honestly ready to call it quits and learn a counterpick. Really, I'm asking this because if its possible to level up and deal with it I'd honestly rather do that. Kind of looking for hope right now.

Counterzoning seems futile to me. It's gotten better thanks to the patch, but the numbers still just don't seem to be on your side. Even if you actually block his lasers and you hit him with fire arrows the amount of chip damage he deals means he's still not that far behind in terms of damage....and LBSH: between having to load an arrow and fire one off and his air lasers to boot I don't think it's feasible to block him and hit him 100% of the time anyway.
Dashing and blocking seems like the only option, but then of course you run into the problem that even if you manage to get in and you're able to out footsie the Superman player they can run away and start zoning again because they know they're practically guaranteed a ton of damage that way even if you block. It just feels like an insurmountable hill to climb at times and its made so much worse by the fact that it doesn't really require a lot of thinking to do.

you totally right on this. The MU is complete ass

the only thing i've found out about the zoning game is that you can hold trait and react to either a ground laser by shooting your arrow or react to air lasers with a backdash. Its somewhat effective, but really hard to do perfectly. You can also try to shoot Superman out of the air when he jumps but that can be risky

even if you do manage to deal with full screen zoning Superman still heavily out damages you, has better footsies tools, better mobility and better interactable usage. I'd definitely Suggest a counter pick if you run into one in tournament

 

[Eyedentical]

I'm pretty confident in my GA skills however, what's the best option for getting out of the corner against armor characters? Like Grundy or Bane...I get pooped on when I'm cornered.

 

[Duck Nation]

You pretty much don't.

 

[Eyedentical]

You pretty much don't.

I thought so -___- which is really a buzzkill for playing Arrow

 

[Scoot Magee]

I'm pretty confident in my GA skills however, what's the best option for getting out of the corner against armor characters? Like Grundy or Bane...I get pooped on when I'm cornered.

You really have to stay out of the corner vs these characters. In order to get out you have to do something risky depending on what you think they'll go for. Usually I'll just clash to get out of the corner.

 

[Eyedentical]

You really have to stay out of the corner vs these characters. In order to get out you have to do something risky depending on what you think they'll go for. Usually I'll just clash to get out of the corner.

I'm guessing ill either have to push block/clash or yolo slide.....damn that sucks

 

[Qwark28]

What are your reasons for GA badly beating Joker?

 

[Scoot Magee]

What are your reasons for GA badly beating Joker?

I think 6-4 is a good number if I have to give one. I just think its a hard match for joker because ga can keep him out pretty well. If joker gets in he can deal big damage but it seems he has a hard time doing that. I usually just try to run the entire match with fire arrows.

 

[Qwark28]

I think 6-4 is a good number if I have to give one. I just think its a hard match for joker because ga can keep him out pretty well. If joker gets in he can deal big damage but it seems he has a hard time doing that. I usually just try to run the entire match with fire arrows.

I have it 6-4 as well but it's very possible to become 5-5 in the future, I don't see GAs answers to 50% stage wallcarry combos and corner resets, especially with his low damage.

 

[ando1184]

I just wanted to know if anyone has any good MU experience vs Harley Quinn? I just fought Saltface at a tournament in Augusta GA yesterday, and it felt like he had control of the match the entire time. I have 0 experience vs a good Harley and didn't know what to do, here's the link with the top 3 matches. It starts at 04:07:15 http://www.twitch.tv/ascrubsperspective/b/471638748[/quote]

So does no one have any advice to offer on this? I'm really stumped on this MU???

 

[Eric The Scruffy]

I just wanted to know if anyone has any good MU experience vs Harley Quinn? I just fought Saltface at a tournament in Augusta GA yesterday, and it felt like he had control of the match the entire time. I have 0 experience vs a good Harley and didn't know what to do, here's the link with the top 3 matches. It starts at 04:07:15 http://www.twitch.tv/ascrubsperspective/b/471638748

I only fight online and I don't think the majority of the Harley's I fight are really the best ones to get matchup experience from....but for what it's worth I think you had the general right idea at the end of the fight. I feel like most of the advice I can give you've probably already figured out. Note, again I'm an online warrior and I haven't really messed around with the lab with a lot of this stuff....someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on anything..

-Use jumping 3 sparingly. Harley's air to airs are just too good to rely on it, and most good Harley players I've seen love the air to air game. I try to only use J3 if I'm jumping backward since your hitbox seems to beat hers in that case. Otherwise I try to break my habbits and stick with J1.

-Dead on seems really useful in negating her wakeup game, and I noticed you started doing this near the end. I'm not sure how plus it is (if at all), but I usually seem to get a free d1 arrow whether it hits the wakeup or they block.

-Her zoning isn't as bad as it used to be thanks to the low arrow buff...but all she's had to do to adapt it seems is mix in more air shots. One thing I've been trying to do lately is is mix in the slide a lot more into my game. The timing and spacing are really difficult, but a well placed slide can get you underneath her normal gunshots and the forward movement will prevent air shots from hitting either, and it gets you in a lot closer. This isn't something to be relied upon constantly, but it can definitely be unexpected.

-one last thing on airshots: can't remember if this was in the video or not but while you can try to punish them with air ice arrow, Harley can meterburn the move and that extra little hop seems to place her just a little bit to high for the arrow to reach.

 

[Jimmypotato]

I have it 6-4 as well but it's very possible to become 5-5 in the future, I don't see GAs answers to 50% stage wallcarry combos and corner resets, especially with his low damage.

Joker has a pretty tough time getting in, and Arrow doesn't need meter for anything in this match so Super is Always a threat.

If it wasn't for the damage gap I would put this worse then a 6-4 if we were putting a number on it. But 30-50% midscreen (depending on stage) and 50+ in the corner plus super reset get it done for Arrow pretty easily.

Like, what can Joker do if Arrow gets a life lead and just sits at 3/4 screen holding an Ice Arrow out waiting for you to do something.

 

[Qwark28]

Joker has a pretty tough time getting in, and Arrow doesn't need meter for anything in this match so Super is Always a threat.

If it wasn't for the damage gap I would put this worse then a 6-4 if we were putting a number on it. But 30-50% midscreen (depending on stage) and 50+ in the corner plus super reset get it done for Arrow pretty easily.

Like, what can Joker do if Arrow gets a life lead and just sits at 3/4 screen holding an Ice Arrow out waiting for you to do something.

J3 is an excelent tool for getting in and D2 is a solid footsie tool and AA tool. Unlike GA, Joker's J3 is not only very + but even Aquaman has a hard time AAing it because of its special hitbox.

If we're talking about stages then one 30% combo for Joker turns into 70-75% with one background interaction.

Joker gets in fast if you just turtle with a trait arrow.

Super stops being a factor the moment Joker touches you in the corner, clash or die from resets, bet nothing and lose healthy anyways. You ALWAYS have to be on point with anything Joker does, one slip up and you've lost half life, even midscreen.

Joker's combos also have great wallcarry and ATM I'm working on some 70% wallcarry combos. Damage of these combos is 45% and in the corner he gets a guaranteed 80% per combo, no wakeup, no backdash, nothing. What you get once a game Joker gets it the moment he corners you or you're not sharp with your defence midscreen.

Crowbar is an excelent poking tool with D2.

Any of you guys on XBL?

 

[Jimmypotato]

J3 is an excelent tool for getting in and D2 is a solid footsie tool and AA tool. Unlike GA, Joker's J3 is not only very + but even Aquaman has a hard time AAing it because of its special hitbox.

If we're talking about stages then one 30% combo for Joker turns into 70-75% with one background interaction.

Joker gets in fast if you just turtle with a trait arrow.

Super stops being a factor the moment Joker touches you in the corner, clash or die from resets, bet nothing and lose healthy anyways. You ALWAYS have to be on point with anything Joker does, one slip up and you've lost half life, even midscreen.

Joker's combos also have great wallcarry and ATM I'm working on some 70% wallcarry combos. Damage of these combos is 45% and in the corner he gets a guaranteed 80% per combo, no wakeup, no backdash, nothing. What you get once a game Joker gets it the moment he corners you or you're not sharp with your defence midscreen.

Crowbar is an excelent poking tool with D2.

Any of you guys on XBL?

J3 is nullified by simply jump back 3 with arrow, or Jump back 1, both work. This is not a theory fight tactic, I do it on reaction to Joker jumping offline. One of the only other Injustice players in my scene has played Joker since day one, so I have a little xp, we don't play often, but the last time we did I finally figured out to just jump back 3 or 1.

Like I said, I think it would be worse if it wasn't for the damage gap, I know Joker has damage.

But you still can't get in, Jumping with Joker is doesn't work anymore.

Edit: Jumping doesn't work for Joker in this match up, I'm sure it works well in others.

 

[Qwark28]

J3 is nullified by simply jump back 3 with arrow, or Jump back 1, both work. This is not a theory fight tactic, I do it on reaction to Joker jumping offline. One of the only other Injustice players in my scene has played Joker since day one, so I have a little xp, we don't play often, but the last time we did I finally figured out to just jump back 3 or 1.

Like I said, I think it would be worse if it wasn't for the damage gap, I know Joker has damage.

But you still can't get in, Jumping with Joker is doesn't work anymore.

J3 is not reactable with back J3 when Aquaman/Wonderwoman can be caught off guard with such stupid hitbox reducing D2s. You don't do it on reaction, you either do it in anticipation ( which helps us ) or you react to some random animation.

Our J3 is faster, has twice the hitbox of yours with both vertical and horizontal hitboxes that catch a LOT, our jump is faster and shorter, Joker was specifically designed so that jumping is a huge advantage of his game, even his 7-3s can not consistently AA him on reaction.

J3 has to be dealt with by 90% of the cast, GA is no different.

 

[Jimmypotato]

J3 is not reactable with back J3 when Aquaman/Wonderwoman can be caught off guard with such stupid hitbox reducing D2s. You don't do it on reaction, you either do it in anticipation ( which helps us ) or you react to some random animation.

Our J3 is faster, has twice the hitbox of yours with both vertical and horizontal hitboxes that catch a LOT, our jump is faster and shorter, Joker was specifically designed so that jumping is a huge advantage of his game, even his 7-3s can not consistently AA him on reaction.

J3 has to be dealt with by 90% of the cast, GA is no different.

Def can't react to it online,

I'm not gonna argue though, have you ever fought an Arrow that even tried it?

I have video somewhere and I assure you, when you see joker jump, you can jump back 3 or jump 1, I was 13 beers deep and did it multiple times at my last local. I was down 0-2 and made a 3 game comeback cause I figured out it worked on the fly. Your not gonna do it if he is at cross over range, your gonna have to either block the cross up or dash under.

 

[Qwark28]

Def can't react to it online,

I'm not gonna argue though, have you ever fought an Arrow that even tried it?

I have video somewhere and I assure you, when you see joker jump, you can jump back 3 or jump 1, I was 13 beers deep and did it multiple times at my last local. I was down 0-2 and made a 3 game comeback cause I figured out it worked on the fly. Your not gonna do it if he is at cross over range, your gonna have to either block the cross up or dash under.

I don't speak regarding online when I'm discussing matchup points, that's stupid.

I have played a DD who cannot be jumped on, both Nivek and Foxy who play WW, If you jump

You probably caught Gil ( is it him? ) when he wasn't doing J3 properly, J3 is done almost instantly, by frames alone our J3 beats yours, ad reactionary times and it's impossible on reaction.

 

[Jimmypotato]

I don't speak regarding online when I'm discussing matchup points, that's stupid.

I have played a DD who cannot be jumped on, both Nivek and Foxy who play WW, If you jump

You probably caught Gil ( is it him? ) when he wasn't doing J3 properly, J3 is done almost instantly, by frames alone our J3 beats yours, ad reactionary times and it's impossible on reaction.

lol who the hell is Gil??

Like I said, not going to argue, seeing someone jump is not that hard to react to when you know he has no other options.

I've done it before, so I guess I can do the impossible.

 

[Qwark28]

lol who the hell is Gil??

Like I said, not going to argue, seeing someone jump is not that hard to react to when you know he has no other options.

I've done it before, so I guess I can do the impossible.

Gilbagz, you're both canadian.

Joker has alot of options, jumping is just one. D2, D3, crowbar, early J3 etc. Focusing on one opens up the others.

And like I said, the Joker you were playing was not doing J3 properly since just by frame data what you say is done on anticipation only IF the Joker player does it right.