Wondering why buff Quan's poke to 6 and not sub's?

[I GOT HANDS]

fuck I can't think of the word

I can't think of the word for it but I'm guessing you mean like misleading or something? And it's a fair perspective but regardless I disagree and I'll explain why in my response to the ragehead's post

What exactly do you want NRS to do?

They post on our forums.

Like... one post a month if you are lucky. Check out the EVE online forums. E.G. Find me a thread directed to the devs that doesn't have multiple dev posts discussing it

They contribute large pot bonuses to our major tournaments.

They support MKX's involvement in ESL.

They contribute / raise fuck all in comparison to practically every game up there even though they are a much larger company than most, hence why they all have larger competitive scenes.

They give us live streams to go over changes/patch notes.

Other developers often release patch notes before the patch to get initial feedback, and even go as far as discussing patch notes with their commmunity. Just making a stream I guess is a nice way to visualize some of the changes, but its kinda irrelevant as they are all playable later that day anyway, and they miss a bunch of shit in every stream regardless, making it seem much more of a hypemachine for them than actual care for the competitive community. That being said, building hype is always good, but isn't exactly "care for the competitive community"..

They do their best to patch and update the game in order to keep it as balanced and competitive as they can.

If that's the best, that's just more supporting the statement "not as good as other developers" because there best at balancing this game is hitting well off the mark at a lot of points. However, I don't think it's their "best". But that's speculation I guess on both our behalfs, but I'll give you this one.

Their employees occasionally show up at our tournaments. Even commentate matches. They quickly respond to bugs and glitches with hot fixes (granted you cant expect them to fix everything the second it is found but they do a decent job).

Like... this is pretty generic stuff. I can gaurantee you there is employees all through the big tournaments for every event, and not just occasionally. You are talking about players of the game here, them showing up is nice but really doesn't have any big impact lol. And bug fixes? Shit this kinda thing is borderline mandatory in 2015, not something we should be holding them on a pedestal for - especially since they more often than not take their time with a lot of them, other than the last patch. Hell there is still bugs in this game that have been present from day 1, look at the Ice Clone. Remember, the statement you made is that NRS does things better than most other developers - believe me the rest are fixing their bugs as well lol
[

If you hate NRS and feel that the game is garbage then go play StarCraft or Pokémon or one of the other games you listed.

WHY ARE YOU EVEN HERE?

Nice job completely strawmanning the argument. Terrible way to conversate. I never once said the game is garbage. You decided to pretend I did because it makes your perspective easier to argue. I really enjoy playing this game - I just think NRS's contribution to it is tiny compared to other competitive games. That's all I've said. And I do play the other games. Believe it or not, people can play more than just MKX.





I think a bit more community feedback, communication about changes especially controversial ones, explanations, responses to questions like why are certain bugs in the game, why are certain things balanced certain ways, why is the fucking netcode abysmal.... A bit of push to make the competive scene even larger by actually hosting consistent tournaments, much better attention to detail as far as balance, and a bit less shadiness in general would go a long way for NRS, and are all things most other developers do.



You might be satisfied with NRS, and nobody can tell you otherwise. However, throwing out arbitary statements like "they do more than most other developers of comptetitive games" can be strongly contested by the fact that well, most other developers actually do a lot fuckin more lol

 

[Matix218]

I can't think of the word for it but I'm guessing you mean like misleading or something? Regardless I disagree and I'll explain why in my response to the ragehead's post



Like... one post a month if you are lucky. Check out the EVE online forums. E.G. Find me a thread directed to the devs that doesn't have multiple dev posts discussing it


They contribute / raise fuck all in comparison to practically every game up there even though they are a much larger company than most, hence why they all have larger competitive scenes.



Other developers often release patch notes before the patch to get initial feedback, and even go as far as discussing patch notes with their commmunity. Just making a stream I guess is a nice way to visualize some of the changes, but its kinda irrelevant as they are all playable later that day anyway, and they miss a bunch of shit in every stream regardless, making it seem much more of a hypemachine for them than actual care for the competitive community. That being said, building hype is always good, but isn't exactly building the community.


If that's the best, that's just more supporting the statement "not as good as other developers" because there best at balancing this game is hitting well off the mark at a lot of points. However, I don't think it's their "best". But that's speculation I guess on both our behalfs, but I'll give you this one.


Like... this is pretty generic stuff. I can gaurantee you there is employees all through the big tournaments for every event, and not just occasionally. You are talking about players of the game here, them showing up is nice but really doesn't have any big impact lol. And bug fixes? Shit this kinda thing is borderline mandatory in 2015, not something we should be holding them on a pedestal for - especially since they more often than not take their time with a lot of them, other than the last patch. Hell there is still bugs in this game that have been present from day 1, look at the Ice Clone. Remember, the statement you made is that NRS does things better than most other developers - believe me the rest are fixing their bugs as well lol
[



Nice job completely strawmanning the argument. Terrible way to conversate. I never once said the game is garbage. You decided to pretend I did because it makes your perspective easier to argue. I really enjoy playing this game - I just think NRS's contribution to it is tiny compared to other competitive games. That's all I've said. And I do play the other games. Believe it or not, people can play more than just MKX.

NRS seems to be trying to support the competitive scene is all I am trying to get across. If you feel they are not doing a good enough job of it that is your opinion but I personally am fine with how they deal with the competitive scene. Would more interactivity be cool? Well yes and no honestly. With the whiners on this site constantly crying buff and nerf and broken it would be an absolute mess if the developers were posting in all of these threads to be honest.

If you like the game that NRS has made and you like to play it competitively they didn't do such a terrible job.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

NRS seems to be trying to support the competitive scene is all I am trying to get across. If you feel they are not doing a good enough job of it that is your opinion but I personally am fine with how they deal with the competitive scene. Would more interactivity be cool? Well yes and no honestly. With the whiners on this site constantly crying buff and nerf and broken it would be an absolute mess if the developers were posting in all of these threads to be honest.

If you like the game that NRS has made and you like to play it competitively they didn't do such a terrible job.

Hey I realised I didnt respond to your actual question of "what would you do" so I edited it in down the bottom just before you posted, sorry bout that. I recommend just reading that last bit I said again because I actually happened to respond to a lot of your statements there.



And yeah this is one I can fully agree to disagree on. Some will be happy, some won't be, and nobody can tell you that you aren't satisfied when you are and vice versa. I think it is fair to say however that a lot of dev's do a lot more, that's all I'm saying.

 

[Matix218]

Hey I realised I didnt respond to your actual question of "what would you do" so I edited it in down the bottom just before you posted, sorry bout that. I recommend just reading that last bit I said again because I actually happened to respond to a lot of your statements there.



And yeah this is one I can fully agree to disagree on. Some will be happy, some won't be, and nobody can tell you that you aren't satisfied when you are and vice versa. I think it is fair to say however that a lot of dev's do a lot more, that's all I'm saying.

I just read it and those are all fair things to ask for.
I just don't think they are equipped with enough "community feedback" people. I imagine that in some of these other developers that you mentioned that do a better job of this there is literally a whole department devoted just to community feedback and that may not be realistic for NRS based on how many other employees they need just to be able to actually make the game and get it out in the timeframe that they are expected to do so in. Would I like them to do more and communicate more? Definitely but I feel that they do seem to at least care about this game from a competitive standpoint. I would guess that several NRS employees (Tyler, 16 Bit, Derek, Paulo, etc) would love to be able to devote more time and resources to the FGC portion of their customer base but it might just not be possible given their other responsibilities and deadlines. Remember also they start making the new game usually before the previous game is even released so a large portion of their behind the scenes efforts are probably already going toward a game we are not even aware of yet (despite them announcing support of MKX through 2016).

The netcode goes without saying, that is an absolute disaster and I in no way defend NRS for that mess...

I apologize for agreeing with Dave earlier also, that was definitely un called for

 

[I GOT HANDS]

I just read it and those are all fair things to ask for.
I just don't think they are equipped with enough "community feedback" people. I imagine that in some of these other developers that you mentioned that do a better job of this there is literally a whole department devoted just to community feedback and that may not be realistic for NRS based on how many other employees they need just to be able to actually make the game and get it out in the timeframe that they are expected to do so in. Would I like them to do more and communicate more? Definitely but I feel that they do seem to at least care about this game from a competitive standpoint. I would guess that several NRS employees (Tyler, 16 Bit, Derek, Paulo, etc) would love to be able to devote more time and resources to the FGC portion of their customer base but it might just not be possible given their other responsibilities and deadlines. Remember also they start making the new game usually before the previous game is even released so a large portion of their behind the scenes efforts are probably already going toward a game we are not even aware of yet (despite them announcing support of MKX through 2016).

The netcode goes without saying, that is an absolute disaster and I in no way defend NRS for that mess...

I apologize for agreeing with Dave earlier also, that was definitely un called for

I think we are both right. I agree with you 100% here, they don't have the manpower to really interact with their community, so I can't put the fault on Paulo or whoever alone here, they no doubt have their own job to do and I appreciate what contribution they do personally make. However, nrs DOES have the funds of the year's best selling game, with a healthy amount of quite high priced DLC that I imagine absolutely every member of this competitive forum has no doubt bought, a sliver of this could easily be used to build that manpower and provide a little more support. And it's what many other dev's would have and would did decide to do, which is why although I cannot complain for NRS at least providing patches and having contributed in a lot of ways to the scene which they undeniably have made at least some effort, it still feels like the absolute mandatory minimum buy in from a developer their size, at least compared to other games. Maybe I'm being an entitled gamer here, I don't even know anymore, maybe other Dev's have just spoiled me lol it's hard to tell. One thing I do know I can't say objectively however, is that NRS do more than other dev's, because flatly to me, they just don't :| maybe they shouldn't have to either I mean I've gotten hundreds of hours out of MKX and potentially hundreds more. But I do know I can say the same thing for EVE, Starcraft, Dota, etc, and even a lot of smaller games, and they all continue to do much more to care for their competitive player base.


And no problem about the Dave thing lol. It's just another one of his silly narratives, it can be easy to get swept away in at least one of them from time to time.




EDIT: Also, not complaing about the price of the DLC I didn't find it too unfair at all, just saying, 4 characters cost like nearly half as much as the entire game, and the +20 other characters. There was a very nice profit margin on that KP for NRS

 

[buyacushun]

Guilty Gear, BlazBlue, Melty Blood, Arcana Heart, Virtua Fighter, Smash, King of Fighters off the top of my head

Only companies doing better than NRS are Team Ninja & Capcom

Just wanted to say I know GG and BB communities get much love from ArcSys and VF had a huge like 500 man tourney and sega definitely supports/supported VF. It's just that these games don't get a lot of hype over here in the states and these are very japanese companies. Not really a fair comparison or you'd have to question NRS's contribution to international communities too.

 

[16 Bit]

wait a minute, I post on this forum more than once a month. I post a silly picture or gif at least once every other day.

 

[GLoRToR]

(except the online...)

You nailed the head on the hit with that one.
I have no local scene, y'see.
All I can do is online or lab.
I'm likesuffering, likehorribly, likeallday.
Any wonder I'm pissed?

 

[GLoRToR]

wait a minute, I post on this forum more than once a month. I post a silly picture or gif at least once every other day.

You don't count, you're washed up.

 

[ZeroEffect]

The last thing we need is standard pokes for everyone, especially if all would be punishable, that's boring as hell

Well think about this:
What's the point in giving a portion of the cast strings that are +2 on block when they have pokes too slow to make use of them? NRS has done what they could to remove extreme block pressure and pseudo-infinites, but most of the time the issue was not having a fast enough poke to contest with.

I wouldn't make them punishable, but "boring" isn't really a good argument for why D1 and D3 aren't the same frames respectively across the board. This would make the on-block situations a lot more concrete and allow for more mindgames and less helpless, dice-roll scenarios.

 

[Krabman]

Some characters need better pokes than others, though I agree the new Quan poke is questionable.

 

[7L]

They didn't want to make 2 characters on kabal's tier in the same patch. Give it time (until next patch).

 

[GLoRToR]

If you hate NRS and feel that the game is garbage then go play StarCraft or Pokémon or one of the other games you listed.

You misunderstand the people that can only play online and are averse to how the game is currently.
It's not that we hate the game, it's that we love the game and want to play it but can't because online is rubbish.
We do not want to stop playing but we have to.
That's why there is so much discontentment.
Go play something else? DUH. That's what I'm doing.
But that doesn't solve that we were straight up promised better online and since I play both mk9 and mkx I can tell you this: Mk9 on pc? WAY more consistent online than mkx.
Ed Boon lied through his fucking teeth.
Any wonder we're like eh?

 

[STK]

d3 should at least be 7f

 

[The_Tile]

Well, then any good Quan shouldn't even care slightly if it's removed if it sucks so much, seeing as just bad game design

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to have, obviously it's a brilliant tool. I'm just saying it's not an insta kill end game easy wins unless you're playing against little xx69scrotumbonerxx in a 1 bar connection ranked match. If they removed just his pseudo unblockables and nothing else, Quan mains will have gotten very lucky.

 

[Matix218]

You nailed the head on the hit with that one.
I have no local scene, y'see.
All I can do is online or lab.
I'm likesuffering, likehorribly, likeallday.
Any wonder I'm pissed?

Yeah I feel your pain with that man...

 

[Matix218]

wait a minute, I post on this forum more than once a month. I post a silly picture or gif at least once every other day.

I was trying to argue that you guys do the best you can with feedback and communication. Do you have any insider insight or thoughts to add?

 

[GAV]

My uncles used to tell me a story when I was young...

Young Uncle Mario and Uncle Joe were at the table waiting for dinner. Each got a meatball, but Joe's was bigger than Mario's. So, Mario began to cry. When he looked up from crying, he realized his meatball was gone. Then, Joe belched loudly and Mario was still hungry.

The morale is...

 

[Ragnarök Tyr]

From Quan to universal pokes, to Sub Zero's supposed Tier Placement, to Developer Support. What an interesting read, where shall it turn to next?

 

[I GOT HANDS]

From Quan to universal pokes, to Sub Zero's supposed Tier Placement, to Developer Support. What an interesting read, where shall it turn to next?

Balls in your court brother make it happen

 

[Undergroundepict]

You might be satisfied with NRS, and nobody can tell you otherwise. However, throwing out arbitary statements like "they do more than most other developers of comptetitive games" can be strongly contested by the fact that well, most other developers actually do a lot fuckin more lol

I think it is unreasonable to expect NRS employees to post here regularly. Pretty standard for employees to disappear from the mainstream community when their studio is owned by inhuman megabehemoth WB. I'm not exactly sure why, but these large companies obviously discourage or prohibit employees from participating discussion boards as anything other than a representative of the company who makes the occasional, premeditated appearance to produce hype.

RPG's tend to have a more active prescence because there is a lot more going on in them.

Studios that are not the bitch of a faceless mega-corporation tend to be much more active in the community.


As for communication, I see the stream as a huge step forward. Sure, it was imperfect, but we went from pretty much just having this shit dropped on us, to a stream that attempted to explain to us some of what the patch will entail, along with a degree of reasoning for the changes.

Sure, the stream was shit, they were disorganized, they skimmed over important changes they were planning on making, and while they were all hype about the buffs, they seemed to specifically avoid calling any attention to most of the nerfs that they knew were coming. This is a shitty practice because I think players require more explanation for as to why their character got nerfed than they would for buffs, and sometimes a simple explanation of why a particular change was made can be the difference between community outrage any understanding.

Anyways, I'm just encouraged by the stream. Most studios with communication issues never even take that first step, and if NRS continues on that path, things will surely improve.


IMO, the most unforgiveable thing about NRS is their silence and, in effect, tacit denial of just how bad online is in this game. I love this game, I check TYM every day, I enjoy the game so much, in fact, that I felt compelled to find local players to play with, and now drive an hour and a half through perilous Miami rush hour traffic in order to go to my local every Wednesday.

Meanwhile, Wednesday has become the only day I bother to play this game because online is so broken for me. NRS remaining silent on this, by far the game's greatest issue, is not only mean spirited and disrespectful towards their most loyal and active consumer base, but also potentially franchise suicide down the line.

A game's competitive community might not make up the bulk of sales, but we are the ones who indirectly market the game by continuing to play it, talk about it, stream it, and keep it relevant for months or even years after release, which is the foundation of a franchise's success that ultimately determines how much hype the next installment will recieve.

I think companies ignore or are largely unaware of this, as this is a phenomena that occurs over long periods of time, while they remain shortsighted. MK 11 will do just fine, but continued lack of quality issues and lack of concern for their most active consumers will lead to the demise of the franchise. Our impact is significantly underrated, even by ourselves.

 

[GLoRToR]

I think it is unreasonable to expect NRS employees to post here regularly. Pretty standard for employees to disappear from the mainstream community when their studio is owned by inhuman megabehemoth WB. I'm not exactly sure why, but these large companies obviously discourage or prohibit employees from participating discussion boards as anything other than a representative of the company who makes the occasional, premeditated appearance to produce hype.

Companies sign contracts that prohibit employees to talk of the product without consent from their superiors simply because imaging and design management go hand in hand. Employees are humans too and they usually have their own opinions, personal agendas, grudges, gripes, likes, preferences etc. Companies want their products to be in-line with their marketing strategies.
So for instance Joe Shmoe works for Blizzard, if he goes on about Overwatch before release he might present the game in a different light than what the company wants it to be.
This is why leaking information can get you fired, too.

RPG's tend to have a more active prescence because there is a lot more going on in them.

I'd rather say RPGs are produced and played by more actively involved people than fighting games.
In any given fighting game there is a comparatively tiny professional crowd and then there are the casuals who will not contribute actively.
In any given RPG there is a huge community discussing and wishing to help develop the game.
Which is why it's hell to be on QA when it comes to a mmorpg. Everybody has an opinion.

Studios that are not the bitch of a faceless mega-corporation tend to be much more active in the community.

Studios whose public imaging is more along the lines of "hey guys, look what we just made" are more active towards the community.
Studies who are signed with the above type of contract are simply not given enough leeway and/or are behind communication bars by the holders and their marketing contractors.

As for communication, I see the stream as a huge step forward. Sure, it was imperfect, but we went from pretty much just having this shit dropped on us, to a stream that attempted to explain to us some of what the patch will entail, along with a degree of reasoning for the changes.

Good for you. I personally see the stream as a "so they want communication, here's four stooges clowning around".
It's not good communication if the communication is one way.
Big companies will have to learn this eventually.

Sure, the stream was shit,

Real talk.

they were disorganized, they skimmed over important changes they were planning on making,

Among other problems with what happens when you put four gamers on camera. Twitch is suffering with two, atm.
I mean, when you're streaming as an individual it's your personality coming through and then people either like and watch, hate and don't watch, or hate and watch. Guess which single one isn't a successful result. Guessed right.

and while they were all hype about the buffs, they seemed to specifically avoid calling any attention to most of the nerfs that they knew were coming.

Again they were told not to. Which is on the company, the design managers, the communications managers or whoever's in charge of telling them so.

This is a shitty practice because...

...it is dishonest as fuck and your customers have a right to know what they will not like about the game they'll be buying.
Had Ed Boon explicitly said that "Online play is present but not supported; we unfortunately do not have the means of managing a consistent online experience due to factors beyond our grasp." less people would have bought it, but they'd get more marketing revenue as "that honest company".
Except WB probably wouldn't let them say so.

IMO, the most unforgiveable thing about NRS is their silence and, in effect, tacit denial of just how bad online is in this game.

Werd.

potentially franchise suicide down the line.

A game's competitive community might not make up the bulk of sales, but we are the ones who indirectly market the game by continuing to play it, talk about it, stream it, and keep it relevant for months or even years after release, which is the foundation of a franchise's success that ultimately determines how much hype the next installment will recieve.

I think companies ignore or are largely unaware of this, as this is a phenomena that occurs over long periods of time, while they remain shortsighted. MK 11 will do just fine, but continued lack of quality issues and lack of concern for their most active consumers will lead to the demise of the franchise. Our impact is significantly underrated, even by ourselves.

They'll retire before the franchise actually goes down. Ed is what, 50 now? I can see one, tops two MK's coming and one more "Injustice", if at all.

 

[Undergroundepict]

^Nice post.

Likely it is a binding contract prohibiting all online or recorded communication. Things that shouldn't be legal...


You would think companies like WB could only benefit from having employees (who were once very active here, and were hired largely on the basis of their recognizability in the community) actively and regularly discuss the game with others here.

A contract stipulating that you cannot post leaks, complaints, or give out any unsanctioned opinions or details of the company seems reasonable, but to absolutely prohibit where somebody can post on the internet, regardless of what they say, seems a little dehumanizing. Anyways, welcome to America, I suppose.


As for the streaming and communication issues in general with NRS, let's see where it goes. Them streaming those patch notes could simply be an anomoly used to drum up hype, or it could be the beginning of a change in strategy. We'll find out. If it is the latter, however, then I would expect the quality of the streams to successively improve as time goes on.

 

[GLoRToR]

You would think companies like WB could only benefit from having employees (who were once very active here, and were hired largely on the basis of their recognizability in the community) actively and regularly discuss the game with others here.

A contract stipulating that you cannot post leaks, complaints, or give out any unsanctioned opinions or details of the company seems reasonable, but to absolutely prohibit where somebody can post on the internet, regardless of what they say, seems a little dehumanizing. Anyways, welcome to America, I suppose.


As for the streaming and communication issues in general with NRS, let's see where it goes. Them streaming those patch notes could simply be an anomoly used to drum up hype, or it could be the beginning of a change in strategy. We'll find out. If it is the former, however, then I would expect the quality of the streams to successively improve as time goes on.

Products are developed on a deadline. Once the product is on a decent course towards a deadline they drop the line.
Marketing -> Sales
Once it's out on the market they may adjust it a few times but truth is that all they care for is income: the days where quality mattered, are long gone.

 

[Undergroundepict]

Products are developed on a deadline. Once the product is on a decent course towards a deadline they drop the line.
Marketing -> Sales
Once it's out on the market they may adjust it a few times but truth is that all they care for is income: the days where quality mattered, are long gone.

DLC still needs marketing. Injustice 2 probably will as well.

By improving the quality of their communication and the game, they are marketing themselves, which = money.