Who is better? Version 2.0

[Error]

Wow what makes ww 7-3, I have never played a black adam and thought that I didn't have to outplay them to win. It's heavily footsie based up close, he has the edge full screen, and he has great mobility. What am I missing here?

Besides having to respect her air charge, B1 is a better footsies tool because it seems to have little recovery on whiff and I believe it's 2 frames faster, so she can b1 and back dash to whiff punish a B2/B23 attempt, and of course her B2 out-ranges all his normals.. She also doesn't care about his wake-ups because her jump arc is so high, yet at the same time her hurtbox shrinks or AA'ing her is tricky so you either have to dash out or block on wake-up every time. She rarely needs meter so she always has more meter than Adam so clashing is always a risk and she can just pushblock trait cancels. He can't zone at all, wake -up and she plays much better up close, do the math.

 

[Drizzle]

I'm not arguing that it isn't our advantage but 7-3 seems strong, sure IADG beats a lot but like you said, he has options. My main thing in this match up is midrange, how do we outrange him? We have b2 sure, but that's overhead and he can simply walk back and punish. We have to get to b1 range, and while IADG certainly helps us do that, his b2 outranges it by quite a bit. Thanks for an actual response though, this was a lot more helpful than Quarks...

I don't think he can whiff punish b2 because he doesn't have anything with that kind of range. His MB f3/b3 aren't very good so that's not a very good option either. I think out-ranging him with b2/demigoddess matters quite a bit when you have the life lead since a lot of his usual options become risky (dashing to get close, lightning, jumping back to look for divekick punishes). His b2 has more range than b1 but blocking it isn't that scary unless he has trait, because of cross-up divekicks. If he doesn't have trait you can just block and be fine. I'd be more scared of blocking WoWo's b1 than Adam's b2. You always have meter to burn so you can spend it pushblocking if you don't want to deal with it, or on stuff like bounce cancelling demigoddess to beat a b2 check. Full-screen he has lightning but it doesn't trip guard like it used to, and black magic rarely AA's. Jumping forward is not a bad idea, or you can just walk. It doesn't take very long before you're in iaDG range and he has to respect it. I think it just comes down to WoWo having much better risk/reward in the match-up. It might not be a 3-7 but it's definitely bad.

 

[M2Dave]

How does each perform against the better characters in the game?

Aquaman - both lose 6:4
Bane - I guess both perform about the same
Batgirl - both lose 6:4
Batman - Raven performs slightly better
Doomsday - Black Adam performs a lot better
Flash - Black Adam performs slightly better
Martian Manhunter - both lose 6:4
Sinestro - Black Adam performs slightly better
Superman - Raven performs slightly better
Wonder Woman - Raven performs slightly better
Zod - Raven performs a lot better

Raven also has issues versus Grundy while Black Adam has issues versus Cyborg.

There seems to be no big difference. Both are mid tier characters.

Black Adam is second most normalized character in the game, after Scorpion.

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

That's what I'm thinking too. So it's just the question of what's better, having a MU chart that has maybe 2-3 more losing MU but a bunch of lopsided MU in your favor or a bunch of 5-5? I would take Sinestro's.

I would take wonder woman's. Having stability and a more even mu chart is better than having a polarized mu chart, especially in tournament. That is why I have argued that death stroke is a better sinestro.

 

[Crathen]

Raven and Black Adam are mostly equals but i'd give a very slight edge to BA only for his mixup potential , Raven has basically none.

And Wonder Woman is more well rounded than Sinestro in terms of matchups so i'd give her a slight edge over him.

 

[Blind_Ducky]

Raven and Black Adam are mostly equals but i'd give a very slight edge to BA only for his mixup potential , Raven has basically none.

And Wonder Woman is more well rounded than Sinestro in terms of matchups so i'd give her a slight edge over him.

Dude I hit @WoundCowboy with f2 on block into b12 lift like 90% of the time. The 50/50 is real.

 

[M2Dave]

I would take wonder woman's. Having stability and a more even mu chart is better than having a polarized mu chart, especially in tournament. That is why I have argued that death stroke is a better sinestro.

LOL

If @GGA 16 Bit and I are in the same Skype call, you had better not join.

Your downplaying has reached ludicrous proportions.

 

[Crathen]

Dude I hit @WoundCowboy with f2 on block into b12 lift like 90% of the time. The 50/50 is real.

How could i not think about dis?!Looks new broken tech to me , raven top 5.

 

[cR_whiteboi]

I would take wonder woman's. Having stability and a more even mu chart is better than having a polarized mu chart, especially in tournament. That is why I have argued that death stroke is a better sinestro.

so having three bad mus at most, quite alot of 7-3s in your favor and the rest even or your favor is worse than a mostly 5-5 mu chart?

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

so having three bad mus at most, quite alot of 7-3s in your favor and the rest even or your favor is worse than a mostly 5-5 mu chart?

His 7-3 MUs are Arrow, Catwoman, Cyborg, Lex, and Hawkgirl. I don't call that "quite alot". Also sure, on paper Sinestro's overall chart might look better because he has some matchups that are skewed in his favor. But then he has really difficult MUs like Martian and Batman, and then an impossible MU with Aquaman. I don't care about who technically has a better tier placement, I care about who has a more even MU chart and is more tournament viable.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

His 7-3 MUs are Arrow, Catwoman, Cyborg, Lex, and Hawkgirl. I don't call that "quite alot". Also sure, on paper Sinestro's overall chart might look better because he has some matchups that are skewed in his favor. But then he has really difficult MUs like Martian and Batman, and then an impossible MU with Aquaman. I don't care about who technically has a better tier placement, I care about who has a more even MU chart and is more tournament viable.

Joker?

 

[The Highlander]

I don't think he can whiff punish b2 because he doesn't have anything with that kind of range. His MB f3/b3 aren't very good so that's not a very good option either. I think out-ranging him with b2/demigoddess matters quite a bit when you have the life lead since a lot of his usual options become risky (dashing to get close, lightning, jumping back to look for divekick punishes). His b2 has more range than b1 but blocking it isn't that scary unless he has trait, because of cross-up divekicks. If he doesn't have trait you can just block and be fine. I'd be more scared of blocking WoWo's b1 than Adam's b2. You always have meter to burn so you can spend it pushblocking if you don't want to deal with it, or on stuff like bounce cancelling demigoddess to beat a b2 check. Full-screen he has lightning but it doesn't trip guard like it used to, and black magic rarely AA's. Jumping forward is not a bad idea, or you can just walk. It doesn't take very long before you're in iaDG range and he has to respect it. I think it just comes down to WoWo having much better risk/reward in the match-up. It might not be a 3-7 but it's definitely bad.

I believe he can punish it with instant divekick, BM, and Lightning, but yes I agree with the rest of your points.

Besides having to respect her air charge, B1 is a better footsies tool because it seems to have little recovery on whiff and I believe it's 2 frames faster, so she can b1 and back dash to whiff punish a B2/B23 attempt, and of course her B2 out-ranges all his normals.. She also doesn't care about his wake-ups because her jump arc is so high, yet at the same time her hurtbox shrinks or AA'ing her is tricky so you either have to dash out or block on wake-up every time. She rarely needs meter so she always has more meter than Adam so clashing is always a risk and she can just pushblock trait cancels. He can't zone at all, wake -up and she plays much better up close, do the math.

I did the math, sure we have an advantage, but 7-3?! You listed a lot problems, but you failed to mention the things he has going for him or that certain things work both ways. She has good mix-ups and great footsie tools but these are the same across all her other match-ups... If you read a backdash you can easily catch it with divekick, and you can't anti air as well but your j1 has way more priority than any air normal she has and beats demi-goddess. It's a guessing game skewed in our favour definitely, but do you really think it's on the same level as lex sinestro? This is probably why numbers aren't the best way to discuss match-ups...

 

[Error]

@The Highlander He can't punish instant demigodess at all, and Drizzle is able to do it so low to the ground it's ridiculous. I meant her can't AA her after a knockdown, he just has to block whatever she does because she can jump over lightning cage and punish it on her way down, her footsies tools are especially strong in this MU because he can't keep her out at all so she's always in her comfort zone, which is out of Adam's reach, and since she always has meter, his trait cancel pressure isn't too scary either. If he can't do either of the things he's decent at, which are keep away and trait cancel mix-ups, what is he supposed to do? Also j1 will usually trade with Demi-goddess, which is 5% to her 10% she just effectively shuts down most of his game-play and forces him to make risky and meter dependent reads.

Lex-Sinestro might look worse because Lex is getting zoned out so the struggle is more apparent.

 

[Blind_Ducky]

His 7-3 MUs are Arrow, Catwoman, Cyborg, Lex, and Hawkgirl. I don't call that "quite alot". Also sure, on paper Sinestro's overall chart might look better because he has some matchups that are skewed in his favor. But then he has really difficult MUs like Martian and Batman, and then an impossible MU with Aquaman. I don't care about who technically has a better tier placement, I care about who has a more even MU chart and is more tournament viable.

Boohoo. You have a couple 4-6s.