General/Other - Erron Black What kind of changes would you like to see for erron in kp2?

[21122]

2 Mid Starter
Sand Trap +24 again
Ex-Sand +9

Ought to bring him back up to A+

 

[joeldm]

D3 and D4 has 11 frames of start-up but D4 gives us more hit advantage and almost the same cancel advantage of D3.
Then D3 could have a faster than d4.
D3 could 7 or 9 frames of start-up.

 

[21122]

All I want is Erron to be buffed enough so I don't have to work hard to win my games

 

[Thanilla Ice]

Marksman isn't the worst. Seriously if they buff the shit out of Erron when he didn't need them then everybodys gonna be bandwagoning the character and have an unoriginal play style -_- 21122 db2 jailing is asking for too much they can't poke out right there anyways

 

[ienjoywinning]

As long as they don't start buffing Mileena and the other extremely downplayed characters, Erron Black will be good as he is. Now, if everyone gets a buff, then most of what you're suggesting should be considered.

Caltrops should still have the first hit bonus. It's not easy to get away with setting Caltrops before your opponent hits you, let alone setting them up and having your opponent fall for the trap.

Seriously, stop requesting changes; it's disgusting. Like I said, the only scenario where Erron Black would need to be touched is when everyone else undeservingly gets touched also.

EDIT: What do you mean by "More hitstun on f13 ex sg so they cant jump out for free but they can still armor"? People can jump out of F13 into EX Sand Grenade?!

They can jump , they'll get hit but lose 3% and get knockdown and be able to roll.

 

[Zabru]

Something about seeing an erron black main ask for buffs (or in the case of TC and erron,quan and lao)and saying things like: "so they could at least respect something" hurts me in my Kenshi scrotum if you get what I mean. Actually though I think I might be respecting and playing the erron MU wrong. You see I kinda left this game for a while there. When I left ppl were like: "Erron is really good and def top 10 with tons of mixups and options". When I cam back all were like: "He is alright but not a top tier character now that he is starting to be understood"

Is there a thread that explains this or could someone help me out?

 

[ienjoywinning]

I think he's fine as is tbh, but if I were going to ask for reasonable buffs they would be:

-maybe a small buff to backdash? It's his most glaring weakness but also a part of who he is as a character
-buff to either d2 or Sand Gust's startup so he has a more consistent answer to jumping
-EX slide having some advantage on hit

None of this is necessary but it would be nice.

Also get your own avatar, boy

Yeah i guess i went abit too far with the buffs lol but like what that guy said if they're giving all of the a tiers or a+ tiers buffs then why not? Also you've noticed the picture eh xD i just liked it so i stole it

 

[Desperdicio]

They can jump , they'll get hit but lose 3% and get knockdown and be able to roll.

Boy, that sucks. Erron Black must be worse than I thought. The guys I play against don't know they can do that. So whenever someone doesn't have meter and they guess the overhead, they jump and you just lost a bar for nothing, and whenever they have meter, you eat a BnB. Very nice.

 

[ienjoywinning]

Boy, that sucks. Erron Black must be worse than I thought. The guys I play against don't know they can do that. So whenever someone doesn't have meter and they guess the overhead, they jump and you just lost a bar for nothing, and whenever they have meter, you eat a BnB. Very nice.

Yep it sucks , they should still let you armor through it but you should not be able to jump out and tech roll like that

 

[Crathen]

Thing is how do you balance Erron , there are 2 ways for it , one is buffing him around the current S tier , for that he'd need the following insane buffs:

- Better backdash
- s1 startup now 7 frames
- d1 startup 7 frames
- Cmd Grab +20 on hit
- Slide starts up in 10 frames and low profiling frames around frame 12
- EX slide more adv on hit
- f2 startup 9 frames on startup
- EX sand Granade +10 on block
- f13 cancel advantage increased so that EX SG jails
- Extended hitbox on j1 and j2 autocorrection on crossups increased
- EX sand gust has now armor and starts up in 10 frames

Marksman

- Df1 5 less recovery frames before he cancels the animation , less recovery on hit
- db1 10 frames shaved off startup , more adv on hit

Outlaw

- EX Sand Toss startup 10 frames and restands
- f22 +2 on block

He'd be insane and still he'd be just top 5

Now you could balance him ( and would like more ) around the A+ tier and eliminate some of his biggest weaknesses with buffs like:

- Cmd grab now +14 on hit
- f2 startup increased to 10 frames
- EX Sand gust now has 1 hit of armor
- Slide starts up in 12 frames
- EX slide more adv on hit
- Slightly better backdash

Marksman

- df1 can cancel 3 frames earlier to make some links easier
- db1 7 frames shaved off startup , more adv on hit

Outlaw

- Ex Sand Toss restands , doesn't restand after regular sand toss has been used in a combo

Some of you guys would say that's an insane amount of buffs but i disagree , it would cover Erron strenghts wich is ground game and upclose offense while giving him a consistent answer to jumps, he'd still be getting outzoned by projectiles and wouldn't give his EX SG advantage guaranteed options while giving him a check to cover ducking normals after being + 5 or more / opponent being - 5 with f24 , he'd still have gaps in his 50 50s and tick throw strings. Marksman would have a meaning being used with now having a few + frames cancels ( best being like +2 from 21122 ) on block and db1 being a little bit safer to throw out in neutral thanks to increased startup. Command grab reward would be now a good and has a meaninful option when to choose to end combos w cmd grab for corner carry instead of sacrificing a lot of corner carry for oki and tick throws have now good reward when successful.

 

[ienjoywinning]

Thing is how do you balance Erron , there are 2 ways for it , one is buffing him around the current S tier , for that he'd need the following insane buffs:

- Better backdash
- s1 startup now 7 frames
- d1 startup 7 frames
- Cmd Grab +20 on hit
- Slide starts up in 10 frames and low profiling frames around frame 12
- EX slide more adv on hit
- f2 startup 9 frames on startup
- EX sand Granade +10 on block
- f13 cancel advantage increased so that EX SG jails
- Extended hitbox on j1 and j2 autocorrection on crossups increased
- EX sand gust has now armor and starts up in 10 frames

Marksman

- Df1 5 less recovery frames before he cancels the animation , less recovery on hit
- db1 10 frames shaved off startup , more adv on hit

Outlaw

- EX Sand Toss startup 10 frames and restands
- f22 +2 on block

He'd be insane and still he'd be just top 5

Now you could balance him ( and would like more ) around the A+ tier and eliminate some of his biggest weaknesses with buffs like:

- Cmd grab now +14 on hit
- f2 startup increased to 10 frames
- EX Sand gust now has 1 hit of armor
- Slide starts up in 12 frames
- EX slide more adv on hit
- Slightly better backdash

Marksman

- df1 can cancel 3 frames earlier to make some links easier
- db1 7 frames shaved off startup , more adv on hit

Outlaw

- Ex Sand Toss restands , doesn't restand after regular sand toss has been used in a combo

Some of you guys would say that's an insane amount of buffs but i disagree , it would cover Erron strenghts wich is ground game and upclose offense while giving him a consistent answer to jumps, he'd still be getting outzoned by projectiles and wouldn't give his EX SG advantage guaranteed options while giving him a check to cover ducking normals after being + 5 or more / opponent being - 5 with f24 , he'd still have gaps in his 50 50s and tick throw strings. Marksman would have a meaning being used with now having a few + frames cancels ( best being like +2 from 21122 ) on block and db1 being a little bit safer to throw out in neutral thanks to increased startup. Command grab reward would be now a good and has a meaninful option when to choose to end combos w cmd grab for corner carry instead of sacrificing a lot of corner carry for oki and tick throws have now good reward when successful.

Could not agree more , buff erron
Also he doesnt have any hard cancels except 11b3 gc so that isn't needed tbh

 

[Crathen]

Could not agree more , buff erron
Also he doesnt have any hard cancels except 11b3 gc so that isn't needed tbh

Marksman isn't seen outside a few ones ( like Dartharma ) , the buff would make him have better pressure options on block mainly , easier comboability just lowers the execution barrier so more players might enjoy him , won't tecnically make him better , just a bit easier to use.

 

[ienjoywinning]

Marksman isn't seen outside a few ones ( like Dartharma ) , the buff would make him have better pressure options on block mainly , easier comboability just lowers the execution barrier so more players might enjoy him , won't tecnically make him better , just a bit easier to use.

I'll be completely honest and say that i like it when he has an excution barrier so not everyone could use him

 

[Crathen]

I'll be completely honest and say that i like it when he has an excution barrier so not everyone could use him

That's fine but you'd still have to be on point for his cancels , won't make him piss easy to use and even then who cares? The variation is non existent in tournament play , i'd rather watch it play knowing he's a bit easier than it having high execution and never see it

 

[ienjoywinning]

That's fine but you'd still have to be on point for his cancels , won't make him piss easy to use and even then who cares? The variation is non existent in tournament play , i'd rather watch it play knowing he's a bit easier than it having high execution and never see it

Thats true , but do you think we dont see this variation much because of the excution? Or because of that its weaker and less effective than the other two ones ?

 

[ATP2014]

The only buff Erron needs is to have his cowboy hat in all 3 variations. Give us a trenchcoat alternate costume with the hat!

 

[N00B]

I dont know about Erron too much, but i think he needs something that helps him get out from pressure, he strugglin against pressure. Maybe 6 frames d1 and 7-9 frames slide and ex slide, would be good.
And also Marksman definetelly needs buffs , but i dont know what buffs...lol.< Dartharma knows

 

[Desperdicio]

Thats true , but do you think we dont see this variation much because of the excution? Or because of that its weaker and less effective than the other two ones ?

I think it's at least as good as the other two; possibly better. I'll start using it more often once I master the execution.

The only buff Erron needs is to have his cowboy hat in all 3 variations. Give us a trenchcoat alternate costume with the hat!

I actually started to like the skin without the hat after a while. Gives him an interesting touch.

I dont know about Erron too much, but i think he needs something that helps him get out from pressure, he strugglin against pressure. Maybe 6 frames d1 and 7-9 frames slide and ex slide, would be good.
And also Marksman definetelly needs buffs , but i dont know what buffs...lol.< Dartharma knows

I don't think Marksman needs buffs, and those buffs for Outlaw would be too much. His D1 is already a very powerful tool, and the slide is something risky to use only every now and then: the way it is now, you have to actually think before going for it, and that's good.

 

[ienjoywinning]

I think it's at least as good as the other two; possibly better. I'll start using it more often once I master the execution.



I actually started to like the skin without the hat after a while. Gives him an interesting touch.



I don't think Marksman needs buffs, and those buffs for Outlaw would be too much. His D1 is already a very powerful tool, and the slide is something risky to use only every now and then: the way it is now, you have to actually think before going for it, and that's good.

But even if he does make the risk and succeeds he is still -3 on hit ( ex slide) so its still not your turn

 

[21122]

I don't think NRS will give him aby buffs but hopefully im wrong.

 

[Desperdicio]

But even if he does make the risk and succeeds he is still -3 on hit ( ex slide) so its still not your turn

That's probably because EX Slide has armor. Basically, it's very easy to use, as long as your opponent is doing anything else besides blocking. Slide requires a lot of thought; EX Slide does not.

 

[21122]

Moves on hit should not be negative. I personally think that is dumb. Why should people be punished for landing a successful attack lol.

 

[Desperdicio]

Moves on hit should not be negative. I personally think that is dumb. Why should people be punished for landing a successful attack lol.

There are some attacks that are too easy to land, so a slight negativity is needed. I see nothing wrong with that. It's not as if those attacks were punishable; you just can't abuse them.

 

[21122]

So I was in practice mode with marksman and this is my hoped buff

EX-DB1 startup reduced a few frames to make it guaranteed after 21122
EX-DB1 ability to hold the towards opponent button to stop Erron Black from moving when unloading

Since EX-DB1 is +15 on block

21122 ~ EX-DB1 for days

 

[dwz_mk9]

All these suggestions are just my opinion, as I think he is a fair character now. Still very good mix-ups, corner carry, and damage. But if I were to want changes, these would be:

Universal

· Make command grab just a tad more plus on hit. I’m thinking something along the lines of plus 5-10.

· 112 is -5. -10 is just stupid.

· Make F1,3,2 -10.

· Return the recovery frames on B3,2,U1 to 23 frames.

· Maybe make the overhead 1 frame faster, but it doesn’t need it.


Outlaw


· Make F3, 4+2 -4 and brutality attached to it would be cool as well.

· Sand Toss has a little faster start up.


Marksman


· Make DB1 faster on start-up (make shots mid maybe?).

· DB2 faster on start-up; something less than 20 frames.


Gunslinger


· Make 21122 SOS3 a true block string… Maybe…


One change that should not happen is removing the caltrops first hit bonus and having the caltrops not kill you. Kotal Kahn’s sun does both of those and I don’t see anyone complaining about those.