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Question What characters do you believe have a variation with no bad match ups?

Colest

Mid-Tier 'Mancer Main
No. It's which character wins most out of 10 matches. So no .5
The numbers indicate advantage in a matchup. If one has an advantage over another, it is a 6... if it is fairly even it is 5. The traditional scale is:


0 Impossible to Win

1 Close to unwinable

2 Extreme Disadvantage

3 Large disadvantage

4 Some disadvantage

5 Relatively Even

6 Some advantage

7 Large advantage

8 Extreme advantage

9 Close to unlosable

10 Definite win


5.5 would indicate a minute / insignificant win. The advantage is negligible and pretty much non-existent. By not committing to whole numbers, you are leaving it open to debate and are not committing to a win or loss. Does one of them have some advantage? Well that is a 6. Is it negligible/debatable? It is 5. Using 0.5 indicates a lack of commitment to a winning matchup and just muddies the waters.
This isn't true. This matchup figure has never been a straight prediction of who wins a number of rounds out of 10 but rather an overall average. That's why 2-8 matchups are pretty much impossible to win even though the numbers indicate they should win 20% of the time. MU charts use .5 all the time. Judging any slight advantage as automatically 6-4 is asinine and defeats the purpose of a MU chart as providing a standard to compare MU difficulties.

Good example:
 
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Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
I should also mention that other large-scale fighting games such as Smash Brothers and even Street Fighter use 0.5 variations in their Match-ups.

 
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JTB123

>>R2 - BF4 = Unblockable.
What about Hellfire? Good pressure, vortex, aura counters a lot, and he can't be zoned. Can any scorp players comment on this?
Hellfire definitely has some losing MUs. D'Vorah, Cassie, Johnny Cage and Jax to name a few.

Scorpion struggles the most when people understand that in order to give him the most trouble you need to take advantage of his lack of range.

And you can definitely zone Scorpion. You can't mindlessly throw projectiles and win, but you can definitely zone him. It's just not as simple as most think.
 

IrishMantis

Most humble shit talker ever!!!
I think everybody has atleast 1 bad MU

Who does BS Shinnok lose to?
I'm guessing fast teleport chars?
 

x TeeJay o

Canary Cry Gapless Pressure
Here come the dumb threads about characters people probably have no experience with or against and just say shit cus they see sonic fox use them. Same shit happened with kitana smh.
Acidic Loses To:
HQT
Mournful Kitana
Piercing Mileena
Tempest Lao(His Hat Toss Can Keep Him Out Pretty Easily & Ex Spin)
Shinnok
Possibly Johnny
You can clearly see that NOBODY knew the matchup against acidic and the man using him even said it. If you let him just overhead tail flip you into the corner every game for free then obviously you will lose. Acidic strength is in the corner which is where everyone ended up at when they played it. If you allow yourself to get cornered all game then obviously he will beat everyone. That could be said for half the damn cast. Please stop
 
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jackempty0

Born on a Monday
Thats the issue though, as I see it. There are things that cannot simply be defined as "is it advantage or not".

I understand you are not trying to be rude or obtuse, I'm simply stating that for a character like Ferra/Torr, there is so much to consider when you have the dynamic of both of them and things like variable blockstun.
I'd be lying if I said I was unsure of the impact that ripping 84% off of someone's lifebar can have on a match, but if you take that into account, then it's hard to say exactly what the numbers are.

So if you asked me what the MU was between Ferra/Torr and character X, I'd have to clarify questions like "Do they know about this" or "Can they deal with that" or "Can they comeback from 16%?"
If I felt something was advantageous to them, I would need to give credit to the opponent's possible options out of it. I wouldn't be able to just slather on a 6-4 sticker, especially if the MU changes based on something as player-dependent as a hard read for a trade. This is the issue I have with the point of saying "If yes, then this. If no, then that." It entirely discounts the players. On paper it may be one thing, but in practice it can't be so clear.

"Boss Toss can confirm for 48% when trading with a poke" is not the same as "Boss Toss has/hasn't traded with a poke for 48%". The possibility vs the reality of the situation can't be broken down in such a way.
If I won by 1% because of a lucky guess or a really hard read on the player's habits, then is that my character winning or is it me winning?
If a person pokes at me and eats 90% in a bad trade for them, is that my character's ability to do it, or is it my ability to get the situation to happen in the first place?
I don't think it gives enough to the aspect of the game actually being played. Full numbers are what theories are made of, in my opinion.
i can only reply to a small part of what you said, but shouldnt reads be taken out of the question when determining matchups. i figure it should be more about comparing options and how those options play out against each other in an actual match.
 

Colest

Mid-Tier 'Mancer Main
i can only reply to a small part of what you said, but shouldnt reads be taken out of the question when determining matchups. i figure it should be more about comparing options and how those options play out against each other in an actual match.
A matchup number is correlated with the number of reads needed to be made to win the match. Reads are inherently a risk so MU's define the number of risks or opponent mistakes that need to be made to be successful in addition to theory and skill relation of the players. Obviously the less favorable the matchup, the more risks you have to take on prediction.
 
I really want to know if Shaolin has a bad MU as well.

Correct me if I'm wrong but can't Acidic get outzoned by Fullscreen Zoning?
All alien has to do is walk up a little bit I mean a few steps and he'll be able to shoot his air acid and use his b3 and jump 4
 

HuttonMD

ADM Riddles
Here come the dumb threads about characters people probably have no experience with or against and just say shit cus they see sonic fox use them. Same shit happened with kitana smh.
Acidic Loses To:
HQT
Mournful Kitana
Piercing Mileena
Tempest Lao(His Hat Toss Can Keep Him Out Pretty Easily & Ex Spin)
Shinnok
Possibly Johnny
You can clearly see that NOBODY knew the matchup against acidic and the man using him even said it. If you let him just overhead tail flip you into the corner every game for free then obviously you will use. Acidic strength is in the corner which is where everyone ended up at when they played it. If you allow yourslef to get cornered all game then obviously he will beat everyone. That could be said for half the damn cast. Please stop
Why is MU discussion a dumb thread? If it doesn't turn into a toxic wasteland and people are actually discussing MU why is it dumb?

We need more MU discussion instead of "why my character or your character is trash now" threads

I don't know every MU inside and out but that doesn't make my opinion less valid it's just my personal experience and if someone can explain the MU to me and help me understand better then that is where growth can come from.
 

x TeeJay o

Canary Cry Gapless Pressure
All alien has to do is walk up a little bit I mean a few steps and he'll be able to shoot his air acid and use his b3 and jump 4
Alien loses full screen zoning in acidic. That's not gonna do anything just shooting u3 wont touch an opponent who doesn't jump. Walk forward? Sure if u have high projectiles but he can crawl.
 

x TeeJay o

Canary Cry Gapless Pressure
Why is MU discussion a dumb thread? If it doesn't turn into a toxic wasteland and people are actually discussing MU why is it dumb?

We need more MU discussion instead of "why my character or your character is trash now" threads

I don't know every MU inside and out but that doesn't make my opinion less valid it's just my personal experience and if someone can explain the MU to me and help me understand better then that is where growth can come from.
Well because you named characters that all have losing matchups. I understand you have your own opinion and that's fine, i just got annoyed at the fact this came out on the heels of ESL which is eerily ironic.


EDIT:I specifically flipped out about Acidic. I just feel like most ppl honestly just listen to the pros or what everyone else about a character without actually doing their own homework. I used to be the same way . Sorry if the anger was misdirected
 
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Scott The Scot

Where there is smoke, there is cancer.
Shang Tsung and Sinestro where also mid tier.......... According to Wound :DOGE
Real talk: nobody has ever, on record at least, played Shang at the highest level and the character is serverly underrated in MK9. He had the ability to turn any matchup into a 6-4 temporarily lol.