General/Other - Grandmaster What character can do well against GM Sub-Zero?

[zoofs]

I would say opening up Devorah/Tremor in the nuetral is 10x easier than Devorah trying to get out of the corner against Grandmaster

why did you single out dvorah getting out of the corner? also she has options when used sparingly and intelligently on actual reads not just throwing out stuff for example: d4, d3, f22, and a pretty good njp. All it takes is one good d4 on hit to go into pressure and get you pretty far out of the corner and back to playing your game. Also no it's actually super hard to open up tremor in the neutral, he definitely controls the pace and makes you have to think constantly while playing very patient just to get in; then proceeds to make you play safely and cautiously while up close even. I think you're thinking about this at a very basic level, his corner oki is not the mu in its entirety.

 

[ForeverKing]

At the risk of breaking being out of character and sounding like I'm upplaying, right before buff/nerf season at that, I cannot respond properly to this message.

Idk, I just feel like Sub having Devorah in the corner is definitely more scary then Sub having to play neutral with her.

Deborah's weaknesses are bigger than Sub's. She is free as fuck on knockdown

 

[Solignac]

Idk, I just feel like Sub having Devorah in the corner is definitely more scary then Sub having to play neutral with her.

Deborah's weaknesses are bigger than Sub's. She is free as fuck on knockdown

I'm really interested to see more of your Grandmaster, King.

 

[zoofs]

I do play Sub, and I mopped up Slayer's HQT pretty good made him want to stop playing the matchup. His zoning was nothing, all it takes is for you to slide under one projectile and you're in.

D4 punishes blockstrings into ice clone yeah, but he doesn't get a combo or anything if he hits you with D4. It's whatever. He can hit me with 10 D4's but if I open Predator up once and get him into the corner, that could easily be the end of the match right there.

You also have to remember Predator has some of the slowest armor in the game, he is free as fuck on knockdown. Sub is going ham if he hits Predator with anything. Of you knock Predator down and do B33 on his wake up, it will beat his armor

Lets be real, you vs slayer playing secondaries is not really the be all and end all of the mu, regardless of the fact that you are top players. Sliding under one projectile is one of the biggest bills I've ever heard/read in my entire time of playing mk, what about the fact that you can zone patiently and keep him out while being wary of slides? not to mention you definitely 100% can punish a slide on whiff on a read, its not the same thing as punishing something like a shadow kick but its very doable and if online warriors that aren't even on your radar can punish slide on whiff there must be something going wrong during your matches.

I've already gone over the fact that sub matchups also are not 100% revolved around corner oki and there are definitely alternatives to mashing armor on wakeup and getting shredded, even if it may be very close to that. Predator does have a hard time on knockdown just like tremor in the corner (as well as most of the cast) but the same thing still stands, he does extremely well in the fullscreen game + the neutral + has more options in the corner than most of the cast.

 

[Zoidberg747]

She could have a better neutral then Sub, obviously it's nice her limbs go through the clone. But her neutral being slightly better than his isn't as much of a game changer as him having her in the corner. It's not like you always have to have an ice clone up at all times.

Grandmaster might have the best corner game out of the entire cast, and with how crazy corner carry and rushdown is in this game that's a serious game changer to have the corner game that Grandmaster has

She doesn't have a slightly better neutral, she completely shits on his neutral. Dvorah has some of the better tools to use in the neutral than anyone in the game.

It seems like you are saying he has no bad MUs in an attempt to point out how broke his corner game is. However certain characters like Dvorah don't really struggle as much as other characters do against him in the corner. That's because if at any point I guess right on his oki and block his shit, I can immediately d4 or d1 and get him off.

His corner game is the only thing keeping that MU out of 7-3 territory. There is no way that MU is 5-5.

 

[ForeverKing]

why did you single out dvorah getting out of the corner? also she has options when used sparingly and intelligently on actual reads not just throwing out stuff for example: d4, d3, f22, and a pretty good njp. All it takes is one good d4 on hit to go into pressure and get you pretty far out of the corner and back to playing your game. Also no it's actually super hard to open up tremor in the neutral, he definitely controls the pace and makes you have to think constantly while playing very patient just to get in; then proceeds to make you play safely and cautiously while up close even.

I single out Devorah because her weaknesses against Sub are just as scary as Sub's weaknesses against her, I for sure wouldn't say she has any type of advantage.

As far as Aftershock goes, I've never seen that matchup honestly. But my like 2-day Grandmaster was going back and forth with my brother's Crystalline (after he just won Rumble in the Tundra) and it seemed like a pretty straightforward matchup. I could only imagine if I actually practiced Sub more. Even as godlike as Tremor is with his flash parry and sky rock and all these ridiculous tools, Sub Zero's corner game is just way too good to count him out of any matchup.

It's almost like Summoner Quan Chi, yeah he has problems and weaknesses and he gets rushed the fuck down and when he gets cornered he dies, but his 60% combos and vortex and zoning and ridiculous unbreakables are all too much combined to say Summoner Quan Chi loses to anyone.

It's like the same thing with Grandmaster Sub, yeah there are some characters that get around ice clone better than others and yeah there are some characters you can't use the ice clone against as much, but Sub's corner game and meterless damage and safe armored launcher and 50\50's and insta recovery slide all these tools combined are just too good to allow the character to be at disadvantage during any matchup

 

[Skedar70]

Demo or special forces sonya.

 

[ForeverKing]

Lets be real, you vs slayer playing secondaries is not really the be all and end all of the mu, regardless of the fact that you are top players. Sliding under one projectile is one of the biggest bills I've ever heard/read in my entire time of playing mk, what about the fact that you can zone patiently and keep him out while being wary of slides? not to mention you definitely 100% can punish a slide on whiff on a read, its not the same thing as punishing something like a shadow kick but its very doable and if online warriors that aren't even on your radar can punish slide on whiff there must be something going wrong during your matches.

I've already gone over the fact that sub matchups also are not 100% revolved around corner oki and there are definitely alternatives to mashing armor on wakeup and getting shredded. Predator does have a hard time on knockdown just like tremor in the corner (as well as most of the cast) but the same thing still stands, he does extremely well in the fullscreen game + the neutral + has more options in the corner than most of the cast.

Zoning in this game isn't that strong, MKX is a rushdown game. I kind of laugh when I hear people say they are getting zoned out, nobody in MKX really gets zoned out except Goro. Running covers distance way too fast, if Predator isn't chucking lasers one after another then Sub Zero is running in, if Predator is chucking lasers then Sub is sliding under them. I wouldn't say that the zoning is non existentent but good players are only going to get zoned out for so long, it literally takes like one second or less in MKX to make a character run full screen.

So the matchup just comes down to face to face usually, which is about 5-5 between Sub and Predator

 

[SaltShaker]

Deborah's weaknesses are bigger than Sub's. She is free as fuck on knockdown

This is very, very true. But it's harder for Sub to bully D'Vorah like his other MUs.

She can full combo punish some of his clone cancels midscreen for high damage and have him guessing for his life in the corner by the time the combo is done lol. She can pace the entire MU, poke through his clone into block, poke punish his clones, or combo punish his clones, all on reaction. I can't speak for other Sub MUs, but I don't know if anyone can blow up his clone like she can. It becomes "throw out clone at your own risk" not "let me control the neutral with my clone".

On top of that, she can force him to have to come in when midrange because all her normals outranges his, lead to combos or pressure, and her AAs are amazing so he gets blown up jumping in. Playing to her strength with her footsie tools is all he can do midscreen and hope to just outplay the opponent. On the flip side even when he gets in her pressure, cancels, and pokes blow him up. One small mistake and he's back to having a headache. He loses both inside and outside ranges, and obviously has nothing for her full screen. That doesn't sound 5-5.

The only actual talking point Sub has is his corner game, which even that is lessened a bit against D'Vorah. Some of his setups that are amazing in other MUs become useless because of D'Vorah's buttons. Some of the basic stuff like clone into B2 in the corner doesn't even work at all because he'll get full combo'd lol. Meanwhile she gets all of the same corner dirt and high damage 50/50's in the corner against him.

D'Vorah has crappy WUs against everyone and Sub's corner game has always been real, but that isn't enough to push this to 5-5 when she wins pretty much in every other aspect of the MU, some aspects by a significant amount. If I had to put a number on it I would call this 6-4 D'Vorah, but maybe even 6.5.

 

[STB Shujinkydink]

I single out Devorah because her weaknesses against Sub are just as scary as Sub's weaknesses against her, I for sure wouldn't say she has any type of advantage.

As far as Aftershock goes, I've never seen that matchup honestly. But my like 2-day Grandmaster was going back and forth with my brother's Crystalline (after he just won Rumble in the Tundra) and it seemed like a pretty straightforward matchup. I could only imagine if I actually practiced Sub more. Even as godlike as Tremor is with his flash parry and sky rock and all these ridiculous tools, Sub Zero's corner game is just way too good to count him out of any matchup.

It's almost like Summoner Quan Chi, yeah he has problems and weaknesses and he gets rushed the fuck down and when he gets cornered he dies, but his 60% combos and vortex and zoning and ridiculous unbreakables are all too much combined to say Summoner Quan Chi loses to anyone.

It's like the same thing with Grandmaster Sub, yeah there are some characters that get around ice clone better than others and yeah there are some characters you can't use the ice clone against as much, but Sub's corner game and meterless damage and safe armored launcher and 50\50's and insta recovery slide all these tools combined are just too good to allow the character to be at disadvantage during any matchup

I honestly think you underestimate your skill as a player and just chalk it all up to character. Just because you have success with a character doesnt mean that character is as good as you play them. The community needs to realize this. If this were true Erron black and Kitana would be S+ tier. But theyre not, and pretty much everyone agrees with this

 

[G4S Pharaoh]

dvorah, dvorah and dvorah

 

[yucking]

 

[Doombawkz]

I think the MU is kinda interesting from the F/T side. What with the 2 variations having 2 hits of armor on WU and all.

 

[DOOMSDAY-15RUS-]

ok with conter picking but what if people do not like counter picking and want learn best ways at least to make 5/5, as kano for me for example

 

[zoofs]

ok with conter picking but what if people do not like counter picking and want learn best ways at least to make 5/5, as kano for me for example

wat

 

[ragnar0kz28]

There's EX ice clone as well.. and the clone is not her problem (unless it's in the corner). The problem is he has a lot of ways around her machine gun (his slide with a fast ass recovery), EX iceball, his range is way better than hers...
It's in his favor, but probably you will never know since everytime you play someone you win one and leave. I don't even know why I bothered talking to you anyway...

If matches are laggy I leave why would I play if the server is sucking anyways, Iv seen this in a King of the Hill full of killers there was a very good Sub Zero Lamemaster he had over 12 streak and played Tom Brady style, then a guy called Steve Edward or something like that used Full Auto on him and even in the corner he managed to do good using up rockets and machinegun to get rid of the clone, test stuff out first man.

 

[WiseM0nkey]

In my opinion Grandmaster Sub has 0 losing matchups. He can definitely be a pain in the ass to deal with. But a few characters that go 5-5 with him and can handle him are

Tempest
Summoner
Kobu Jutsu
Hish Qu Ten
Shaolin
Swarm Queen
Cryastalline
Boneshaper
Pumped Up
Dragon Fire

where's Buzzsaw Lao tho.

 

[boba_buster]

Sub zero loses the second someone is in d1/d3 range or full screen...period
Just out of sweep distance is the the only time he's ok in the neutral

 

[Kickbykick]

Maybe displacer raiden? Any unsafe clone setup gives raiden like 33% and he gets a teleport.

 

[MoxyLikeAFox]

I think Cybernetic Kano does a decent job handling GM Sub.

 

[Rager Da Prince]

Besides the sub knowledge, what I've learned from this thread is zoofs should have been a choice in the "Who is the best Sub Zero" thread

 

[Error404]

Johnny Cage goes even with him. D4 at max/close to max range goes through clone without getting frozen. If you have bar you can pretty much always punish b2 on block with a full combo , if not in range you reversal sk him. Sub also has to hold your fireballs a lot of the time. The only thing that you have to worry about mid screen is shatter.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

I think a good question to ask is, is sub actually bad midscreen, considering not many characters can regain ground against him?

You don't really have to sacrifice anything as sub to get the opponent to the corner.

Things like punishing unsafe clone cancels and what not is sort of a meta 1 idea.

 

[llabslb]

Match ups that are no doubt unfavourable : Tremor, Predator, Dvorah, Quan Chi and Shaolin Kung Jin

Possibly unfavourable: Liu Kang, Stunt double Cage, Shinnok and Jacqui

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

It's actually amazing how different Madzin and Tom Brady see Sub Zero compared to the rest of you guys, how don't you see how messed up Sub is?

Like I said, you don't even have to risk anything to get the opponent in the corner.

And no, Liu gets messed up by Sub, so does Jacqui.