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Match-up Discussion Smoke Match-Up Discussion Thread (2012 Post-EVO Update)

xSMoKEx

Coward Character User
Can anyone get into the details on why Quan is only 6-4? Quan doesn't really have many options against Smoke--just curious why it isn't 7-3 or maybe even worse at the highest level of play.

Smoke can abuse D1 and SB--poking out is risky, mixing up is risky, and trying to trade trance is suicide.
I do think it is a 7-3 :p

SB eats his tele and projectile. He has nothing good to space with besides his F12 string which is still severely whiff punishable and fairly slow. He can throw out a trance to be risky here and there but if it's blocked you get a free SB punish.

Overall it's rather easy to keep him out while building lots of meter, he doesn't have any scary armor, he is forced to break a lot due to resets thus taking away some of the rune trap treat.
 
I do think it is a 7-3 :p

SB eats his tele and projectile. He has nothing good to space with besides his F12 string which is still severely whiff punishable and fairly slow. He can throw out a trance to be risky here and there but if it's blocked you get a free SB punish.

Overall it's rather easy to keep him out while building lots of meter, he doesn't have any scary armor, he is forced to break a lot due to resets thus taking away some of the rune trap treat.
I 100% agree. This should at least be 7-3.
 

Espio

Kokomo
I do think it is a 7-3 :p

SB eats his tele and projectile. He has nothing good to space with besides his F12 string which is still severely whiff punishable and fairly slow. He can throw out a trance to be risky here and there but if it's blocked you get a free SB punish.

Overall it's rather easy to keep him out while building lots of meter, he doesn't have any scary armor, he is forced to break a lot due to resets thus taking away some of the rune trap treat.
Does it come with sprinkles ;_; ?
 
Hey guys, a little late, but I finally got my MU chart for smoke down. After an entire season of Evo, playing with numerous top players, I have finally come to a conclusion with this MU chart. Feel free to rip it apart or discuss.

6-4 vs Baraka
6-4 vs Cyber Sub-Zero
5-5 vs H cyrax
6-4 vs Cyrax
6-4 vs Ermac
6-4 vs Freddy Krueger
7-3 vs Jade
4-6 vs Jax
4-6 vs Johnny Cage
3-7 vs Kabal
6-4 vs Kano
6-4 vs Kenshi
6-4 vs Kitana
4-6 vs Kung Lao
5-5 vs Liu Kang
6-4 vs Mileena
6-4 vs Nightwolf
7-3 vs Noob
6-4Quan Chi
5-5 vs Raiden
6-4 vs Rain
5-5 vs Reptile
6-4 vs Scorpion
6-4 vs Sektor
6-4 vs Shang Tsung
7-3 vs Sheeva
7-3 vs Sindel
5-5 vs Skarlet
5-5 vs Smoke
4-6 vs Sonya Blade
6-4 vs Stryker
7-3 vs Sub-Zero (edited from 6-4) :)

5 disadvantage MU's
21 advantage MU's

discuss.
completely agree with 6-4 kung lao, and 7-3 kabal. been saying that for a while now
 

GGA Wafflez

the kid
the cyrax-smoke matchup is 6-4 cyrax advantage. questions? comments? concerns?

Reasons why cyrax players think that smoke beats the shit out of cyrax

1. Smoke bomb beats bomb and net as well as teleport punch
2. Smoke away can "secure" a lead and cyrax can't do anything about it
3. Smoke can out range cyrax with b2

any other reasons just post, and gtfo of here w/ the shake

1. Smoke bomb does punish bomb and net. but you can't punish bomb on reaction w/ smoke bomb. the only time cyraxs are getting punished by smoke bomb for throwing out a bomb is when the smoke player uses smoke bomb at the same time or a split second before the bomb comes out. And with net? sure you take damage and it trades, but it's a trade heavily in cyraxs favor. he...
A. Can go into a full combo
B. Can at least get a free jump in punch leading to an amazing 50/50 mixup (block string or command grab... fuck that
2. Smoke away "securing" a lead? maybe against kitana or subzero. against cyrax? smoking away lets cyrax throw out bombs and force the smoke player to play his platforming game. you are constantly on the move. at any moment you can fall into a bomb trap that you don't even know you are getting yourself into. cyrax controls so much space as he does against numerous opponents and it's a problem.
3. Throwing out normals against cyrax is almost as bad as it is against smoke. net. also cyrax's d4 beats any of smoke's far reaching normals. it's faster than his b2, and has just as much range

- cyrax's anti air grab has insanely quick recovery on whif. Jumping around the screen like an idiot using this special to dodge and then punish smoke bomb from almost mid screen makes it almost as dangerous to use as it is against kabal.
- damage... yes they both have resets. but cyrax's armory is far superior to smoke's. breakker traps, unbreakerable high damage combos makes cyrax a much scarier character to get hit against then smoke.

people need to stop depending on net and random bombs.

thanks
 

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
the cyrax-smoke matchup is 6-4 cyrax advantage. questions? comments? concerns?
I still think Smoke has the advantage (6-4) just due to the way it really changes Cyrax's game. He has to respect the smoke bomb and know that anytime he opens his chest he could potentially be launched into full combo or at least a setup if there is a bomb at your feet when you start a juggle. This overall makes him have to play mildly more aggressive and he can put himself in harms way because Smoke's anti-air tools are great here (one wrong read on a smoke bomb and he is going to use meter to break or eat serious damage).

Obviously Cyrax is still a touch of death character with a ton more cheap options than we have here (the resets, unbreakable damage, meter draining net (WTF SOOO DUMB) the command grab mixup that is just begging you to let go of block and eat a net)... but outside of that Smoke has all the tools he needs to punish him extremely hard.
 

GGA Wafflez

the kid
I still think Smoke has the advantage (6-4) just due to the way it really changes Cyrax's game. He has to respect the smoke bomb and know that anytime he opens his chest he could potentially be launched into full combo or at least a setup if there is a bomb at your feet when you start a juggle. This overall makes him have to play mildly more aggressive and he can put himself in harms way because Smoke's anti-air tools are great here (one wrong read on a smoke bomb and he is going to use meter to break or eat serious damage).

Obviously Cyrax is still a touch of death character with a ton more cheap options than we have here (the resets, unbreakable damage, meter draining net (WTF SOOO DUMB) the command grab mixup that is just begging you to let go of block and eat a net)... but outside of that Smoke has all the tools he needs to punish him extremely hard.
smoke cant be spamming smoke bombs and cyrax cant be spamming his bombs... reason smoke cant be spamming is because cyrax can use his anti air grab as a tool to get around and full punish from almost mid screen. cyrax doesnt want to be zoning anyway, and his rush down is extremely underrated. so smoke has to respect not only his bombs, but also his net in case of trading, and his ability to get in so quickly. one anti air grab and an enhanced rag doll is 15% from 3/4 screen
 

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
smoke cant be spamming smoke bombs and cyrax cant be spamming his bombs... reason smoke cant be spamming is because cyrax can use his anti air grab as a tool to get around and full punish from almost mid screen. cyrax doesnt want to be zoning anyway, and his rush down is extremely underrated. so smoke has to respect not only his bombs, but also his net in case of trading, and his ability to get in so quickly. one anti air grab and an enhanced rag doll is 15% from 3/4 screen
Well that is part of the meta game in that MU. I am not saying you should be spamming SB I am saying that he has to respect the threat of it, and I feel like the threat can be enough for you to get a read on how he is going to react. If he likes to do the air parry you can punish it with an anti-air or at least space yourself to get a block string off of it and bring you into your offense.

I know you already know all of this but I really think it is 5-5 at worst to be honest.
 

McNasty

Moist.
The short answer: normals, unbreakable resets. Ill add more when im at a PC. Krayzie's matchup chart explains how it should be done, rush that shit down. Cyrax doesnt need to open his chest to beat smoke outside of hit confirms into GGs.
 
Reactions: LaR

LaR

Noob
Yea Cyrax has better safer strings and much better rushdown/mix ups. He also has frame traps a long rang ranged d1 a d3 buzzsaw which cant be counter poked with d1 or d3, a d4 that leads to a 212/command grab mix up that is hard to tech consistently as it looks like his 2, the same damage but has much better unbreakable damage, he can also punish smoke bomb and if that wasn't enough they for some reason gave him an invincible anti air.
 
6-4 vs Mileena
Seriously? I've practiced so much against good and crappy Mileenas alike, but I still suck against her. Any advice for taking her on? I suck at zoning her and offense is out of the question (unless I'm mistaken).
 

Gh0sty

ばかみたいに無料
Seriously? I've practiced so much against good and crappy Mileenas alike, but I still suck against her. Any advice for taking her on? I suck at zoning her and offense is out of the question (unless I'm mistaken).
As a general rule, Mileena's specials are all extremely punishable by Smoke. I try to lame her out more than I do in any other MU. To say offense is out of the question depends on the degree to which the Mileena your playing is respecting your options to punish.


Sent from my jailbroken iPhone using a pirated copy of Tapatalk
 

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
Seriously? I've practiced so much against good and crappy Mileenas alike, but I still suck against her. Any advice for taking her on? I suck at zoning her and offense is out of the question (unless I'm mistaken).
You really have to just bait out her specials and learn to punish them.
 
You really have to just bait out her specials and learn to punish them.
I try, but I'm just not good enough at it yet. I'll get better though. Thanks a lot. Mileenas a toughie. She's got fast teleports which she can mix up pretty well, a fast projectile, combos and juggling/chain combos to get you out of blocking high and blocking low which is bad for Smoke players in tight spots, and that fast ball which can be easily anticipated, but takes a lot of getting used to.
 

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
I try, but I'm just not good enough at it yet. I'll get better though. Thanks a lot. Mileenas a toughie. She's got fast teleports which she can mix up pretty well, a fast projectile, combos and juggling/chain combos to get you out of blocking high and blocking low which is bad for Smoke players in tight spots, and that fast ball which can be easily anticipated, but takes a lot of getting used to.
I would just play on expert in training mode and work on reacting to her specials and punishing them. If you just want to work on punishes for some of them I would suggest turning wake-up attacks on the dummy and punishing them on knock down.
 
I would just play on expert in training mode and work on reacting to her specials and punishing them. If you just want to work on punishes for some of them I would suggest turning wake-up attacks on the dummy and punishing them on knock down.
Way ahead of ya. Thanks a lot :)
 

HD Smoke

Noob
XSmokeX, wafflez, ribbZ, and frothy where do you guys stand with Smoke at this time? Is he still tournament viable despite what KL, kabal and Sonya do to him? Still consider him top 10?
 

HD Smoke

Noob
Also Wafflez why do you think Smoke beats ermac? Giving the tools wouldn't this match up be 5-5? Smoke has a lot to watch out for such as air fireball, TKP, and a insanely good string in 3,2,1! Plus ermac matches Smoke in damage maybe not as good as smoke but he can do high 40's no bar
 

xSMoKEx

Coward Character User
HD Smoke I think he's definitely still tournament viable but not worth the trouble for anyone looking to simply, "win".

In a FT2 it's harder to play because you really do need to download your opponent, and that's hard to do in potentially 2 games. You also don't have armor or a small hitbox so you need to not only read their footsie habits, but also their pressure tendencies. We all know what happens if you guess wrong... Also, you need to read how they advance on SB + Smoke Away meter building. SB doesn't really control space that well compared to other zoners with a true straight projectile so it's definitely important for Smoke to make good reads and space properly when building meter.

Basically, if you like the character, and aren't all that serious about being the #1 player ever, he's still a good choice. I know I'm done in this game 100%, so I'd still use Smoke if i went to one last event. If you want to win don't use him lmao. Kabal, Sonya and Kenshi should be the only 3 characters that you take into consideration.

I wanted to make a big rant explaining the misconceptions of this character, and core misunderstanding about this game in general by the majority of the community; but then I'd be labelled a downplayer by the match up police all stars so why would I? lol.
 

HD Smoke

Noob
HD Smoke I think he's definitely still tournament viable but not worth the trouble for anyone looking to simply, "win".

In a FT2 it's harder to play because you really do need to download your opponent, and that's hard to do in potentially 2 games. You also don't have armor or a small hitbox so you need to not only read their footsie habits, but also their pressure tendencies. We all know what happens if you guess wrong... Also, you need to read how they advance on SB + Smoke Away meter building. SB doesn't really control space that well compared to other zoners with a true straight projectile so it's definitely important for Smoke to make good reads and space properly when building meter.

Basically, if you like the character, and aren't all that serious about being the #1 player ever, he's still a good choice. I know I'm done in this game 100%, so I'd still use Smoke if i went to one last event. If you want to win don't use him lmao. Kabal, Sonya and Kenshi should be the only 3 characters that you take into consideration.

I wanted to make a big rant explaining the misconceptions of this character, and core misunderstanding about this game in general by the majority of the community; but then I'd be labelled a downplayer by the match up police all stars so why would I? lol.

Make the rant XSmokeX I want to hear it lol and yeah I agree with that Smoke is still top 10 just not cheap like the top 5 are in this game. Although I think it's finally safe to say Smoke needs his resets or he would be bottom 10. And why are you done 100% ? We can't lose another top Smoke we have already lost KT and CD JR!
 

xSMoKEx

Coward Character User
Make the rant XSmokeX I want to hear it lol and yeah I agree with that Smoke is still top 10 just not cheap like the top 5 are in this game. Although I think it's finally safe to say Smoke needs his resets or he would be bottom 10. And why are you done 100% ? We can't lose another top Smoke we have already lost KT and CD JR!
Haven't been playing much, no local comp, no reason to play in general. A bunch of people ruin the offline experience of this game on top of that, not worth it. I'd rather sit at the sidelines and make sure things run smoothy and teach others at this point, it's what i enjoy atm. Come Injustice (assuming it's a decent game) i will be back on my grind though lmao.

I'll sum up my rant quickly:

MK9 players think too much about damage, not offense or defense. Yes, there's a HUGE difference between offense and damage lmao. If your character cannot easily hit the opponent your damage is useless. See that green guy nobody plays? Ermac, yeah him. He does 50% 1 bar consistently but because he cannot reliably hit his opponent it's meaningless in some match ups lol. Smoke does no chip, has no traditional mix ups outside of the universal D4 and B2 overhead, and can drop the reset quite easily. For me to hit you I'm going to do about 35% no bar, unless its some jip that will rarely happen for obvious reasons, nothing too special.

Yes i can zone but the projectile you throw doesn't control space well enough and it does no chip. Your risking 35%+ life everytime you throw one. If you read an attack and try to turtle / space they're in and your in pressure. Smoke has ass defensive options. Offense in this game is prevalent, the only viable zoners are Kabal in some match-ups, Kenshi and Freddy, two out of those 3 can win without zoning anyways lol. Fact is, armor is huge, you NEED to have it or some other form of defensive options such as a small hitbox or decent special to link off of a poke (i.e. cutter). Every time you waste that meter when dropping the resets you bury yourself even more, because now you have no meter to break when you get hit due to your shitty defense lol. Your stuck in a pressure vortex where on hit you get +3, and 0.5% damage. What can you do? pressure and try to get them to block low so you can slap them with a B2 or run and hope they're stupid enough to get hit with a smoke ball lol.

Think of it this way, smoke hits you hard when he does hit you (hard to do at times), but you hit him just as hard once your in with chip, standing resets, and you build mad meter to break in time for my reset anyways. My common method of doing damage only builds meter i do no chip. Chip accounts for like 10%+ damage in a match. Think of armor as "defensive resets" if you have to lmao. Ex Kartwheel >>>>>>> Resets, that's a fact lmao.

Call me a downplayer, the character simply doesn't have defensive options. You will never be top 3 unless you have a small hitbox, armor, advantage pokes, or some ridiculously broken thing like an easy infinite loop lol. These so called "defensive resets" (armor) are often better than traditional damage resets, the only possible exception is Cyrax because he CAN drain your meter to get free resets, and he can throw unblockable bombs, but even then he has weak defensive options lol. Jax? He does little damage mid screen, any other character would do that corner reset damage mid screen over the course of the match.

Resets should have been patched to ensure for proper balancing and to make the game less stupid, simple as that.

TL;DR Good armor > resets, his defense is ass, too many losing match ups, without 100% on point resetting he gets completely bodied in some match ups lol.
 

GGA Wafflez

the kid
XSmokeX, wafflez, ribbZ, and frothy where do you guys stand with Smoke at this time? Is he still tournament viable despite what KL, kabal and Sonya do to him? Still consider him top 10?
xsmokex = smartest smoke player. the thing about smoke... is that he loses to a majority of the top ten characters, which are also the most played characters. it's hard to come by 6-4s even 5-5s when playing in tournament. like smoke said, it would be extremely hard to "win" using him, but doing well is doable. I personally have played smoke since day 1, and will never main another character.

concerning ermac, he has no way of getting you off of him. his pokes are bad, and he has no armor, so there is no consequence really for throwing out d4's or b2's, also he is just as slow. the most you have to fear when pressuring him is canceled normals into lift, but the threat of smoke's punish is pretty great, so it's not too much to worry about. he has no way to get in, and smoke port is useful in this MU. tkp is quicker than sb, but on trade smoke wins clean. tkp on whiff can be punished by teleport or sb too, kinda hard w/ sb but at least a check