Strategy - Shinnok Shinnok matchup thread discussion

[RM_NINfan101]

I figure that it's about time that a thread like this was started. However, I would hold off on matchup numbers for now and all that stuff as there has been many new changes, but I do think discussing matchups for our beloved Fallen Elder God is needed.

To start: The Mileena matchup!

I have played this a ton. Something that always, ALWAYS throws me off is her Teleport which is really huge for her in this MU. You will likely spend more time waiting for her to hang herself than you will be tossing hellsparks. I tried Necromancer and Impostor and I just... There is just something about some of her hitboxes. It doesn't help all of his strings start high, with the exception of Bone Shaper who... May have an easier time? She low profiles a lot of shit and can go right into ball for a punish. Definitely a matchup to brush up on. Armored EX Ball is just a really solid wakeup for her, though I noticed it trades occasionally with EX Shoulder.

Be careful of her tick grabs in Ravenous and her buffs especially to Piercing have really started to make her shine. So far, no other character besides one gives me as much trouble. She definitely hands me my ass and playing against guys like Mr. Mileena have driven me nuts. Necromancer is not a variation I would play here.

Best variation: ??? I will say Impostor but am not counting Bone Shaper out.

Worst variation: Necromancer, she just gets by almost everything he does except Summoned Fiend.

Jax:

You pretty much play this knowing the following: He's gonna get in and you are gonna have to guess with his pressure strings. Once you successfully poke out, go into hit advantage and play with NB Spark mixups off the first hellspark by going for F4/B3/Throw to confuse them. Shinnok and Jax is honestly a matchup of: Who guesses wrong or who played better footsies? I haven't fought against too many heavy weapons Jax players, but the the rest of his variations are pretty straightforward. Watch out for grabs in Wrestler and Pumped Up's crazy ground pound and air ground pound game.

Best variation: ???
Worst variation: ???

 

[SixPathsOfHate]

I figure that it's about time that a thread like this was started. However, I would hold off on matchup numbers for now and all that stuff as there has been many new changes, but I do think discussing matchups for our beloved Fallen Elder God is needed.

To start: The Mileena matchup!

I have played this a ton. Something that always, ALWAYS throws me off is her Teleport which is really huge for her in this MU. You will likely spend more time waiting for her to hang herself than you will be tossing hellsparks. I tried Necromancer and Impostor and I just... There is just something about some of her hitboxes. It doesn't help all of his strings start high, with the exception of Bone Shaper who... May have an easier time? She low profiles a lot of shit and can go right into ball for a punish. Definitely a matchup to brush up on. Armored EX Ball is just a really solid wakeup for her, though I noticed it trades occasionally with EX Shoulder.

Be careful of her tick grabs in Ravenous and her buffs especially to Piercing have really started to make her shine. So far, no other character besides one gives me as much trouble. She definitely hands me my ass and playing against guys like Mr. Mileena have driven me nuts. Necromancer is not a variation I would play here.

Best variation: ??? I will say Impostor but am not counting Bone Shaper out.

Worst variation: Necromancer, she just gets by almost everything he does except Summoned Fiend.

Jax:

You pretty much play this knowing the following: He's gonna get in and you are gonna have to guess with his pressure strings. Once you successfully poke out, go into hit advantage and play with NB Spark mixups off the first hellspark by going for F4/B3/Throw to confuse them. Shinnok and Jax is honestly a matchup of: Who guesses wrong or who played better footsies? I haven't fought against too many heavy weapons Jax players, but the the rest of his variations are pretty straightforward. Watch out for grabs in Wrestler and Pumped Up's crazy ground pound and air ground pound game.

Best variation: ???
Worst variation: ???

Ive had a better time fighting Jax with Necromancer over Imposter, just cause at full screen if I get my bf2 off first then he cant trade because of his slow start up and its almost a assured run in or dash punch at which I just shoulder rush or hell sparks and continue the zone.

 

[usedcarsalesmang]

Right now, I'd say that vs characters with no teleport Necromancer is the best choice.
Imposter vs the others.

I don't really know much about the new BoneShaper yet

 

[RM_NINfan101]

Right now, I'd say that vs characters with no teleport Necromancer is the best choice.
Imposter vs the others.

I don't really know much about the new BoneShaper yet

Yeah this is something I should probably add. Necromancer struggles against characters like Ermac and Scorp.

 

[RM_NINfan101]

Also figure I'd tag guys like @xInfra Deadx and @Youphemism @RM Jonnitti @Wemfs and @xSMoKEx since we should finally get this on the ground and structured.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

I play impostor only right. There are no matchups I feel uncomfortable with to the point where i feel like another variation would help me more. then again i think i might be "up playing" impostor because i think i got to the point where i can boil it down to dumb simple and dont really need to think much.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

so for ferra/torr, ive played against biohazard and foreverking jr. impostor definitely demolishes his shit. idk if its just f/t really doesn't have any answers or the players weren't confident in their options, but i was able to teleport pretty freely as long as i did it close enough to the ground. also they can't punish mimicry from a distance and don't have a way of punishing sparks reliably when all 3 hits connect. also when you land a mimic you get a free 15% command grab. fuck all these tick grab setups when you can just get 15% for doing absolutely nothing but landing a mimic. after doing that a few times you can try to mix them up for extra damage once you've convinced them every time you land a mimic they just gotta hold that shit but its not really needed. its very hard for f/t to catch impostor.

 

[RM_NINfan101]

I play impostor only right. There are no matchups I feel uncomfortable with to the point where i feel like another variation would help me more. then again i think i might be "up playing" impostor because i think i got to the point where i can boil it down to dumb simple and dont really need to think much.

Got a question:

What the fuck do you do with Impostor against Takeda? Can you actually move his special wheel kick like he can? I seem to just get a mimic and then I'm like "Shit, what do I do now with this?"

 

[RM Jonnitti]

Got a question:

What the fuck do you do with Impostor against Takeda? Can you actually move his special wheel kick like he can? I seem to just get a mimic and then I'm like "Shit, what do I do now with this?"

go for a 50/50 and end the combo with flip kick and just play neutral afterwards. after the low you can go back into mimic. f4 xx spark mb 1st hit close wheel kick f2 xx mimicry. but generally you do want to get rid of it right away. you can even use it in combos where it will drop just to get rid of it but you have a knockdown close and you do the far version so you dont get hit. i got a few other ideas like end combo with sparks and then do close wheel kick to get rid of it, maybe you will be okay

 

[Helter Skelter]

Against Mileena Hell Sparks trade with TeleKick but she gets knocked down so you can apply pressure to her.
If you use Hell Blast, her TeleKIck will get beaten.

 

[SixPathsOfHate]

Got a question:

What the fuck do you do with Impostor against Takeda? Can you actually move his special wheel kick like he can? I seem to just get a mimic and then I'm like "Shit, what do I do now with this?"

F2 into wheel kick
f4 db2 mb 1st orb wheel kick f2 bf1 (a little inconsisent from what I have seen)
b3 db2 mb 1st orb wheel kick bf1 (still a bit of consistency issues)

 

[SixPathsOfHate]

so for ferra/torr, ive played against biohazard and foreverking jr. impostor definitely demolishes his shit. idk if its just f/t really doesn't have any answers or the players weren't confident in their options, but i was able to teleport pretty freely as long as i did it close enough to the ground. also they can't punish mimicry from a distance and don't have a way of punishing sparks reliably when all 3 hits connect. also when you land a mimic you get a free 15% command grab. fuck all these tick grab setups when you can just get 15% for doing absolutely nothing but landing a mimic. after doing that a few times you can try to mix them up for extra damage once you've convinced them every time you land a mimic they just gotta hold that shit but its not really needed. its very hard for f/t to catch impostor.

How do you fight f/t, I can't punish anything they do!!

 

[RM_NINfan101]

Tanya looks to be a hell of a threat to Shinnok...

@Helter Skelter mentioned EX Hell Sparks reaching higher. Maybe this is a solution to some characters? Including that woman I mentioned above?

 

[RM Jonnitti]

How do you fight f/t, I can't punish anything they do!!

you just keep pushing him back when he gets too close with sparks and run away until he hangs himself. you can also keep him out with mimic because he can't punish it from a distance. also has a hard time dealing with teleports. if he gets to close do d4 xx sparks to push him back

 

[RM Jonnitti]

Tanya looks to be a hell of a threat to Shinnok...

i disagree ive played a few tanyas, mostly cdjrs and have a decent amount of experience against that pole bullshit and i dont think its all too bad. remember that after her regular teleport, she has a little bit of recovery before she can push a button, so you can totally air to air it with jump punch and convert into a mimic. you also get some pretty nice damage into vortex against tanya. after blocking a pogo you can do njp to hit her if she doesnt do another one frame perfect or do the mid flagpole thingy she has. if you njp the low will whiff, but i think njk will stay active long enough to clip her (need to test). if you think shes going to do the flagpole thingy you can armor through with ex shoulder but even if she hits you out of njp, worst case scenario you're full screen and thats only bad if she has a lifelead. as far as tonfas go, her pressure in that stance is just straight up annoying and i need to learn more about it. jrosa plays it so when im back from my family vacation in italy i plan on sessioning with him to learn that.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

right now the only character that i feel is a losing matchup with the experience that i have is jax and raiden. still a lot of matchup i haven't had a chance to break down but shinnok's saving grace against pressure characters is his 6 frame d1 and the fact that he get mimicry vortex vs nearly all of them. however against jax and raiden i feel like when you push them out with sparks even if you have meter hes easily right back in there. he also has a way of reliably punishing most of the things you do, and they have fast enough normals where the 6 frame d1 isnt really that big of a deal. yeah sure raiden f1 is a high right now but i dont think that really matters all that much when hes got all that mobility and ways of murdering you if you make the slightest mistake. same goes for jax. those matchups are just "dont get hit and play solid defense" and shinnok is certainly a character that allows you to do that, but it doesn't come easy.

so far there are no other characters that i really feel give you a huge disadvantage.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

so i just watched back wound vs honeybee at CEO, catching up after digesting after a meal here, but i noticed wound end his combos midscreen with mimicry and then whiff the stinger. even though the commentators were pretty impressed by it, i personally wouldn't recommend doing that because you give up almost all of your advantage by the time the move is done and you get close enough to go for a mixup to the point where d'vorah can definitely backdash out of it. you can see d'vorah go into the block animation before the mixup which means he doesnt have much frame advantage anymore. even though i think it sucks holding onto the move, its just too long of a move to get rid of like that. i recommend just ending your next combo with stinger instead.

 

[Braindead]

so i just watched back wound vs honeybee at CEO, catching up after digesting after a meal here, but i noticed wound end his combos midscreen with mimicry and then whiff the stinger. even though the commentators were pretty impressed by it, i personally wouldn't recommend doing that because you give up almost all of your advantage by the time the move is done and you get close enough to go for a mixup to the point where d'vorah can definitely backdash out of it. you can see d'vorah go into the block animation before the mixup which means he doesnt have much frame advantage anymore. even though i think it sucks holding onto the move, its just too long of a move to get rid of like that. i recommend just ending your next combo with stinger instead.

I agree. The duration of that move almost as much as the hit advantage off the mimicry. You're wasting damage and wasting +frames when you just whiff if like that.

 

[usedcarsalesmang]

The only reason you should whiff stolen special after mimicry is if you're going for a 50/50 afterwards.
Spending the meter on that much damage isn't worth it imo.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

The only reason you should whiff stolen special after mimicry is if you're going for a 50/50 afterwards.
Spending the meter on that much damage isn't worth it imo.

the only character i really do that against is erron black since its fast enough that you aren't giving up many plus frames and you don't need to modify your combo so it can whiff. sonya has shitty enough wakeups that im not scared of her after a knockdown so i just use the leg grab which gives you a ton of damage. kung jin i like his flip kick because you can do mad chip strings and end it safely, also catches some people off guard because its an overhead. the other moves that don't give you vortex is kinda hard to whiff, you can do it with kenshi's rising karma but you can still get something off of that, at least the low.

in other words i think its better to extend your combos instead of giving up frame advantage because you are giving up what truly makes impostor scary

 

[usedcarsalesmang]

the only character i really do that against is erron black since its fast enough that you aren't giving up many plus frames and you don't need to modify your combo so it can whiff. sonya has shitty enough wakeups that im not scared of her after a knockdown so i just use the leg grab which gives you a ton of damage. kung jin i like his flip kick because you can do mad chip strings and end it safely, also catches some people off guard because its an overhead. the other moves that don't give you vortex is kinda hard to whiff, you can do it with kenshi's rising karma but you can still get something off of that, at least the low.

in other words i think its better to extend your combos instead of giving up frame advantage because you are giving up what truly makes impostor scary

most of the specials are worth keeping except takeda's. that special move steal needs to be changed. stealing it makes the matchup worse

 

[RM Jonnitti]

most of the specials are worth keeping except takeda's. that special move steal needs to be changed. stealing it makes the matchup worse

You can still get vortex off the low. F4 xx sparks mb 1st hit close wheel kick f2 xx mimicry

 

[Drecker]

I've started playing Bone Shaper in matchups I can't get a continuous vortex going, unless the teleport is super important or if my opponent respects it too much. IATP > nj4 is the truth, especially with stolen moves into chip strings.

 

[SplitMushroom]

I play imposter and iunno man. I really don't have problems with anyone. Jacqui maybe but that's only because I'm not used to comboing with the gauntlet strike

 

[SplitMushroom]

also against Tanya, f4 into a stolen drill is GOD