Question Shazam Buffs?

[Shawi]

It is very annoying how people label his mix up as 50:50, because it isn't. Whenever you use either grab, the opponent has an alternative 'get out'.

1. Off the 22 string, the opponent can simply backdash, therefore you need to consider using AT after the 22.
Block Low
Block High
Backdash
33:33:33 - a three way mixup

2. Off of a knockdown, the opponent can wakeup. From here, it is Shazam at a disadvantage, rather than a 'fair' 50:50. If you guess the opponent isn't going to wakeup, then you again need to guess correct which stance they will block in. Guess correct with the wakeup, and wrong with the stance and you get blown up.
Block Low
Block High
Wake-up
33:33:33 - another 3 way mixup.

Okay, if they opponent is being quite defensive, then from a naked grab, yes it is 50:50, but that is exactly the same for a non grab character. E.g. Aquaman can use b2 or bd1. It is the same mixup. Right now I feel like he is a weaker version of scorpion from MK. He can put you in a 'semi-vortex' except with a 33:33:33 rather than scorpion's 50:50.

Edit: Oh and Shazam till I die!

 

[Throwback]

well since AT is an overhead that also catches backdash, I could argue it's a 66:33 mixup in Shazam's favour

I assume you know that the on the very first frame of wakeup, characters are forced to stand? This means that a correctly timed HM will always hit, unless they do an invincible wakeup attack. So it's a true 50/50 - will you meaty HM or not?

It actually ends up slightly in shazam's favour because if you predict a wakeup that doesn't happen, you still have the advantage.

 

[Prinz]

So testers, Tom Brady 16 Bit , why is Shazam's trait not unblockable? Was it too unbalanced?

 

[Johnny2d]

So testers, Tom Brady 16 Bit , why is Shazam's trait not unblockable? Was it too unbalanced?

Unblockable? That's insane. That would be too much. The chip you get with trait active is still really good.

 

[Johnny2d]

This buffs Shazam. If he can punish throw breaks with full combo, it gives so much motivation to throw, they have to take it every time or they take a lot more damage. This elevates Shazam's grappler status up several notches.

***Edit, I'm not sure if this works when the opponent techs a Shazam grab. If it does, then it will be really good.

*****Edit again, this is only after Shazam is the one that techs the other person's throw. Still helps a little. If you tech a throw, you get a combo.

 

[RoGE]

his trait being unblockable would be too good, I just want it to come out a little faster.

 

[Johnny2d]

I posted this in the bnb thread since talk of buffs and nerfs seem to be everywhere, and thought I would share here too just to add food for thought.

I entered for the bnbs, and saw some good bnbs, but also a lot of discussion on nerfs and buffs. I don't disagree with any of the points made but can offer a thought or two coming from a person that put a lot of time into Jade in MK9. The kinds of changes you guys are talking about aren't going to happen. This is the design they intended for him to have and if that makes him low tier, the developers probably already knew that, although they have their reasons and have insight to what this character can do that we have yet to discover or show off at tournaments. The best thing for us all to do (if people are committed to the character) is to work with the design at hand and be aggressive about getting smarter, and learning ways to win with what we have. Just because he doesn't have all the tools that some other characters have doesn't mean he is a bad design, just different, and his style might not get him a juicy spot on tier lists.

Thats not to say that letting your feelings out doesn't help. Even Jade got a little buff with low boomerang in early MK9 (it sometimes didn't come back). Small things might happen, just don't expect to see anything that elvevates him into a higher tier. You can ask for changes, but at the same time be proud of your wins that you get with a character that doesn't have all the tools that some others have.

Cheers guys. I love the way this character plays and will main Shazam till the end!!!

 

[Shawi]

I say we keep working with the character because despite his flaws, he has some really good aspects.
His cross ups are insane. He says SHAZAM mid combo. He..........is just awesome!

 

[Prinz]

Johnny2d as much as I can agree with you, you have to agree that if Jade had faster boomerangs, glow with normal damage, flash go through Kenshi shit and enough advantage off of b1, 34 and 4 to cancel into special without interruption she'd be at least A tier, but that's saying at least. And all those changes were possible, except Kenshi shit, which are physical attacks in the game's code and probably can't be changed, but a patch can do miracles, who knows.
And to stay on topic, wouldn't it be awesome if Shazam's trait was unblockable? He does get 100% damage buff right now, which is beast too.

EDIT: Hell, even cancelable boomerangs would be cool for Jade.

 

[learis1]

he needs the option to turn into Billy to troll opponent when winning.

 

[Prinz]

he needs the option to turn into Billy to troll opponent when winning.

Instead of stance change button he'd have Turn-to-Billy button lol. More use than stance change.

 

[Johnny2d]

Johnny2d as much as I can agree with you, you have to agree that if Jade had faster boomerangs, glow with normal damage, flash go through Kenshi shit and enough advantage off of b1, 34 and 4 to cancel into special without interruption she'd be at least A tier, but that's saying at least. And all those changes were possible, except Kenshi shit, which are physical attacks in the game's code and probably can't be changed, but a patch can do miracles, who knows.
And to stay on topic, wouldn't it be awesome if Shazam's trait was unblockable? He does get 100% damage buff right now, which is beast too.

Right, but that was never their intention with Jade... they have a way that they want things and they stick to it. They could have easily made those changes to Jade but didn't, that should tell you a lot about what they intend to do here. I'm not trying to argue toward one side or the other, just looking at the truth of the situation. Not saying they hate Jade and Jade players, but they have to have a plan and an outline of how things are going to be, and they tend to stick with it without major changes.

So, ask nicely. Share ideas. It would be awesome if he gets something in a patch. I'm not holding my breath, and I still love the character.

 

[pogse]

Instead of stance change button he'd have Turn-to-Billy button lol. More use than stance change.

I'll take it.

 

[Johnny2d]

Instead of stance change button he'd have Turn-to-Billy button lol. More use than stance change.

I would love this. My favorite thing to have happen right now is to win the first round with f22, then have him turn into billy and yell shazam twice, then when the next match starts to hit with f22 right away. 4 Shazam shouts in a row. Imagine how low Billy's hitbox would be, he would be really hard to hit, however one Superman punch would send him into orbit. It would be worth the trade though.

 

[Prinz]

Johnny2d no hate bro, just thoughts. If Kenshi's stuff had projectile properties, who knows what would happen with other projectile parry moves (like Nightwolf's for example, Smoke would 10-0 Kenshi though lol).
Right now I have no idea about Shazam, so I'm not asking for buffs or nerfs. Just his trait, was awesome if it made his punch attacks unblockable. Really unique.

 

[Error]

You know what Shazam needs to be a top tier character? Someone to put the time into him to know matchups cold, make good reads, recognize potential options, and show up to a tournament and utilize all of these things better than other people doing the same with other characters.

Although it's early in the game and those are some good tips, I remember people saying the same thing about characters such as Kano and Jade in MK9, and look how well things turned out for them.

 

[Error]

How about if his trait made certain things more + on block?
Prinz Johnny2d

 

[THTB]

Pressure isn't that great in this game either in comparison to MK. Don't get knocked down a bunch. You know who had bad wakeups in MK9? Cyrax.

NUMBER ONE, Cyrax's wakeup air throw gave him a retarded solid escape option, and EX ragdoll had 20 frames of invincibility on wakeup and was 9f and safe. Number one...

NUMBER TWO, offense in Injustice is FUCKED up. Pushblock ain't saving you if you can't block worth a shit or if you aren't stocked, you have to deal with people using + frame on block launchers with armor to blow through your defensive pokes, throws with actual range, actual + frames on block for various normals, ambiguous crossups, unblockable moves and true command throws, etc. Not to mention, there's a lot of shit to favor zoning playstyles EXCEPT zoning options in this game are HORRENDOUS on the frame data end of things for most characters, on top of having various holes and everyone having absurd dashes. This game has a lot to cover you defensively, but that's because the offensive aspect of the game would be stupid if some of these options didn't exist.

 

[Prinz]

How about if his trait made certain things more + on block?
Prinz Johnny2d

I think his trait giving him 2x damage buff is very good, but not that unique. Unblockable punches? Hellyeah!

 

[G4S MinotaurLord]

NUMBER ONE, Cyrax's wakeup air throw gave him a retarded solid escape option, and EX ragdoll had 20 frames of invincibility on wakeup and was 9f and safe. Number one...

NUMBER TWO, offense in Injustice is FUCKED up. Pushblock ain't saving you if you can't block worth a shit or if you aren't stocked, you have to deal with people using + frame on block launchers with armor to blow through your defensive pokes, throws with actual range, actual + frames on block for various normals, ambiguous crossups, unblockable moves and true command throws, etc. Not to mention, there's a lot of shit to favor zoning playstyles EXCEPT zoning options in this game are HORRENDOUS on the frame data end of things for most characters, on top of having various holes and everyone having absurd dashes. This game has a lot to cover you defensively, but that's because the offensive aspect of the game would be stupid if some of these options didn't exist.

Cyrax's air throw was ok, I played mainly with a dude who mained Cyrax and Lao, so maybe I just got used to knowing how to respond to it appropriately.

Offense in Injustice is still developing, and it's been a week since my intial comment. Right now there are obviously abuseable things like Supes223breath, the ranged frame trap (which still has yet to be used competitively), and whatnot. I never said that it was bad, just that I felt it wasn't as intense as MK's. It's a subjective statement. I haven't felt like I've been under lao or kabal pressure in this game, and I play low tiers.

I noticed that your post was nitpicking a one line statement I made in a post with the greater intent of A. making the claim that tiers largely come from tournament performances of professional players over a larger period than we've had available 2 weeks in and B. that there are defensive fundamentals in this game to help. I think that the FGC community in general, lord knows our end not excluded, often jumps to buffing/nerfing discussions before an adequate attempt is made to learn the game, the fundamentals, and the character. I didn't think throwing in the towel after 2 weeks was an appropriate mindset for the character's community (look at what the fuck it did to MK). Which part of any of this do you disagree with?

 

[Tom Brady]

a single AA option. that will make him break bottom 5

Shazam is very good. Why don't you actually get his resets down before you cry...

 

[MashPotatoTower]

Shazam is very good. Why don't you actually get his resets down before you cry...

im working on it

 

[Tom Brady]

It is very annoying how people label his mix up as 50:50, because it isn't. Whenever you use either grab, the opponent has an alternative 'get out'.

1. Off the 22 string, the opponent can simply backdash, therefore you need to consider using AT after the 22.
Block Low
Block High
Backdash
33:33:33 - a three way mixup

2. Off of a knockdown, the opponent can wakeup. From here, it is Shazam at a disadvantage, rather than a 'fair' 50:50. If you guess the opponent isn't going to wakeup, then you again need to guess correct which stance they will block in. Guess correct with the wakeup, and wrong with the stance and you get blown up.
Block Low
Block High
Wake-up
33:33:33 - another 3 way mixup.

Okay, if they opponent is being quite defensive, then from a naked grab, yes it is 50:50, but that is exactly the same for a non grab character. E.g. Aquaman can use b2 or bd1. It is the same mixup. Right now I feel like he is a weaker version of scorpion from MK. He can put you in a 'semi-vortex' except with a 33:33:33 rather than scorpion's 50:50.

Edit: Oh and Shazam till I die!

Incorrect...

22..

22~command throw = beats high block
22~MB torpedo = beats low block and back dash

22~MB command throw juggles and sets up reset
22~MB torpedo guarantees reset as well unless they wake up attack

the mix up on the reset is a mix up.. dont wake up attack = dead with command grab. if the do wake up attack, you bait it and punish it with a full combo punish.

I have a vid uploading now

 

[Shawi]

Incorrect...

22..

22~command throw = beats high block
22~MB torpedo = beats low block and back dash

22~MB command throw juggles and sets up reset
22~MB torpedo guarantees reset as well unless they wake up attack

the mix up on the reset is a mix up.. dont wake up attack = dead with command grab. if the do wake up attack, you bait it and punish it with a full combo punish.

I have a vid uploading now

Yeah, I forgot the AT was overhead, as was pointed out in a post after mine. Although, all of this requires meter, which is not in indefinite supply.

 

[Cage Redfield]

The only buffs I'd like to see for Shazam are:

Give invincibility to projectiles at an earlier part of Advancing/Eluding Mercury

Speed up Down 2 by a smidge

A teleport that goes through projectiles a bit easier and a Down 2 that's actually reliable for an anti-air will help him out immensely. He'd still remain the low damage 50/50 character he is (down 2 scales combos to hell), and having an actual anti-air would be better than having to rely on air-to-air for your only option against jumps. Teleport buff would just make life a bit easier among the likes of Deathstroke and Black Adam lol.