Discussion Patches overwhelmingly help NRS games not hurt them

[Sultani]

Do ppl realize that when testers get one thing changed, other things pop up? Lmao there will always be glitches and bugs no matter how much u patch, that should be obvious.

Its really too bad that people just accept this.

Anyway, i have a question... its likely that i missed it amidst the shit storm to posts since release, but there seems to be alot of references to nerfs, people calling people cry babies, whatever.

Has anyone actually complained to the point of demanding nerfs? I'd like to see an example of this.... because im not even kidding. I haven't seen that happen even a single time. If anything, people are asking for buffs.

There's complaining about kung jin, but did anyone really outright say he should be nerfed? I've steered clear of the kj forum.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

Its really too bad that people just accept this.

Anyway, i have a question... its likely that i missed it amidst the shit storm to posts since release, but there seems to be alot of references to nerfs, people calling people cry babies, whatever.

Has anyone actually complained to the point of demanding nerfs? I'd like to see an example of this.... because im not even kidding. I haven't seen that happen even a single time. If anything, people are asking for buffs.

There's complaining about kung jin, but did anyone really outright say he should be nerfed? I've steered clear of the kj forum.

Did u not see the subzero thread m2dave made? Lol. How about the salty scorpion and erron black crying after ESL? What about the Cassie cage complaints? Man if I really had the time I would compile this stuff. Someone made a thread on the salty character of the week because of how much crying has been going on. But just look at m2daves thread and u will be set. Believe it is called "grandmaster subzero should not be normalized"

 

[coolwhip]

Hasn't the last two games lost competitors due to patching?

Not nearly as many competitors as they would have lost had they been left intact.

 

[Sultani]

Did u not see the subzero thread m2dave made? Lol. How about the salty scorpion and erron black crying after ESL? What about the Cassie cage complaints? Man if I really had the time I would compile this stuff. Someone made a thread on the salty character of the week because of how much crying has been going on. But just look at m2daves thread and u will be set. Believe it is called "grandmaster subzero should not be normalized"

Oh right.. there was definitely that. No need to compile anything. I was more honestly just looking for confirmation that it was actually happening. And when i think about it, there was the uneducated raging over cassie's "unwinnable setup."

So yeah. Its definitely happening.

 

[Scoot Magee]

Ultra has had 3-4 patches already since Arcade release.

It just goes to show that you patch things as they need them, not according to a formula.

Yeah I mentioned that the patches started rolling out after ae, ae2012 and ultra. Ultra has been patched a lot.

 

[Zoidberg747]

You have got to love the "pro patch" propaganda in the first post. While Injustice's balance changes were well-managed, with some exception. when the term "bad patching" comes to mind, most people in the NRS community think about Mortal Kombat 9 for the following obvious reasons.

Cyrax - in an attempt to address highly damaging reset combos, the result is extremely damaging reset combos and a safe buzz saw.

Ermac - telekinetic push recovery inexplicably increased by several frames due to the very early community perception that Ermac is an easy character to use and win with (i.e., "Easymac"). Ermac was ultimately never better than a mid tier character at any point in the game.

Kano - upball receives a major buff. Upball buffs are reverted two weeks later. Knife toss recovery is inexplicably increased by a couple frames. Freddy is released as a DLC a month later with better zoning than Kano ever had.

Noob - irrelevant buffs that lead ultimately to nothing. The character was too unsafe when the game was released. The character was too unsafe when the game died. Early in the game's life span, the Johnny Cage community tried to convince everybody how "broken" Noob's zoning was.

Sheeva - never received any significant buffs or changes despite everyone and their mothers knowing how horrendously bad the character was.

Skarlet - total frame data annihilation of dagger cancels as Kabal spams instant aerial gas blasts 250 MPH.

Smoke - in an attempt to address smoke bomb OTG, the result is extremely damaging reset combos. Smoke community fools and morons demand a "low that launches" to complement their overhead. Thankfully, NRS never listened.

Sub Zero - reset combos are removed. Cyrax and Smoke keep their reset combos, which ultimately end up twice as damaging as Sub Zero's. In addition, Sub Zero does not have a single mid attack that connects on low hitbox characters.

The lesson of the story is, patching is neutral. Patching can save the game, but it can also ruin it. Take your time and think about everything very carefully before you start buffing and normalizing.

Dont forget nerfing Baraka even though his corner "infinite" required meter to do.

They need to make Baraka DLC and S tier to make up for it

 

[juicepouch]

Ultra has had 3-4 patches already since Arcade release.

It just goes to show that you patch things as they need them, not according to a formula.

#buffZangief2015

 

[DarthArma]

(actually reading OP)

 

[Ninj]

That's why they hired tournament players to test the game, in depth training mode, reversal system, delayed wake ups, so on and so forth. Because casuals do all that stuff.

Show me a relevant, 100% balanced fighter where there are no tiers and every single character goes even with every other single character.

It certainly wasn't SF4 which has been patched, re-balanced, and re-released countless times. Or BlazBlue, where Kokanoe was so broken that the community banned her from tournaments.

You will never have 100% perfect balance in a fighting game. Calling NRS casual when you see how much effort was put into the meta game of MK X is ridiculous.

Try out Killer Instinct. Watch their development model, how they handle patches and balance, and lack of pseudo-block-infinites (Liu Kang) and corner infinites (Kitana/Mournful). From what I've seen, Iron Galaxy has taken over as best fighting game developer in all aspects.

But to be fair, MKX has insanely twisted and gory fatalities.

By the way...I enjoyed playing MKX at my buddy's place. I won't be buying it, but it's not bad.

 

[TotteryManx]

Not nearly as many competitors as they would have lost had they been left intact.

Obviously, but there has to be a way to go about patching to please the majority. Right?

 

[Ninj]

this game is the most balanced NRS title to date and I am very comfortable saying that.

They've set the bar pretty low, though.

Yes in programming there will be glitches that, due to their fixing, bring up other oddities. However, accepting that and saying "It's cool, MKX will always have bugs, that's fine." is sending the message to NRS (most importantly) and the rest of the world that 'Yeah, we're MKX, we don't care if our game isn't polished"

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Obviously, but there has to be a way to go about patching to please the majority. Right?

Not as long as people are allergic to the word "patch" and don't consider what the patch actually does. There were only a couple of major balance patches for IGAU, but with the with people tell it, you'd think there was a major balance update every week.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

These ppl

They've set the bar pretty low, though.

Yes in programming there will be glitches that, due to their fixing, bring up other oddities. However, accepting that and saying "It's cool, MKX will always have bugs, that's fine." is sending the message to NRS (most importantly) and the rest of the world that 'Yeah, we're MKX, we don't care if our game isn't polished"

other fighting games are no different haha, that is why i see patch updates and what not for all games that are getting backed by patches atm. If u think that some changes would keep out the bugs and what not, u are wrong tbh.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Not as long as people are allergic to the word "patch" and don't consider what the patch actually does. There were only a couple of major balance patches for IGAU, but with the with people tell it, you'd think there was a major balance update every week.

As has been said many times, the issue is not the # of patches but the fact that they stop after month 6. You cant possibly get everything in 6 months.

 

[Rude]

Try out Killer Instinct. Watch their development model, how they handle patches and balance, and lack of pseudo-block-infinites (Liu Kang) and corner infinites (Kitana/Mournful). From what I've seen, Iron Galaxy has taken over as best fighting game developer in all aspects.

But to be fair, MKX has insanely twisted and gory fatalities.

By the way...I enjoyed playing MKX at my buddy's place. I won't be buying it, but it's not bad.

So why are you even here?

You clearly and vocally dislike NRS.

You don't own the game and have no interest in playing it.

So...why?

Also...i don't like KI. At all. The idea of releasing a what...six character game and asking you to buy every additional character piecemeal is nutty to me.

I'm not sure i even know what you're arguing anymore. Do you really think NRS will leave infinites in?

I am completely vexed as to what the point even is. MK X is perfectly fine as a competitive game. You have footsies, whiff punishing, poking and counter poking, even the ability to punish whiffed pokes.

As bad as some 50/50 characters get...most fighting games have them. Old school Guilty Gear had a SHIT ton of looping vortexes and 50/50s that lead to death. This isn't new to fighting games.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

Not as long as people are allergic to the word "patch" and don't consider what the patch actually does. There were only a couple of major balance patches for IGAU, but with the with people tell it, you'd think there was a major balance update every week.

umm there were a fair amount of changes to injustice and hotfixes as well for some things. It was pretty rapid and after october it stopped then that was it haha. I dnt like the word "patch" when "whining and complaining" come behind it for the most part.

 

[Rude]

Try out Killer Instinct. Watch their development model, how they handle patches and balance, and lack of pseudo-block-infinites (Liu Kang) and corner infinites (Kitana/Mournful). From what I've seen, Iron Galaxy has taken over as best fighting game developer in all aspects.

But to be fair, MKX has insanely twisted and gory fatalities.

By the way...I enjoyed playing MKX at my buddy's place. I won't be buying it, but it's not bad.

I did a brief Google search. I found two KI Infinites reported as early as last month. One is an infinite ultra glitch with Hisako, one is an infinite combo by Omen that works specifically on Aganos.

So there's that, i guess.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

But like i said, i dnt mind changes, just how they are handled is my concern. But MKX is going to get patched no matter what of course, we will see how that turns out

 

[Rude]

But like i said, i dnt mind changes, just how they are handled is my concern. But MKX is going to get patched no matter what of course, we will see how that turns out

Do you really think NRS listens to every single poster here when doing patches? I don't. I remember reading that the Deathstroke gun nerfs were planned before people started complaining about them en masse.

I think MK X is relatively balanced, sure. I also think that we aren't even close to punishing everything or blowing every strat up.

But it doesn't take years to see that, as an example, a character like Kitana or Mileena need help.

 

[ToxicSloth]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it but it seems to me that NRS is sort of in a tough spot when it comes to patching (or any fighting game developer for that matter). Patch too early and risk making issues worse, patch too late and some people may get frustrated and move on.

I think both camps who either don't want changes too soon, or those who would be fine with changing things as they come up have valid arguments. Where is the happy medium? Would there be one that both sides could get behind?

 

[haketh]

Yeah I mentioned that the patches started rolling out after ae, ae2012 and ultra. Ultra has been patched a lot.

And all the patching was negativly recieved by the fanbase in japan that had to deal with it. Especially with each game costing 200 yen

 

[////Antaeus////]

When the game is in constant flux it conveys these two messages (to me personally)

1. This is not a finished product but a work in progress that be are testing for a $90 fee (yes I bought the premium edition)

2. Do not spend time in the lab because everything is subject to change

For the record I am a sz player who is afraid of the nerfbat

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

Do you really think NRS listens to every single poster here when doing patches? I don't. I remember reading that the Deathstroke gun nerfs were planned before people started complaining about them en masse.

I think MK X is relatively balanced, sure. I also think that we aren't even close to punishing everything or blowing every strat up.

But it doesn't take years to see that, as an example, a character like Kitana or Mileena need help.

i never said that, but that doesn't mean NRS doesn't see or pay attention to what ppl say. Also u may think kitana and mileena need help, I say it is too early and that a character isn't fleshed out after 2 weeks haha. Some may not seem as powerful or may even not be as powerful, but we seriously need to not jump the gun to quickly and the past tells us that (don't even need to provide examples). But of course people going to respond with "oh u don't know that" and i can respond in the same way to ppl asking for buffs and nerfs. It goes both ways.

 

[Rude]

i never said that, but that doesn't mean NRS doesn't see or pay attention to what ppl say. Also u may think kitana and mileena need help, I say it is too early and that a character isn't fleshed out after 2 weeks haha. Some may not seem as powerful or may even not be as powerful, but we seriously need to not jump the gun to quickly and the past tells us that (don't even need to provide examples). But of course people going to respond with "oh u don't know that" and i can respond in the same way to ppl asking for buffs and nerfs. It goes both ways.

The difference here is that we have Kitana's frame data. We know her fans are duckable. We know that she can't get much off of her overhead. We know how - she is.

She's just an example, of course, but when a character's problems are spelled out in front of you, is it unreasonable to call a spade a spade?

At least back in MK9, we didn't have all of the frame data, so of course we were wrong. But now? We have access to more information than ever before.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

The difference here is that we have Kitana's frame data. We know her fans are duckable. We know that she can't get much off of her overhead. We know how - she is.

She's just an example, of course, but when a character's problems are spelled out in front of you, is it unreasonable to call a spade a spade?

At least back in MK9, we didn't have all of the frame data, so of course we were wrong. But now? We have access to more information than ever before.

all the frames arent even right unfortunately tho (like it says scorpions mid minion is -21 but it is like -6 haha). I think kitanas still could do some more and make sure they use all her variations (haven't seen mournful at all) and i say the same for all the other characters as well. If she is bad (and i say if because i am not jumping the gun this early), well i would have to wonder after, is she bad where there are multiple matchups she does horrible in or is she bad where she has lots of 5 5s and 4 6s and doesn't beat anyone? Because if that is the case, yeah a buff would help her but she would still be able to be used in tourny confidently.