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Match-Up Discussion - Kano Kano's Ruthless Matchup Discussion Thread

LEGI0N47

I like to play bad characters
The more and more I play and learn about this game, the more I realize how badly he got nerfed. Imo from high/upper mid to Lower mid/ possibly low
I don't think that his nerf, er normalizing the games frame data, is the biggest culprit, it didn't help though. I believe it's chars that were given superior design as far as normals and mix ups, frames, properties on canceling, BS OS's, better set ups etc. They are starting to float to the top.

I know my char is mid when I'm watching tourny's and saying to myself " wtf....how will my char deal with that?" back dash...nope, jump...nope, gap...nope, armor...usually not, just block right and/or use OS....lol #salt
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Really? I haven't had any problems with Jax at all, I find him really easy to zone out...GM Sub not so much but still not too hard.

As for "nerfed to lower mid/low" lmao.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Not surprisingly, that is why Summoner Quan Chi is a superior zoning character than Cybernetic Kano. Unbeknonwst to most people, as is Full Auto Jacqui, whom I tested offline against the some of the best YOMI players. Cybernetic Kano is a solid character but definitely not top tier material. The damage output is too low and the lack of a mix up is a tremendous weakness.
I can't really click with Summoner Quan for whatever the reason, but Jacqui has been my #2 since Week 2. She gets me super salty with the every so often random inconsistency thing, but her zoning is top notch. I'm starting to play more MU's with her as time goes on. I'm not sure if that's because she's better for certain MU's or better than Kano but time will tell.

I've looked other places like Cutthroat, which is good, but the playstyle is really different. Sometimes I do feel like Jacqui is actually better overall with her zoning, walk speed, F3 cancels, meterless damage than Cyber. I know you've already said it and I'm starting to see it now. I've tried for the longest to hold onto the belief that Cyber Kano was almost as good as the Top characters but damn, it's only so many games you can play against good representatives of those characters until you see there's a clear gap.

I have to place him somewhere around the middle of the pack at this point. If the game wasn't designed the way it was he could easily be a top 10 character, but the emphasis on offensive play and the toolses some of these characters are equipped with hurts him a lot.
 

ando1184

Noob
Really nice kano man! But you need to hit confirm those lasers more. No offense but you were getting away with murder with them. Once he learns the mu, those will be punished every single time. I learned that the hard way
Thanks man, and yeh I know lazer is punishable and normally do hit confirm them. But I feel out my opponent, and if something gets respected, not punished, or works in anyway, I'll keep doing it lol. Also, I wanna point out that even though lazer is punishable, the window is really weird on when it can be punished, and I think distance matters too. That move is strange in general because I've tested it in training mode and sometimes it was safe depending on distance. I think my biggest weakness is I poke into knife too much, even point blank lol. Thanks for the input bud, If there's anything else I need to work on please let me know :) I'm always open to criticism and wanting to improve.
 
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Dean

On The Grind
Ok.. I have been playing against a pretty good Cassie Cage player lately..

I am here because of frustration, I also do not have the time to read through this entire thread to find what I am looking for, if it is there.

So..

I am looking for help with the Cassie Cage MU, actually any strong mixup characters for that matter.

After playing this guy I have discovered that you have to work extremely hard to be perfect or you will lose, a lot.

These are my conclusions.

Kano F4<Cassie Elbow string
Kano D4<Cassie Elbow String
Kano Neutral game<Cassie Neutral Game
Kano strings<Cassie Strings
Kano Zoning>Cassie Zoning


I've tried Cutthroat and Cyber against this character/player, I have not had much success.

Kano's overhead in Cutthroat is so shitty due to range with characters that have even an average wake up game, you have to be sitting on their nuts every time in order to ensure it doesn't wiff, yet, even then sometimes it still wiffs.

Kano's faster combo string 112 is great when you are in adequate range, more time then not the range is a huge issue and I do not find it a very reliable punish option, especially against Cassie who has very safe combo strings from what I can tell and most of her moves will push her out of range off block in order to make use of the 112 string.

Kano's 212 combo starter string is very readable, very unsafe, and gets beat out by most of Cassie's typical normals.

The neutral game is awful because jp again, has no range, is very inconsistent, and isn't reliable at all unless you have them in the corner. Even that doesn't mean much, it just seems to be a smidge better.

I mean, why does Kano have T-Rex arms? Honestly, they couldn't at least give him a little more range, his kit is already shit, you have to work super hard to win with Kano. I did not have this much problem with this character pre-patch, the nerfs he has been given has pounded him into the ground. IMO

I am ranting, obviously, but I am typing this because I don't want to give up on Kano. I want to be wrong on everything I just typed, so I am hoping that someone will show me the light at the end of the tunnel before I start looking for a new main.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks.
 

MsMiharo

Kuff Bano
Ok.. I have been playing against a pretty good Cassie Cage player lately..

I am here because of frustration, I also do not have the time to read through this entire thread to find what I am looking for, if it is there.

So..

I am looking for help with the Cassie Cage MU, actually any strong mixup characters for that matter.

After playing this guy I have discovered that you have to work extremely hard to be perfect or you will lose, a lot.

These are my conclusions.

Kano F4<Cassie Elbow string
Kano D4<Cassie Elbow String
Kano Neutral game<Cassie Neutral Game
Kano strings<Cassie Strings
Kano Zoning>Cassie Zoning


I've tried Cutthroat and Cyber against this character/player, I have not had much success.

Kano's overhead in Cutthroat is so shitty due to range with characters that have even an average wake up game, you have to be sitting on their nuts every time in order to ensure it doesn't wiff, yet, even then sometimes it still wiffs.

Kano's faster combo string 112 is great when you are in adequate range, more time then not the range is a huge issue and I do not find it a very reliable punish option, especially against Cassie who has very safe combo strings from what I can tell and most of her moves will push her out of range off block in order to make use of the 112 string.

Kano's 212 combo starter string is very readable, very unsafe, and gets beat out by most of Cassie's typical normals.

The neutral game is awful because jp again, has no range, is very inconsistent, and isn't reliable at all unless you have them in the corner. Even that doesn't mean much, it just seems to be a smidge better.

I mean, why does Kano have T-Rex arms? Honestly, they couldn't at least give him a little more range, his kit is already shit, you have to work super hard to win with Kano. I did not have this much problem with this character pre-patch, the nerfs he has been given has pounded him into the ground. IMO

I am ranting, obviously, but I am typing this because I don't want to give up on Kano. I want to be wrong on everything I just typed, so I am hoping that someone will show me the light at the end of the tunnel before I start looking for a new main.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks.
If she abuses the b124 (? Not really sure) string make sure to punish her hard. There's a gap before the last hit. In commando you can parry, cyber laser or ex ball into full combo and in cutthroat you can ex buff and go for a huge punish.

In cyber throw out knives all the time. Bait jumps and punish with b2 or Kano ball. Make sure to learn her strings, most are minus.
 

FlappyDaniel

Snappin' spines all day e'ry day.
I'll definitely agree that his pressure tools were affected more then I originally thought. Not really terrible by any means just noticeably worse.
 
I'm going to sound like i'm crutching, but I really wish that B1 wasn't nerfed. I understand this move crippled some characters but I can't help but feel that his pressure has been affected a lot. I think Kano is now a really honest character (a bit to honest) and that you have to work so hard to win against characters who can take rounds from you based on coin flips. The struggle is real for us Kano mains.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
You need to start playing some players who are actually good. I am 100% sure he's around Lower mid now
Yeah because I'm basing my opinion of the character on playing online randoms...do you actually ever think before you come to conclusions? I mean you're saying he's lower mid now because Cybernetic (which is a zoning variation) doesn't have good rushdown? Do you not see how stupid that sounds? You're not supposed to play him as a pressure/rushdown character, I thought that'd be pretty obvious...
 

Paul the Octopus

Slow Starter
You need to start playing some players who are actually good. I am 100% sure he's around Lower mid now
I thought you were being overly negative but I've come to realize you're right. While there's nothing wrong with his existing tools - in fact, some of them seem kind of amazing in a vacuum. The problem is that you need something dirty to truly be good in this game and the glitched b1 was Kanos only real dirt. The other stuff is solid but too fair relative to the other characters in this game.
 

Dean

On The Grind
Yeah because I'm basing my opinion of the character on playing online randoms...do you actually ever think before you come to conclusions? I mean you're saying he's lower mid now because Cybernetic (which is a zoning variation) doesn't have good rushdown? Do you not see how stupid that sounds? You're not supposed to play him as a pressure/rushdown character, I thought that'd be pretty obvious...
You are not grasping the fact that you can play the best zoning Kano out there, it will not matter in this game.

Any compenent player will find a way in, they will snuff out your zoning and your jump baits.

Once they get in Kano's kit is extremely hard to manage any player using a character with a balanced kit.

Every character should have something that they can use to at least apply some form of legit pressure on your opponents. Otherwise you become a one trick pony that any good player will snuff out and capitalize on.

Its just not plausible to say Kano is a zone character, so zone. That isn't realistic and you won't win a lot of games that way.

If he was to be strictly zone heavy, they should give him safer moves to counter what a lot of these other characters bring to the table.

It is incredible how one sided some of these MU are when comparing it to Kano's overall kit.

You have to work ten times harder to win against so many of these characters, not because a lot of Kano mains are bad but because there are a lot of characters in this game with a much better kit and mixup game.

Cassie Cage is a perfect example, her normals just about take priority over everything that Kano can do in Cutthroat and Cyber. That is just her normals, I'm not even talking about everything else she has at her disposal.

You can argue it till your blue in the fave but Kano has taken a dramatic fall post patch, he just doesn't have the tools that most characters have been blessed with in this game.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Ok.. I have been playing against a pretty good Cassie Cage player lately..

I am here because of frustration, I also do not have the time to read through this entire thread to find what I am looking for, if it is there.

So..

I am looking for help with the Cassie Cage MU, actually any strong mixup characters for that matter.

After playing this guy I have discovered that you have to work extremely hard to be perfect or you will lose, a lot.

These are my conclusions.

Kano F4<Cassie Elbow string
Kano D4<Cassie Elbow String
Kano Neutral game<Cassie Neutral Game
Kano strings<Cassie Strings
Kano Zoning>Cassie Zoning


I've tried Cutthroat and Cyber against this character/player, I have not had much success.

Kano's overhead in Cutthroat is so shitty due to range with characters that have even an average wake up game, you have to be sitting on their nuts every time in order to ensure it doesn't wiff, yet, even then sometimes it still wiffs.

Kano's faster combo string 112 is great when you are in adequate range, more time then not the range is a huge issue and I do not find it a very reliable punish option, especially against Cassie who has very safe combo strings from what I can tell and most of her moves will push her out of range off block in order to make use of the 112 string.

Kano's 212 combo starter string is very readable, very unsafe, and gets beat out by most of Cassie's typical normals.

The neutral game is awful because jp again, has no range, is very inconsistent, and isn't reliable at all unless you have them in the corner. Even that doesn't mean much, it just seems to be a smidge better.

I mean, why does Kano have T-Rex arms? Honestly, they couldn't at least give him a little more range, his kit is already shit, you have to work super hard to win with Kano. I did not have this much problem with this character pre-patch, the nerfs he has been given has pounded him into the ground. IMO

I am ranting, obviously, but I am typing this because I don't want to give up on Kano. I want to be wrong on everything I just typed, so I am hoping that someone will show me the light at the end of the tunnel before I start looking for a new main.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks.
I have a ton of vs Cassie exp but the match is played entirely different depending on variation. Which one? You're doomed against Spec Ops though. My 2nd most hated MU behind Hellfire Scorpion.
 
You are not grasping the fact that you can play the best zoning Kano out there, it will not matter in this game.

Any compenent player will find a way in, they will snuff out your zoning and your jump baits.

Once they get in Kano's kit is extremely hard to manage any player using a character with a balanced kit.

Every character should have something that they can use to at least apply some form of legit pressure on your opponents. Otherwise you become a one trick pony that any good player will snuff out and capitalize on.

Its just not plausible to say Kano is a zone character, so zone. That isn't realistic and you won't win a lot of games that way.

If he was to be strictly zone heavy, they should give him safer moves to counter what a lot of these other characters bring to the table.

It is incredible how one sided some of these MU are when comparing it to Kano's overall kit.

You have to work ten times harder to win against so many of these characters, not because a lot of Kano mains are bad but because there are a lot of characters in this game with a much better kit and mixup game.

Cassie Cage is a perfect example, her normals just about take priority over everything that Kano can do in Cutthroat and Cyber. That is just her normals, I'm not even talking about everything else she has at her disposal.

You can argue it till your blue in the fave but Kano has taken a dramatic fall post patch, he just doesn't have the tools that most characters have been blessed with in this game.
Commando I feel snuffs out her stuff in Spec Ops and Brawler variations. It's really about saving that meter and knowing when to pressure, otherwise you'll just be wasted of a bar or two bars of health in return.
 

NHDR

Noob
@Dean Totally agree, man. I think good pokes are a necessity in this game, having strong zoning is not enough. Cyber Kano is a pretty solid character but its definitely harder to win with him. Honest, fundamental gameplay will always face an uphill battle in this game. Unless you have a rare matchup of two strictly zoning characters.

I've watched lots of matches up until now, the majority of the game takes place within footsie range. Therefore, its more valuable to have good pokes or rushdown than it is good zoning. More bang for your buck.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
You are not grasping the fact that you can play the best zoning Kano out there, it will not matter in this game.

Any compenent player will find a way in, they will snuff out your zoning and your jump baits.

Once they get in Kano's kit is extremely hard to manage any player using a character with a balanced kit.

Every character should have something that they can use to at least apply some form of legit pressure on your opponents. Otherwise you become a one trick pony that any good player will snuff out and capitalize on.

Its just not plausible to say Kano is a zone character, so zone. That isn't realistic and you won't win a lot of games that way.

If he was to be strictly zone heavy, they should give him safer moves to counter what a lot of these other characters bring to the table.

It is incredible how one sided some of these MU are when comparing it to Kano's overall kit.

You have to work ten times harder to win against so many of these characters, not because a lot of Kano mains are bad but because there are a lot of characters in this game with a much better kit and mixup game.

Cassie Cage is a perfect example, her normals just about take priority over everything that Kano can do in Cutthroat and Cyber. That is just her normals, I'm not even talking about everything else she has at her disposal.

You can argue it till your blue in the fave but Kano has taken a dramatic fall post patch, he just doesn't have the tools that most characters have been blessed with in this game.
If the competent player is getting in then you're not zoning them well enough. It's more than just the projectiles. He also has competent footsie tools to help him play the neutral game, you're focussing way too much on his "pressure" or "rushdown" or "mixup" game. He doesn't have it because that's not how you're supposed to play him.

The assumption that you're making, that "Every character should have something that they can use to at least apply some form of legit pressure on your opponents", is untrue. It's true for rushdown characters and characters that actually are supposed to apply pressure but Cybernetic Kano isn't one of those characters. He's designed to keep them away and keep them at a distance where they can't get in as easily as they'd like but if they do get within a certain distance you play the neutral game.
Look at his B2, great reach and leads to full combo. You should be applying this move a decent amount because anything within jump distance should be playing a game of footsies instead of the knives at that point.
B1, great anti-air (which is what you should be focussing on more than using it in pressure) and great for trip guard and punishes too.
B3, not horrific distance, leads to B31 which is +1 or full combo, can mix B31 throw with B312 for "mixups".
F4, good distance, pretty fast, safe, leads to full combo if it hits.
D3, decent range, safe and a good footsie tool.
D4, great range, good for counterpoking, allows a safe knife throw.

Why does he need safer tools? Most of his strings are safe. And countering what others bring to the table? What do you even mean by that?

Ten times harder? Even though half of your gameplan against rushdown characters is knives knives knives? Lol I mean it's harder once they're in yeah, and that is inevitable, but ten times harder? Nah.

Forget about Kano's mixup game, that's not what he's designed for. You're looking at him the wrong way because he's not designed to be good at mixups. If you look at him as a rushdown character then I can see where you're coming from but he's not a rushdown character. Zoners are best at...zoning. That doesn't always mean projectiles mind you, it can also include playing footsies, whiff punishing as much as possible (which he has great tools to do) and baiting. If you can do that then you can do at least decently against most.

Cassie Cage is east to fight with Cybernetic Kano! That's one of his easier matchups lol. All you need to do is position yourself correctly, bait and walk back. I can't tell you how many times I've whiff punished B12s and sent them back to full screen.

"Dramatic fall" is a hell of an overstatement. They changed the recovery on one move and fixed the frames for a few others, half of which you're not even going to use realistically. Hell they actually made some stuff plus on block as well that does get used, like B31. Those changes are barely noticeable in my opinion because they haven't changed the way I play and win so you might just be looking at playing him the wrong way.
Yes he doesn't have the best tools in the game but he's well balanced and damn it that's a good thing. It'd be nice to have a top tier character and all but he really doesn't need anything. Someone has to be slightly worse, and he's still hella viable so I honestly think he doesn't need anything. Anything he gets that makes him top tier is just a bonus.
 

ando1184

Noob
Well there is one thing they could change to Kano but I think it's a bug. Kano can't cancel a MB ball on the 3rd bar of meter. Why is that????
 

dribirut

BLAK FELOW
Yeah because I'm basing my opinion of the character on playing online randoms...do you actually ever think before you come to conclusions? I mean you're saying he's lower mid now because Cybernetic (which is a zoning variation) doesn't have good rushdown? Do you not see how stupid that sounds? You're not supposed to play him as a pressure/rushdown character, I thought that'd be pretty obvious...
I do not think he is not good because he does not have good rushdown
 

ando1184

Noob
I don't get it. People coming here complaining Kano is too fair? Yeah he lacks dirt but that's a good thing. Balancing a game should be about removing dirt not giving it to all characters.
I agree, I would rather NRS do something like make erron black 12211 string not be special cancelable during the last few hits because let's face it, it's not a 50/50 that can be escaped at all. I thought they allowed gaps in strings and armored attacks to deal with situations like that, but that string doesn't have a gap in it. There is a gap after 122 though for both options. Sorry for the rant but that one string is what makes the erron black matchup frustrating for me. I mean he always has meter because of it too :(. Anyway back to the subject, I mentioned this because I'd rather see a fix like this than Kano having something just as abusable or broken himself.
 
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