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General/Other - Kano KANO IS LIKE, BOTTOM ZERO GUYS

LEGI0N47

I like to play bad characters
Cybernetic is a variation where if you outplay your opponent through a solid understanding of footsies and whiff punishing you'll win. The zoning he has is not for damage, but is to annoy your opponent into making a mistake and then punishing them for it.

Cutthroat is balls to the wall rushdown and nothing but, you want them to wakeup so you can ex buff in their face and destroy them. You have to play with absolutely no fear.

Commando is for shit's and giggles, this is a character that will never ever be higher than bottom 10 in a game with 70 characters. Props to whoever is sticking with him.

Also, is there someone really suggesting Erron Black is not top 5?
I think commando is better than a lot of people give it credit for. If you're the type of player who thrives on conditioning and making reads the damage adds up, smell blood in the water and you can really roll somebody up. The only downside is that if you don't play like that and just have good fundamentals or it's a tough-bad MU he lacks the more decent damage most chars have to keep up. But I have the most fun with this one.
 

FlappyDaniel

Snappin' spines all day e'ry day.
Nobody is saying overhaul him, so I'm glad you agree :). I would like to see some video if you fighting that Cybernetic, I'm curious what combos he's using.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Cybernetic is a variation where if you outplay your opponent through a solid understanding of footsies and whiff punishing you'll win.
Wrong game, fool. You must be thinking about Ultra Street Fighter IV.

Cybernetic is a variation in which if you outplay your opponent using "a solid understanding of footsies and whiff punishing", you will still lose because none of your footsies and whiff punishing tools lead to 50/50 mix ups or highly advantageous pressure. Any player who plays this game at any meaningful level ought to understand this concept by now.

What would Cybernetic Kano be with 50/50 mix ups and/or pressure, you wonder? Bone Shaper Shinnok. HQT Predator. Summoner Quan Chi. You know, the viable zoning characters of the game. But for now, Kano is unfortunately just a poor man's version of these characters. Hell, even Royal Storm Kitana is better now. She has no mix ups either, but the massive damage output somewhat compensates for the lack of offensive options.
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
Nobody is saying overhaul him, so I'm glad you agree :). I would like to see some video if you fighting that Cybernetic, I'm curious what combos he's using.
OK. Next time we play, I'll stream it and put it up on YT.
 

ando1184

Noob
The horizontal one...

I had a lot of success using the Up-Ball too though. I was just using it for anti-air, but it was great for stuffing jumpers.

I know a lot of people complain about it, but don't really know the issue. Do they want to use it to punish grounded opponents?
No and yes about upball. It's a 6f move so sometimes yes it needs to punish in between strings where regular ex black dragon ball won't. But it's main issue is that as a wakeup it still whiffs sometimes and that causes it to be unsafe as hell. On top of that it gets stuffed quite a bit when used as an AA, I know I've been njp out of it and jump kicked as well. It was MB'd but it still didn't absorb a hit or trade or anything :(
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
Wrong game, fool. You must be thinking about Ultra Street Fighter IV.

Cybernetic is a variation in which if you outplay your opponent using "a solid understanding of footsies and whiff punishing", you will still lose because none of your footsies and whiff punishing tools lead to 50/50 mix ups or highly advantageous pressure. Any player who plays this game at any meaningful level ought to understand this concept by now.

What would Cybernetic Kano be with 50/50 mix ups and/or pressure, you wonder? Bone Shaper Shinnok. HQT Predator. Summoner Quan Chi. You know, the viable zoning characters of the game. But for now, Kano is unfortunately just a poor man's version of these characters. Hell, even Royal Storm Kitana is better now. She has no mix ups either, but the massive damage output somewhat compensates for the lack of offensive options.
I hate Kitana, but she's pretty good now. I haven't played anyone on the level of a Sonic Fox or Kitana Prime, but there are a lot more good Kitanas out there now.

As far as 50-50 pressure, his back 2 puts the opponent in enough hitstun to start the mixups. His low combo starts up immediately and the opponent is close enough to neutral 1 or 2. It may be reactable for some, but if its hit on the first frame that causes a bounce - it makes it tough.

We've had our differences, but you know I wouldn't just make stuff up. If anyone could figure it out from scratch, its you. Just a heads up.
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
No and yes about upball. It's a 6f move so sometimes yes it needs to punish in between strings where regular ex black dragon ball won't. But it's main issue is that as a wakeup it still whiffs sometimes and that causes it to be unsafe as hell. On top of that it gets stuffed quite a bit when used as an AA, I know I've been njp out of it and jump kicked as well. It was MB'd but it still didn't absorb a hit or trade or anything :(
I never used it for wakeup. The threat of the EX Choke was enough. Wakeups, and the mindgames around them, were my first focus in MKX. Once I saw how key they were in ESL, I knew to focus on that aspect first; before combos, zoning, and even before movement.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Play it off any way you like. I know I'm right. These are mid-screen combos. The Reptile one was only once and with an X-ray, but the Cybernetic Kano ones have been doin' work against me for a long time. I play guys in ESL. I play guys that played MKX at EVO. I always look to play guys that are better than me and I'm never satisfied. I recognize tech when I see it even if I can't recreate it.

Of course, you just want what you want. Kano doesn't need an overhaul at all. He's very viable. A few tweaks here and there wouldn't hurt, but saying he isn't viable are the words of a child.
As I have said, you have proven that you know absolutely nothing about the character, which in turn means you are not qualified to comment on what he may or may not need. Until you can provide these "consistent 40+% 1 bar mid screen Cyber Kano" combos you speak, that you "know you're right" about, your opinion will continue being worthless. At best.

Cybernetic is a variation in which if you outplay your opponent using "a solid understanding of footsies and whiff punishing", you will still lose because none of your footsies and whiff punishing tools lead to 50/50 mix ups or highly advantageous pressure. Any player who plays this game at any meaningful level ought to understand this concept by now.

What would Cybernetic Kano be with 50/50 mix ups and/or pressure, you wonder? Bone Shaper Shinnok. HQT Predator. Summoner Quan Chi. You know, the viable zoning characters of the game. But for now, Kano is unfortunately just a poor man's version of these characters. Hell, even Royal Storm Kitana is better now. She has no mix ups either, but the massive damage output somewhat compensates for the lack of offensive options.
:u This on the other hand, is likely the most accurate word for word description on Cyber Kano in a month.
 

ando1184

Noob
I never used it for wakeup. The threat of the EX Choke was enough. Wakeups, and the mindgames around them, were my first focus in MKX. Once I saw how key they were in ESL, I knew to focus on that aspect first; before combos, zoning, and even before movement.
That's a good mindset to have bud, zoning and movement tie into mind games as well so don't count those out. Yeh, ex upball used to be a big risk but not that it's -5, it's become another option. Well it's supposed to be anyway, and for cutthroat and cyber it helps to be that extra option. Choke is really good too now since it's safe on block but it's a high and can be baited a little easier.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
We've had our differences, but you know I wouldn't just make stuff up. If anyone could figure it out from scratch, its you. Just a heads up.
In my opinion, there is nothing to figure out. Cybernetic is a pitiful variation, but I do not care enough to complain or beg NRS for buffs because there are feasibly three top tier zoning-based characters in the game already, with one more potentially being included tomorrow. Besides, who knows which characters the rumored Kombat Pack 2 could bring.

I do agree with @SaltShaker that the Cutthroat variation is probably mid tier, but its use baffles me and begs me to ask why. Why would anyone use a mid tier 50/50 mix up character when there are like at least five better ones from which to pick. Maybe you like Kano as a character? Or maybe you like to live dangerously because the overhead attack whiffs so much? I do not get it.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
I am genuinely interested in what a 40% one bar cyber midscreen combo looks like. Unless we're all missing something(and we could very well be!), he tops out at 37% at the midscreen.
And that's off of a "mainly used as a punisher" normal. But maybe everyone is wrong and the dude who didn't play Cyber Kano more than a few days has a "friend" who can do top tier damage with him. :rolleyes:
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
In my opinion, there is nothing to figure out. Cybernetic is a pitiful variation, but I do not care enough to complain or beg NRS for buffs because there are feasibly three top tier zoning-based characters in the game already, with one more potentially being included tomorrow. Besides, who knows which characters the rumored Kombat Pack 2 could bring.

I do agree with @SaltShaker that the Cutthroat variation is probably mid tier, but its use baffles me and begs me to ask why. Why would anyone use a mid tier 50/50 mix up character when there are like at least five better ones from which to pick. Maybe you like Kano as a character? Or maybe you like to live dangerously because the overhead attack whiffs so much? I do not get it.
This is true. Better with Tanya than I could ever dream of being with Kano. A part of me hopes he doesn't get a single buff so when we look back in January and everyone is like "oh Cyber is low tier. Unviable." I can proceed to bump threads and posts from these fools.

I do agree with @SaltShaker that the Cutthroat variation is probably mid tier, but its use baffles me and begs me to ask why. maybe you like to live dangerously because the overhead attack whiffs so much?
Lmaoooooooo!!!
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
In my opinion, there is nothing to figure out. Cybernetic is a pitiful variation, but I do not care enough to complain or beg NRS for buffs because there are feasibly three top tier zoning-based characters in the game already, with one more potentially being included tomorrow. Besides, who knows which characters the rumored Kombat Pack 2 could bring.

I do agree with @SaltShaker that the Cutthroat variation is probably mid tier, but its use baffles me and begs me to ask why. Why would anyone use a mid tier 50/50 mix up character when there are like at least five better ones from which to pick. Maybe you like Kano as a character? Or maybe you like to live dangerously because the overhead attack whiffs so much? I do not get it.
My mains now are Kotal Khan and Jax with Online Troll Jason creeping up the rear. Kano is in that second group which includes Ermac, Quan, Raiden, and Predator. In that second group, Kano is my best character in that second group in terms of easy success.

I'll see if he's cool with putting up the tech, I'll link it here. If you wanna see for yourself on XB1, just add Dr. Koolsauce and ask to see his Kano.
 

Apex Kano

Kano Commando main MKX
I play Commando Kano and I win fair amount of games. As soon as you get the parries down, you set the tone. You have to play defensively and patience. Kano is not easy mode, and too many folks here whats easy mode Bojutsu.

Thats why I take pride with each win and celebrate when i beat Bojutsu, Thunder Lord, Grandmaster, and other tier humpers online.

Yes, Kano can use a OH string to keep people honest. Also, he could use a AA grab and air grab for Commando. More tick throw options ( Erron Black tick throws off everything and he is not the premier grappler, like Commando), and pop ups from EX grabs and parries.

P.S. Just check ouy my Youtube apage for all Commando Kano love. Youtube name: PrimBloodGhost Online Gaming
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Yeah, but Showtime already basically said what we've been all saying.
No he didn't, you've all been saying he's low tier and needs buffs to compete. Showtime said he could use some buffs (not that he needed them) and that he's one of the most solid characters in the game.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
No he didn't, you've all been saying he's low tier and needs buffs to compete. Showtime said he could use some buffs (not that he needed them) and that he's one of the most solid characters in the game.
Not to interrupt, but what he said was not "could", it was can. It was "He can use a couple little buffs but nothing to crazy." This is literally exactly what a lot of us have been saying, that he can use a few buffs but nothing too crazy, which is why I agreed with him. Hell the Fixes+Buffs OP only suggest what, 5 buffs total across 3 variations? With stuff like increasing priority on pokeable Ball Specials or increasing EX Cyber Knives a few frames+ so it can't be armored and backdashed for full combo punishes like Lao's hat, Shinnok's skulls, Jax wave, etc etc? That sounds much more in line with Showtime's comment of "He can use a couple little buffs but nothing to crazy." than something like asking for 12f OH's, full armored active frames on EX Buff, and 17% Commando Air Grabs which is "kinda crazy".

Now some of us think he's low tier (me, Dave, Dribirut, etc) and some think he is still solid mid tier (Flappy, Showtime, you, etc). While we may disagree on the tier placement part, we almost unanimously agree that he needs a few smaller buffs (that still wouldn't make him Top 10 anyway), and nothing major to his character.
 

FlappyDaniel

Snappin' spines all day e'ry day.
This is why I don't like "Tier" lists... Like I realize the purpose they serve, but people take them far too seriously, and they look at them and think that somebody who is mid or low tier absolutely can NOT beat a top tier, and that's not how lists should be interpreted, ESPECIALLY when we don't have lists that are based on Matchups instead of just arbitrary tools and their value on paper. Especially in this game and at this time it seems like the low and mid tiers can easily compete as long as the person knows how to play their variation and knows how to pace the match and do things to control it to make the match play out in a way that advantages your character. Now there are cases of course where a low tier (let's say jacqui just for argument) has a LOT of trouble against some higher tiers because of her tiny Trex arms that can't punish anything, but she has ALL kinds of other powerful tools, and what largely make her low tier is her possible relative lack of presence in the neutral game when going up against somebody with stronger footsies. But this does not mean that she absolutely cannot take games, it means that she has an obvious weakness that can be fairly easily exposed if the opponent is aware and plays around her mediocre footsies (her walkspeed helps make up for it). Doesn't mean the character is just trash and broken, it means her weakness is much easier to exploit then other characters and she has to kind of play in a very rigid sort of uphill playstyle to keep people within parameters where she excels, and since it takes more effort to play the character or her playstyle does't mesh with the meta, she is labeled as low tier. I think characters with strong mobility who don't have quite as much power are being overlooked but this mobility is likely a core tool in making more opportunities for ourselves, I know when I play my buddy who plays a LOT of FA jacqui, he is constantly using her walk speed to whiff punish my strings, and it's really powerful and makes me respect her in the up close to mid range neutral game, where I normally wouldn't. And likewise when he plays Tanya or Dvorah I am constantly using Kano's powerful backdash to get out of situations and re establish my own pressure or punish.

I rambled a lot and kinda forgot my point, but basically fuck tier lists, I wish people would just play like back in the day where you picked a character you liked, figure out how to best use their tools, and slaughter kids regardless of tiers.