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Question I'm currently playing nightwolf and I fail to see 'why he is bad'

Flagg

Noob
The problem with a LOT of mid to low tier characters is that they are in fact pretty balanced. Everyone above them has some sort of BS like excessive armour, excessive damage, safe armour, safe zoning, safe rush down, and so on.
 

CheapEddie

I HAVE A FACE NOW!
That's odd. I've tried to counter poke every character that links in a special off their D1 and he's the only character I cannot counter-poke. The hatchet just launches me every time.
Just go with a fast normal, what a problem? :)
 
his f3 does beat many d4s. But it is 11 frames...d4 are 12 frames. You cant react to d4, you have to make a read. And against half the cast making that read and being wrong results in a wiff punish at the highest level. So saying f3 stuffs d4 is a little bit of an over simplification.

Also, Freddy, Sonya, Kabal, and Kenshi are all potential 8-2 MU. We will never know for sure but saying he has no MU worse than 7-3 is a statement you just cant make. It is VERY possible that he has a few 8-2 MUs.
I've played and watched nw fight those characters and they're tough but pretty manageable. For it to be a 8-2 mu is downplaying because he never gets beat that hard
 

GGA Saucy Jack

The artist formerly known as ImNewbieSauce
The reason some people think NW is solid, and others say he is bad, is because this is "Test Your Might", not "Test Your Character Against Your Friends". All I'm saying is that this forum is frequented by the a lot of the best players in the world. Most of the discussions here are going to lean towards tournament play, and the highest level of competition.

All in all, most people here probably agree, but it's the perspective of the speaker that leads to the specific words used in the response. But when you ask TYM, "Is NW good?"....the answer will generally be "no" because against the current top characters, he struggles considerably.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
I stand corrected, that is pretty nice.
I don't really know why NW is considered bad. He seems solid.
All the issues highlighted in the thread add up. Bad ranged game without an up close game to offset that sucks. On top of a mediocre wakeup defense.
 

trustinme

xbl-OBS trustinme
I've played and watched nw fight those characters and they're tough but pretty manageable. For it to be a 8-2 mu is downplaying because he never gets beat that hard
freddy manageable? lol that match is fucking impossible dude. nightmare stance to dodge lightning? at least the other characters have to move out of the way
 
Having played seriously both character I find this hard to believe.

I'm pretty sure in every situation nightwolf outdamage Jade.

JIP :

NW: meterless 39% (JIP 122 xx hatchet, b2 xx hatchet, 1, 122 xx shoulder)
vs
Jade: meterless 37% (JIP b1 xx staff overhead, 1, 12, 12 xx shadow kick xx shadow kick) (correct me if I'm wrong, been a while I played her)

Corner :

NW: Meterless 43-44%
Jade: Meterless 42%

And let's be serious here. You won't hit B1 as easy as you will 12/d3/b3 mixups. However this mix-up does no damage! Hell in the corner you will get AT BEST 25% while every touch nightwolf will do is easily 40%+

Alright, let's take into consideration 'the glow factor'. The glow factor sadly does NOT give you damage only allows you to armor through. Mid screen? At best you will land 37% for a bar of meter WITH a risky b1. Sadly Jade is high risk/low reward.

At range, let's be serious here, Jade's projectile are thrash vs Nightwolf. He can regen on REACTION for a bar of meter or even reflect them.

Quite honestly I believe it is 6-4 for NW best case scenario for Jade.

I didn't cover the 'meter game' because there's way to many parameters but I seriously believe nw has the upper hand. I do not claim the following fact but I believe ex shoulder even has armor crush proprieties vs glow anyway. I need to test this more before making it fact though... his shoulder is somewhat weird.
NW can do 42% off a jip
 

Wemfs

The only morality in a cruel world is chance.
I was derping around with Nightwolf last night and I have some things on my mind so I will think out loud here.

Is there a reason why nw players never end their block strings with charge or choke instead of axe swing? Charge is only -3 and has good push back. Choke is only -2, but doesn't have much push back, and then theirs his axe swing that leaves you at -6.

What sort of mix-ups does he have, if any? There's no reason at all to block low against him during his strings so you don't have to worry about getting hit by his overhead. Does he only have throw mix-ups or am I missing something?

B2 has great range and it looks like it hits mid. Does it hit mid on everyone? I can see it being useful against people trying to neutral duck all the time expecting to punish those shoulder charges.

Lightning traps? Lightnings execution frames - 31f. Hit advantage on his F+3,1,2 - +57, +33. Worth going for? I guess not cause why not just finish his bnb combo after the F+3, 1 connects right?

Utilizing his Ex choke to interrupt strings and such.

Is Ex axe swing a complete waste of meter unless used in a combo?
 

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
I was derping around with Nightwolf last night and I have some things on my mind so I will think out loud here.

Is there a reason why nw players never end their block strings with charge or choke instead of axe swing? Charge is only -3 and has good push back. Choke is only -2, but doesn't have much push back, and then theirs his axe swing that leaves you at -6.

What sort of mix-ups does he have, if any? There's no reason at all to block low against him during his strings so you don't have to worry about getting hit by his overhead. Does he only have throw mix-ups or am I missing something?

B2 has great range and it looks like it hits mid. Does it hit mid on everyone? I can see it being useful against people trying to neutral duck all the time expecting to punish those shoulder charges.

Lightning traps? Lightnings execution frames - 31f. Hit advantage on his F+3,1,2 - +57, +33. Worth going for? I guess not cause why not just finish his bnb combo after the F+3, 1 connects right?

Utilizing his Ex choke to interrupt strings and such.

Is Ex axe swing a complete waste of meter unless used in a combo?
Great questions...

Shoulder hits high so unless they are blocking high, ending in shoulder charge will get you full combo punished. After the overhead in b22 (M, O) and 122 (H, M, O) you can use shoulder on block (and I do this often) to maintain pressure instead of pushing them out to jump distance. The pushback makes it impossible to punish and is the same as ending in skarlets slide IMO. Ending in choke has no pushback and IMO is a bad idea but the frame data says its safe...its just not my preferance

His mixups are not 50/50 misups. They are kind of like raiden misxups...making them block for chip and throws or catch them neutral blocking for a combo or arrow trap (more viable than people realize). I can go into this more if you like.

B2 is mid on everyone but it isnt an overhead. the second hit is an overhead though. which forces people to stand block which opens up shoulder charge. It is great for catching people neutral crouching.

He has no guaranteed Lightning traps. Essentially this means that he isnt broken...lol. He has no BS but that doesnt make eh lightning useless. Any knockdown can give you eh lightning traps. Its the knockdowns that are quick and hard to techroll that give you more eh lightnings. Some characters can get out of lightning every time on reaction and full combo punish. Its something you need to know in certain MU.

Eh choke is great to use to interrupt strings and jip.

Eh axe is his best wakeup and when people try to pressure you on wakeup without jumping over with d4 and such, this will grant you a combo every time. other than that I use it for chip damage and to create space and bait something. It is neutral on block and should be used when you have lots of meter...some MU you would'nt use this (cyrax) but others is fine (Quan chi).
 
freddy manageable? lol that match is fucking impossible dude. nightmare stance to dodge lightning? at least the other characters have to move out of the way
You shouldn't be using lightning anyways in that mu because Freddy has several answers for it. And why is it so bad for nw? Freddys rushdown is definitely not something to be afraid of, and all projectiles except ground claws get reflected.
 

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
You shouldn't be using lightning anyways in that mu because Freddy has several answers for it. And why is it so bad for nw? Freddys rushdown is definitely not something to be afraid of, and all projectiles except ground claws get reflected.
Once reflected, Freddy can avoid them easily. His nms avoids everything plus he can teleport out if needed. NW cannot hurt Freddy from full screen reflecting. Plus baiting reflect is easy with nms. He can't approach Freddy because shoulder gets full combo punished by nms 1 if he shoulders or jumps. he is constantly reflectng something or jumping away from claws or blocking them. So he can never approach safely. And if he builds meter he can't lightning or eh shoulder so the meter is useless for things except absorb and breaker.

It's an unwinnable fight.
 
He literally has no mix ups. Get out of here with lightning it only works ounce. What do you do when you get in? His zoning and anti zoning isn't very threatening. He seems to rely on footsies aka human error to get his damage. Not that he doesn't have his tools, he is just too honest.
 

trustinme

xbl-OBS trustinme
You shouldn't be using lightning anyways in that mu because Freddy has several answers for it. And why is it so bad for nw? Freddys rushdown is definitely not something to be afraid of, and all projectiles except ground claws get reflected.
by the time you've reflected a projectile he's already hit you with a ground spike and he can punish all nw's wakeup attacks with nightmare stance.your one move is ex shoulder which gets a knockdown but then he's just going to teleport away when he gets up.ok so lets say you get in what are you going to do?a blockstring that just pushes him away.yeah your right lightning is a waste of time but its just the fact that freddy doesnt even have to move to avoid it just go into nightmare stance.
 

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
Yeah would you go more into his mixups please?
After rewatching this I am embarrassed I ever did this...but this is just like how tyrant uses f4 projectile with jax for 50/50 pressure. This is similar but works because they guessed right and blocked. if they block the lightning will connect. Its a total gimmick but it works often.

Footsies

Hope these help. I also am starting to throw much more. his throw can lead to OTG with f3 and axe and b4. You can also jump over with jip, or deep jump kick into throw again or pressure. Both forward and back throws work well for this. Ill dash in and jab/throw you all day.
 

EMPEROR_THEO

I only use characters with wakeup scoops.
L0rdoftheFLY

Can't you armor through every part of NW's F314? Doesn't this mean that if your character has good armor, there is no guessing game to begin with because its a win win of -13 on block and just armoring through? Just wanted some light shed on this to confirm the turd factor of NW.