Question - Goro Goro's best variation?

[Nuovo_Cabjoy]

Having mained TF and played a bit of KW and DF, I feel that KW's biggest weakness is meter building.

Goro is never in a truly bad position as long as he has a meter stocked. TF builds meter comfortably with relatively low risk flameballs and DF actually does well building meter with d1xxFang Spin.

KW is the only variation where it can be tough to build meter in certain situations. The 12% damage from ex ground pound is very very good, but KW is ironically the one variation which really needs to think twice before burning meter.

Time to mess with the other variations! After being sad with how the character turned out on release, I'm so excited to be playing this guy again. Thanks for the info!

 

[Vintagesoul]

Can anyone explain the pros to Dragon Fangs compared to the other variations and what matchups are preferable for DF? I'm not very knowledgeable on that variation.

This was in the general thread and sort of already answered, but since I've been playing a lot of DF lately and I'm getting that warm tingly sensation you get when you learn a new character and want to evangelise, I guess I'll post this here.

Dragon Fang
Notable attributes
- Fang Spin has shorter range than punch walk and only has 1 hit of armour, but does more chip, is only -3 on block, and has a better hit box against airborne opponents. Ex Fang Spin is Goro's best anti-air and a great move to throw out if you think they're going to jump away.

Part of the learning curve of DF is understanding when's the best time to PW and to FS.

- D1 has extra range and a disjointed hitbox. It has the same range as Johnny Cage's d4. Add in the fact that it has some very good specials to follow up with and you have one of the best pokes in the entire game. d1xx Fang Spin; d1xxPW and d1, Shokan Stab are all great to throw out on defense and can be used sparingly on offense for chip pressure and meter building (d1xx Fang Spin and d1xx PW are not block strings, but if you alternate them with d1,Block, its tough for the opponent to reaction armour through them, making them still solid on offense). However, note that D1 still has less range than Goro's d4.

Part of the learning curve of DF is knowing how to use D1 to out prioritise the opponent's ground buttons and when to buffer into a special.

Once you learn that, then you gotta learn how not to over rely on down 1 because its still just a poke- its good for stuffing the opponent's buttons but can't optimally punish negative on block moves because it doesn't start combos.

- B12, 11 and 121 have extra range. This makes certain punishes easier than in Goro's other variations.

- NJP has more range and a slightly disjointed hitbox. Always nice for defense.

- Low Fang is a 14 frame low that has slightly more range than f3. Its also not too bad on whiff with only 21 recovery frames. Although the frame data says its -8 on block, its actually less than that if you hit at the tip of the claw. Fully spaced out, its around -6- Reptile's elbow dash and Lao's Spins can't punish it but Reptile's Ex Slide will always be able to punish it. Ex Low Fang has a really long armour window. If you meaty an opponent and he does a 1 hit wake up attack, there's a good chance you'll have armoured his wake up attack (and probably recovered faster to boot).

- Shokan Stabs has 2% more damage but slightly worse oki than Shokan Grab because its less + on hit. But this isn't really a big problem, because you can follow up with- Dash-run,f4 / Dash-run, Low Fang / Dash-run, Ex Low Fang / Dash-run, PW / Dash-run Ex PW. Between them they cover all(?) the opponent's wake up options and have a 50/50 embedded.

Pros:
- Best defense amongst all three variations. No questions.
- Best footsies or second best amongst all three variations thanks to the power of a disjointed hitbox on d1. KW is still the king of whiff punishing with Chest lunge.
- Best chip pressure, thanks to Fang Spin.
- Strong oki due to Ex Fang Low having armour and being +12 on block.
- Decent far range mix up due to Fang Low and f4 being a 50/50.

Cons:
- Worst screen control. This is pretty much why few players main DF- KW has ground pound / Chest lunge and TF has strong fireballs. DF has to takes risks to get in with stomp/dash/jump. Fireball can counter zone some characters, but won't win you games.

- No risk free pressure- everything you do with DF on pressure can be countered. The good news is that DF still has good odds as long as you remain unpredictable. Don't get stuck with the same 1 or 2 pressure approaches.

Match ups:
I'm unsure what are his bad/worst match ups. But one thing is almost for sure- DF is Goro's best variation against Scorpion, because the other variations still have a tough time against his j3 and air teleport.

 

[Nuovo_Cabjoy]

Alright so after sticking with KW at my local tourney this past weekend I think I'm starting to see some of the issues the variation has, and I'm starting to lean towards TF (though @Vintagesoul you put up a good argument for DF, sounds fun!).

First and foremost, KW's fullscreen presence is lacking. Ground pound is there, but is an incredible risk outside of a few situations (after a SG, for example). If reacted to, it's very bad as we all know. When playing against patient players I was forced to come to them and take some risks, which just resulted in me doing some stupid things and getting punished (this isn't necessarily a problem with the variation, more a problem with my lack of experience and need of time to become accustomed to the range of Goro's normals a bit better).

The main reason I was using KW over the other variations was because of the appeal of EX GP, and having the ability to do so after any bnb, tick throw, or raw gp. It's very good, but as has been mentioned elsewhere in the thread, it results in KW being deficient in meter a lot of the time (I only tend to use EX GP to close out rounds, but even still it sends you to the next round less a bar. If you're going into the third round with no meter, it's bad times.)

While EX GP is sexy, why not use TF and build meter with a half decent fireball instead? The way I see it, you're likely to get at least 1 fireball in a round, giving you similar damage while keeping you in a meter surplus. This opens up more opportunities to mb your stray punchwalks or save it for armour, which is an extra 30ish% damage over an additional 12%.

I'm liking the possibilities with Flame breath, too. It's one of those tools that will likely get blown up by good players, but once again becomes a great conditioning tool. They might block a f3 flame breath the first time, armour through the second, but when you f3 punchwalk instead they become a lot less eager to try their luck, especially now that we can MB it.

Low fireball seems a bit ehh to me, but I think the better utility of straight fireball alone is enough to make me want to play TF, with the flame breath a nice additional tool.

One thing I'd like to hear the long time Goro players discuss is their meter management philosophy with Goro. As of now, I've mostly been blowing the meter when I can simply because I haven't sat down and thought about it. I think my approach now would be play patient and try to get the first hit, be liberal with meter and try to win the first round, use meter in the second round sparingly and do your best to go into the last round with 2-3 bars. Thoughts?

@Espio
@AoK Ryan
@Metzos


(Oh and just a quick note to the players saying Goro gives up his up close game after a SG, you can just forward dash twice, or forward dash run and you're back in their face. You have enough advantage to do this.)

 

[MrSunshine]

Alright so after sticking with KW at my local tourney this past weekend I think I'm starting to see some of the issues the variation has, and I'm starting to lean towards TF (though @Vintagesoul you put up a good argument for DF, sounds fun!).

First and foremost, KW's fullscreen presence is lacking. Ground pound is there, but is an incredible risk outside of a few situations (after a SG, for example). If reacted to, it's very bad as we all know. When playing against patient players I was forced to come to them and take some risks, which just resulted in me doing some stupid things and getting punished (this isn't necessarily a problem with the variation, more a problem with my lack of experience and need of time to become accustomed to the range of Goro's normals a bit better).

The main reason I was using KW over the other variations was because of the appeal of EX GP, and having the ability to do so after any bnb, tick throw, or raw gp. It's very good, but as has been mentioned elsewhere in the thread, it results in KW being deficient in meter a lot of the time (I only tend to use EX GP to close out rounds, but even still it sends you to the next round less a bar. If you're going into the third round with no meter, it's bad times.)

While EX GP is sexy, why not use TF and build meter with a half decent fireball instead? The way I see it, you're likely to get at least 1 fireball in a round, giving you similar damage while keeping you in a meter surplus. This opens up more opportunities to mb your stray punchwalks or save it for armour, which is an extra 30ish% damage over an additional 12%.

I'm liking the possibilities with Flame breath, too. It's one of those tools that will likely get blown up by good players, but once again becomes a great conditioning tool. They might block a f3 flame breath the first time, armour through the second, but when you f3 punchwalk instead they become a lot less eager to try their luck, especially now that we can MB it.

Low fireball seems a bit ehh to me, but I think the better utility of straight fireball alone is enough to make me want to play TF, with the flame breath a nice additional tool.

One thing I'd like to hear the long time Goro players discuss is their meter management philosophy with Goro. As of now, I've mostly been blowing the meter when I can simply because I haven't sat down and thought about it. I think my approach now would be play patient and try to get the first hit, be liberal with meter and try to win the first round, use meter in the second round sparingly and do your best to go into the last round with 2-3 bars. Thoughts?

@Espio
@AoK Ryan
@Metzos


(Oh and just a quick note to the players saying Goro gives up his up close game after a SG, you can just forward dash twice, or forward dash run and you're back in their face. You have enough advantage to do this.)

I almost never used EX GP. Reg GP is a good enough tool because its a fear tactic.

I usually condition my opponent to expect it, than try mixing it up by: false inputting another ground pound to make my opponent move, as a result: projectile them, stomp, another ground pound, lunge, f3 if they run at you, or just reposition myself. S0 i disagree on his lack of full screen presence.

I find more success with KW than tigar but thats just my preference.
Tigar is good as well like you stated. I'd just keep playing both and explore until it suits your play style.

 

[Mortal Komhat]

That, however, requires them to respect the GP which, even at full screen they don't have to do. You might not be able to condition them, and if so you don't really have extra tools to take care of the situation.

I genuinely consider TF better, but in terms of raw damage, KW takes the cake because of the EX GP followups.

 

[MrSunshine]

That, however, requires them to respect the GP which, even at full screen they don't have to do. You might not be able to condition them, and if so you don't really have extra tools to take care of the situation.

I genuinely consider TF better, but in terms of raw damage, KW takes the cake because of the EX GP followups.

How can they not respect it? If they delay wake up, jump, dash, or wake up, they're trying to avoid the GP.

 

[Vintagesoul]

Oh and just a quick note to the players saying Goro gives up his up close game after a SG, you can just forward dash twice, or forward dash run and you're back in their face. You have enough advantage to do this.

Other options include dash-run f4 and dash-run b4, which is a 50/50.

Like I posted in the general thread, Goro's dash is faster than in run, so it always make sense to wait till the end of the dash animation before immediately cancelling into the run. This ensures that you move far forward enough, but still have enough plus frames so that f4 hits meaty.

 

[Espio]

Revisiting this discussion, my opinion has remained fixed on Tigrar Fury over the months, but now I am giving Dragon Fangs a candid look just for fun. Tigrar Fury has the plus frames, zoning, footsies and what not that makes Goro the most well rounded of the three variations in my opinion.


I to this day don't feel like ground pound in Kuatan Warrior is something that forces much unless people are just antsy and sloppy. You can play reactionary and be fine against the ground pound/fireball/stomp game. The only reason why I even give ground pound a real nod is because of the guaranteed damage you tack onto the end of combos. I also don't feel like it helps against any of his trying/challenging match ups. The only match up I can think of that it's better in is against Grandmaster Sub-Zero honestly.


Dragon Fangs is weird, I'm not sure it's the worst cause I feel like it helps with his defense and anti-air while making him less reliant on zoning strategies because he's not really built around being a heavily reliant zoning character.

Alright so after sticking with KW at my local tourney this past weekend I think I'm starting to see some of the issues the variation has, and I'm starting to lean towards TF (though @Vintagesoul you put up a good argument for DF, sounds fun!).

First and foremost, KW's fullscreen presence is lacking. Ground pound is there, but is an incredible risk outside of a few situations (after a SG, for example). If reacted to, it's very bad as we all know. When playing against patient players I was forced to come to them and take some risks, which just resulted in me doing some stupid things and getting punished (this isn't necessarily a problem with the variation, more a problem with my lack of experience and need of time to become accustomed to the range of Goro's normals a bit better).

The main reason I was using KW over the other variations was because of the appeal of EX GP, and having the ability to do so after any bnb, tick throw, or raw gp. It's very good, but as has been mentioned elsewhere in the thread, it results in KW being deficient in meter a lot of the time (I only tend to use EX GP to close out rounds, but even still it sends you to the next round less a bar. If you're going into the third round with no meter, it's bad times.)

While EX GP is sexy, why not use TF and build meter with a half decent fireball instead? The way I see it, you're likely to get at least 1 fireball in a round, giving you similar damage while keeping you in a meter surplus. This opens up more opportunities to mb your stray punchwalks or save it for armour, which is an extra 30ish% damage over an additional 12%.

I'm liking the possibilities with Flame breath, too. It's one of those tools that will likely get blown up by good players, but once again becomes a great conditioning tool. They might block a f3 flame breath the first time, armour through the second, but when you f3 punchwalk instead they become a lot less eager to try their luck, especially now that we can MB it.

Low fireball seems a bit ehh to me, but I think the better utility of straight fireball alone is enough to make me want to play TF, with the flame breath a nice additional tool.

One thing I'd like to hear the long time Goro players discuss is their meter management philosophy with Goro. As of now, I've mostly been blowing the meter when I can simply because I haven't sat down and thought about it. I think my approach now would be play patient and try to get the first hit, be liberal with meter and try to win the first round, use meter in the second round sparingly and do your best to go into the last round with 2-3 bars. Thoughts?

@Espio
@AoK Ryan
@Metzos


(Oh and just a quick note to the players saying Goro gives up his up close game after a SG, you can just forward dash twice, or forward dash run and you're back in their face. You have enough advantage to do this.)

Low fireball is a tool like Kitana's Royal Storm lift where you're not going to be using it all the time, but if you've conditioned people to neutral duck your fireball/fans you can blow them up hard for good damage.

Flame breath's range is obnoxious so you can use it as a footsie tool without putting it on strings as well and against wake ups that don't advance outwardly a lot it can be pretty hilarious cause those characters have to hold the breath range and their wake up ends up either being stuffed, they take damage and you remain safe. In most cases, you're in ranged to check them with forward 3 still so you're building meter and harassing them.


I try to always keep at least one bar of meter with Goro so people are always worried and thinking about whether I'll armor or not at various points in time. In Tigrar Fury, I feel like I almost always have at least a decent amount of meter unless I'm just blowing through meter haphazardly. I do not feel it's necessary to pour a bunch of meter into the first round. He's not helpless without meter and if you're too reliant on your meter, it's harder to catch people with it. Like the Goro players who get their punch walk blocked and then ex punch walk shortly after I usually just make them waste meter then they can't break and what not. Part of the armor mix up is not using your meter to give your opponent a false sense of security in pressuring you then you blow them up for thinking they can get away with doing so.

The only time I'll pour a lot of meter into round 1 is if it's super duper close and I wanna make sure I get the round while comboing them and I'll put another bar on a combo or what not otherwise nope.

 

[Nuovo_Cabjoy]

snip

Nice, our thoughts on GP are basically the same then. Way too easy to wait and react to.

All very good advice that I'll take on board. Give me a week or two and I'm sure I'll have a more interesting opinion on some nice stuff with the character.

I'm very very excited to actually dedicate myself completely to this guy! I've been waiting a long time for this! haha

 

[Vintagesoul]

DF is the closest thing to Doomsday that I've played in this game.

 

[Mortal Komhat]

I to this day don't feel like ground pound in Kuatan Warrior is something that forces much unless people are just antsy and sloppy. You can play reactionary and be fine against the ground pound/fireball/stomp game. The only reason why I even give ground pound a real nod is because of the guaranteed damage you tack onto the end of combos. I also don't feel like it helps against any of his trying/challenging match ups. The only match up I can think of that it's better in is against Grandmaster Sub-Zero honestly.

Ground Pounding as advertised by some people here against anyone remotely competent in fighting games will lead to Goro getting his shit pushed in. +12% is nothing to sneeze at and pushes KW as top damage, but other than that, it's got not much.

 

[Metzos]

@Cabjoy, depends on the MU. For example, against KL and Scorpion, DF is the best choice, cause of his 50/50's, raw damage (for example f3xxdb2 deals 21% dmg) and excellent uninterruptible pressure. Plus the hitbox of his moves is better in DF. KL can punish ON REACTION KW's ground pounds. That doesnt mean KW cant win. It means that he must play very carefully against KL.

KW is not only gp people. Chest Lunge is a great footsie tool as well. Opponent cant just jump free, throw projectiles or whiff buttons when in chest lunge range. Plus as a wake up tool its extremely good as well. As mentioned in an above post, KW's gp can put the fear in the opponents mentality, simply because its there. KW can condition his opponents to jump after a successful one or two gp's and then, chest lunge, d2 and ofc u1/u2 come in.

I have started playing TF too, but as i said before i m still not buying the current variation. It feels something is still missing. Perhaps if regular fireball was mid (or at least the ex version), or low fireballs had a faster start up, he would be solid, but as he is right now, i still believe its Goro's worst variation in general. Especially if they buff the start up of his low fireball, he will have some solid mix ups up close. F3xpw is something all Goro variations have. Imo his f3 and his other strings in general into low fireball should be a true blockstring.

You mentioned you are having meter management issues with KW. Actually Goro in general, has really good meter building with 121xxpw, f214xxpw. He builds half a bar of meter on block. F3xxpw is really good as well. You dont have to throw ex pw randomly now (except on a read or reaction), since you can enhance regular pw on hit. Thats huge.

Post edited.

 

[Metzos]

DF is the closest thing to Doomsday that I've played in this game.

Same thought as well. His pressure is insane, especially in the corner. 3d3 and 3bf2 in the corner is insanely good.

 

[Nuovo_Cabjoy]

snip

So what I've learnt today:

Goro has 3 viable variations, each of which are better or worse based on personal preference. Haha! I love it.

What's your typical post punch walk meta @Metzos? I like throwing out f3xxpunchwalk as much as the next guy but sometimes I'm not super confident in the correct play afterwards. I feel like I'm making hard reads sometimes that work out really well in my favour if I read correctly, but eat shit otherwise. Between their choice to reversal throw, crossover jump, njp, or just hit buttons, I'm finding it hard to safely make the right choice at times.

 

[Metzos]

So what I've learnt today:

Goro has 3 viable variations, each of which are better or worse based on personal preference. Haha! I love it.

What's your typical post punch walk meta @Metzos? I like throwing out f3xxpunchwalk as much as the next guy but sometimes I'm not super confident in the correct play afterwards. I feel like I'm making hard reads sometimes that work out really well in my favour if I read correctly, but eat shit otherwise. Between their choice to reversal throw, crossover jump, njp, or just hit buttons, I'm finding it hard to safely make the right choice at times.

Again, it depends. If i see my opponent is respecting my options after a blocked pw, then i stop respecting him. I usually do d1,d3xxpw again, plain d1 or d3, throw, ex SG or wait a bit, if they try to cross me up, boom, u1/u2 into a full combo punish. On the other hand, if my opponent likes to mash buttons after a blocked pw, then ex pw ftw. Like i have said before, a blocked pw by its own is a mix up, since its safe. Opponent needs to respect that if Goro has even one bar of meter. If you are out of meter than play defensively until you build enough meter to continue your pressure.

 

[MrSunshine]

Idk why the mind games behind GP isn't being looked at for what it is. But we'll just have our opinions on who's competent enough to punish or if it's our play style

 

[Mortal Komhat]

You mentioned you are having meter management issues with KW. Actually Goro in general, has really good meter building with 121xxpw, f214xxpw. He builds half a bar of meter on block. F3xxpw is really good as well. You dont have to throw ex pw randomly now (except on a read or reaction), since you can enhance regular pw on hit. Thats huge.

f214 is not something I'd toss out willy nilly - at 22f start up for f2, it can get blown up really fast for free.

At least, where I play it certainly wouldn't be an option.

 

[Nuovo_Cabjoy]

f214 is not something I'd toss out willy nilly - at 22f start up for f2, it can get blown up really fast for free.

At least, where I play it certainly wouldn't be an option.

I find f214 gets a lot of use against a cornered opponent who has no meter. If you just want to pressure and do chip, it'll catch both normal and delayed wakeups. It's quite nice tbh.

 

[Metzos]

f214 is not something I'd toss out willy nilly - at 22f start up for f2, it can get blown up really fast for free.

At least, where I play it certainly wouldn't be an option.

121 builds same meter as well. I just mentioned f214 as an additional another example. Pretty much all of his normal into pw build alot of meter on block.

 

[Mortal Komhat]

yeah - also don't discount d4 xx PW. Great reach and low if you want to check them at a distance.

 

[MrSunshine]

f214 does more chip but 121 builds the same meter

 

[migosan]

noob question,post patch across all of hisl variations, which are his best blockstrings that you can abuse that is plus and safe and builds good meter? for sure there would be a different one for dragon fangs, i'd really appreciate inputs, i'm torn between the 3 variations, all of them seem exciting to use

 

[Espio]

All parts of 1,2,1 are plus one/two on block. Back 1,2,1 is plus 2 on block. 2 and 2,1 are plus as well as 1,1. Try all three variations and see which you like best and for what match ups. It's mostly preference. If you like footsies, chip and zoning to compliment your pressure Tigrar is a good choice. Dragon Fangs feels the most like an old school big body character to me anyway. Kuatan has some good damage with quake set ups tacked onto combos as well as chest lunge for whiff punishing.

 

[Vintagesoul]

I recommend starting with KW or TF first then trying DF. DF may seem like the simplest version, but you won't truly appreciate its strengths until you've played one of the other two.

 

[Nuovo_Cabjoy]

Been messing with DF some more, I'm actually starting to like it more than the others... The extra range on d1 is great, the slightly greater damage on his bnbs, the option to mix in a low special are all great. It also feels like some of his bnbs feel easier to land possibly because of hitbox changes, and am I imagining things or is u2/u1 got a better hitbox as well? All in all really enjoying DF and plan on sticking with it for a while. @Vintagesoul I'm here to listen to all wisdom you have to offer.