Match-up Discussion Ermac Matchup chart by Metzos

[Metzos]

I don't think he exaggerates that he's good. But I do think his numbers (At least for my characters) aren't quite correct.

Well i never said he is beast or he can destroy everyone. I said he has the tools to win the majority of his MU's. With which of my numbers you dont agree ? I ll be glad to discuss it.

 

[Metzos]

4-6 for reptile explain. Ermac easily zones out reptile with his forceball it interrupts the dash and the SFB and FFB. The force push easily stops the dash. If anything it should be like 5-5 please elaborate

Well the main problem with Reptile is that he can close the gap between him and Ermac very fast and very safely with whiffed dashes. Also Ermac's forceballs dont compare with Reptile's acid spit in a fullscreen projectile war. If Reptile's forceballs are not punished with teleports he can lock down Ermac pretty easily and come to his face for pressure. Plus he is one of the very few to be able to punish his TKP with extreme ease. 5-5 in my opinion is out of the question. In the best case scenario i would go for a 5.5-4.5 in Reptile's favor.

 

[SunnyD]

Im not so sure on the Scorpion thing. Sure Ermac is a better zoner with the force push and fireballs, but once Scorp gets his vortex setup going it'll be hard for Ermac to get him off and into that range where Ermac shines. Force push cant punish that F4 , maybe B2 but even then its super risky online with lag and all. Scorpion's got Ermac beat at close range but everywhere else Ermac can fend him off. 5-5 matchup, maybe 5.5-4.5.

Question, how do you guys feel about the Cage - Ermac match-up? I dont have much experience vs Cage as Ermac, i usually pick Sub against him. Would it be a smart idea to go for Ermac instead?

 

[THTB]

I don't agree with the Reptile and Baraka matches, at least. Quan seems sketchy as well.

Reptile doesn't lock you down with forceballs if you don't jump and just dashblock in, unless he spends meter on it. Nobody is still exploiting exactly how slow forceball is. There's a reason why I've been saying for a long time Cage doesn't get destroyed by Reptile like everyone says he does...that's exactly what I mean.

 

[Metzos]

I don't agree with the Reptile and Baraka matches, at least. Quan seems sketchy as well.

Reptile doesn't lock you down with forceballs if you don't jump and just dashblock in, unless he spends meter on it. Nobody is still exploiting exactly how slow forceball is. There's a reason why I've been saying for a long time Cage doesn't get destroyed by Reptile like everyone says he does...that's exactly what I mean.

Well yeah thats why i said that if you dont punish the forceball with teleport or TKP, if you are in range, you are in trouble. Except if you mean to shut down Reptile's advance after he does forceball which is kinda risky in my opinion. I believe the best way to deal with it is by punishing it after he does it. Thats how i feel. About Baraka i updated the chart by putting the MU as even.


EDIT: About QC i explained it in a post above.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

After maaaany matches between me and Hidan we came to a conclusion that QC cant do anything against Ermac when in midscreen. In general QC has a very hard way breaking in Ermac's zoning area plus he cant punish TKP's at all outside of sweep range. Blocked trance can be punished from midscreen with dash to lift. Also TKP beats his skydrop, grabbing him from inside the ground if he tries to close the distance between him and Ermac.

This assessment gets the Mayo stamp of approval. This is 100% true.

 

[THTB]

Ah, I just read it. Yeah, that is true.

But yeah, you don't particularly have to stuff his forceballs. Getting in his way of safe elbows is enough, because at this range, he's only doing stuff if you push at all and he blocks. Otherwise, he's stuck slowly getting out of that range or trying to advance without getting hit.

Reptile struggles too hard at an area that Ermac is really solid at, despite the fact that he can punish Ermac for abusing it. Yes, Reptile can advance from fullscreen to mid, but getting in afterwards without getting smacked with shit is the hard part. And he can't win from range indefinitely.

 

[Metzos]

Ah, I just read it. Yeah, that is true.

But yeah, you don't particularly have to stuff his forceballs. Getting in his way of safe elbows is enough, because at this range, he's only doing stuff if you push at all and he blocks. Otherwise, he's stuck slowly getting out of that range or trying to advance without getting hit.

Reptile struggles too hard at an area that Ermac is really solid at, despite the fact that he can punish Ermac for abusing it. Yes, Reptile can advance from fullscreen to mid, but getting in afterwards without getting smacked with shit is the hard part. And he can't win from range indefinitely.

You have a point. BUT. Once you are at midscreen distance you automatically cut off my zoning capabilities against you cause of your ability to punish TKP's. The only thing i can do is simply dash back which will eventually lead me to the corner, which is bad for every zoner, or dash to pressure you or reset the fight with a throw which isnt very wise because of dash and slides too which means you have a 50/50 mix up there. I know it is risky but dont forget that both moves in that range are extremely fast and most probably i wont be able to block in time. At best i m giving it a 5.5-4.5 in Reptile's favor. Do you agree ?

 

[THTB]

I can agree with that. Outside of, like, early MK9, I never felt it was an uneven match, but 5.5-4.5 is probably the most it'd ever be in Reptile's favor.

 

[Metzos]

Im not so sure on the Scorpion thing. Sure Ermac is a better zoner with the force push and fireballs, but once Scorp gets his vortex setup going it'll be hard for Ermac to get him off and into that range where Ermac shines. Force push cant punish that F4 , maybe B2 but even then its super risky online with lag and all. Scorpion's got Ermac beat at close range but everywhere else Ermac can fend him off. 5-5 matchup, maybe 5.5-4.5.

Question, how do you guys feel about the Cage - Ermac match-up? I dont have much experience vs Cage as Ermac, i usually pick Sub against him. Would it be a smart idea to go for Ermac instead?

1st of all this MU chart is for offline matches only so leave online out of this plz. Secondly Scorpion's B2 can be punished with 31 to lift which leads to a 38% dmg combo. I m pretty sure that F4 alone is not safe also and if it isnt ofc you are not going to punish it with TKP.12 to lift or 31 to lift will do just fine. Up close Scorpions mixups are 50-50 which means if you are good with fuzzy guarding then Scorpion is screwed. Ofc he has his 11 string which on block can be pretty deadly too so i kinda agree with you on that.

About JC. In my opinion thats a 6-4 in Ermac's favor. JC needs bars to be able to break in Ermac's zoning area plus he cant punish max ranged TKP's with SK. If he gets in its rough for Ermac but not impossible to cut off his pressure. Also Ermac's throws reset the fight in Ermac's favor which means that JC must work his way in once again and when he does Ermac can mix it up from there if the JC player expects another throw. Also for close kombat Ermac's down pokes are very good also (d1,d3,d4). Punishing TKP's is risky cause if Ermac blocks SK JC is screwed not only because of the dmg but because of the combo ender too. 22 TKP which sends him at fullscreen again. Hope i helped m8.

 

[Metzos]

I can agree with that. Outside of, like, early MK9, I never felt it was an uneven match, but 5.5-4.5 is probably the most it'd ever be in Reptile's favor.

Cool i m glad we agree then. I also never thought that it was a very bad MU for Ermac too. My 6-4 in Reptile's favor opinion some way back doesnt mean that its a very bad MU for Ermac in my opinion. He just have to work really hard to win that MU. But still its one of his hardest MU's with Raiden and Kabal.

 

[Metzos]

MU chart updated.

 

[UsedForGlue]

Ermac would need pushback on regular TKP and armor on EX TKP to be ascend mid tier status.

Ermac could do with Armour on something, and it wouldn't work on his Force Lift as he could escape anything and bag big damage, at least if it was on his Force Push, he wouldn't grab massive damage along with you being pushed back to square one, so I would agree with Armour on his Force Push, but having push back on his special would be too much, Ermac has to space correctly with that move and therefor should be punished for spacing it wrong.

I know he has issues zoning Reptile and Nightwolf especially with his TKP because of no push back, but Ermac should be punished for spacing incorrectly.

I would agree with push back on Force Push against Nightwolf and Reptile, but it would destroy over half of the cast of players.

 

[UsedForGlue]

After maaaany matches between me and Hidan we came to a conclusion that QC cant do anything against Ermac when in midscreen. In general QC has a very hard way breaking in Ermac's zoning area plus he cant punish TKP's at all outside of sweep range. Blocked trance can be punished from midscreen with dash to lift. Also TKP beats his skydrop, grabbing him from inside the ground if he tries to close the distance between him and Ermac.

Wow man, Quan Chi is fucked against Ermac. Thanks for the reply dude.

 

[Metzos]

Ermac could do with Armour on something, and it wouldn't work on his Force Lift as he could escape anything and bag big damage, at least if it was on his Force Push, he wouldn't grab massive damage along with you being pushed back to square one, so I would agree with Armour on his Force Push, but having push back on his special would be too much, Ermac has to space correctly with that move and therefor should be punished for spacing it wrong.

I know he has issues zoning Reptile and Nightwolf especially with his TKP because of no push back, but Ermac should be punished for spacing incorrectly.

I would agree with push back on Force Push against Nightwolf and Reptile, but it would destroy over half of the cast of players.

If Ermac had pushback on a blocked TKP and armor on top of that he could destroy almost the entire roster, TKP would be much more difficult to punish plus the armor would allow him to escape pressure strings, and i would be a happy man. Plus he could just outzone everyone with chipped TKP's. But in my opinion he is fine as he is right now (at most parts at least).

 

[Metzos]

Wow man, Quan Chi is fucked against Ermac. Thanks for the reply dude.

Yep he is unfortunately. Np m8.

 

[Metzos]

MU chart updated

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I think it is pretty clear that Ermac loses to Kitana. SCR is perfect proof...

 

[smokey]

Yep he is unfortunately. Np m8.

Was playing quan vs a very good ermac, not only is my quan in need of some training, THIS MATCH IS IMPOSSIBLE.

Ermac has the upper hand in every situation , quans punishes are too slow, and the only meter ermac needs to use is for trolling or breaker. Every time i got in (which was very rare) ermac had the breaker to get me off him and i couldnt find a way to do any damage outside of chipping skulls, but even that is terrible.

I think quan is a very good character, but in some matches he does just get shit all over.

 

[Metzos]

I think it is pretty clear that Ermac loses to Kitana. SCR is perfect proof...

Link ?

 

[16 Bit]

Kitana cant punish TKP's when done in midscreen to fullscreen distance... Plz stop saying things that arent true. Also he can punish her d1 on block with lift. Hard i know but it can be done. The only way i can think of Kitana getting in on Ermac is square boost which as i said in a previous post isnt the safest way to get in.

Yeah technically you can punish d+1 with lift but it's like a just frame punish on a 6 frame move with like no block stun to prepare. If you're off you're fucked. I would have see this being done to believe it's a serious threat for her. That is some serious Jedi shit.


I don't know why Kitana supposedly only has ass to get in. Like I said, you dash block in to where blocking a tkp forces you to block her long range normals. Once that's established she can start getting in and throwing or whatever.

 

[Metzos]

Yeah technically you can punish d+1 with lift but it's like a just frame punish on a 6 frame move with like no block stun to prepare. If you're off you're fucked. I would have see this being done to believe it's a serious threat for her. That is some serious Jedi shit.


I don't know why Kitana supposedly only has ass to get in. Like I said, you dash block in to where blocking a tkp forces you to block her long range normals. Once that's established she can start getting in and throwing or whatever.

Yeah i agree with you but that doesnt mean that the MU is even or in her favor. About d1 yeah i know that you have to be master Yoda to do that but if you act quickly you can still punish it and thats the point.

 

[16 Bit]

Kitana doesn't go even because she can get in. She goes even because Ermac doesn't have exceptional tools for dealing with her once she does. I don't see his realistic answer to her footsies game or what he's going to do about f+2,1.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Feels to me like F21 in Kitanas footsie game is a weakness, that thing is so open on whiff its crazy, its not hard to make it whiff either. Obviously a good Kitana wouldnt throw it out without proper spacing, but you can still move back enough from it so that they cant throw it. Which leaves you right in Ermacs push range.

Her F21 range is shorter than Ermacs push range right?

Both characters seem to have the same weaknesses in their upclose game, except Ermacs throw is more beneficial to him than Kitanas is to her.


I only say this from playing both Metzos and good Kitanas.

 

[16 Bit]

Kitana's throw game is great I don't know what you're talking about. She can either toss you away or put you in ideal oki position. Her throw is her key mixup tool. Kitana players that aren't throwing all day are crazy.