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General/Other - Ermac Ermac General Discussion Thread

Enkindu

Noob
I wouldn't mind, if it's practical. Especially if there's plenty of distance between us. It's not that difficult to do on a joystick.
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
I'm not one for asking for buffs - and I know its the noob variation, but I really wish the damage scaling on Mystic's Tele-hang would relent just a little bit.

It's crazy to work to extend combos from long into really long ones for just a point or two more damage.

Do combos in Mystic and its 20-25%. Do basically same combos in MOS and its 40-49%.
 

Afumba

Noob
Agree with everything you said beside that noob variation argument you are throwing out. Although i would prefer a buff to tkp (making it more safe) and not a damage buff.
 

Dope Dojo

The Bomb Diggity
Mystic just needs more damage in general. I have to bust ass to get 30% and in MOS you get that easily. That, or TKP/Lift need to be less unsafe. No reason at all while moves that zone need to be -51 on block, FOH. But I've argued that point to death.
 

Icy Black Deep

Still training...
That isn't really building a lot of meter any single time you do it. And you'll have to stop as soon as your opponent starts moving.
If you're going to do that sort of thing I'd try instant-air soul blasts. I suspect the meter build is similar and at least you're putting out some active frames to make your opponent think twice about just smacking you in the face. (Unless they have a good projectile. Then you can't do any of this sort of thing.)
 

Afumba

Noob
Mystic just needs more damage in general. I have to bust ass to get 30% and in MOS you get that easily. That, or TKP/Lift need to be less unsafe. No reason at all while moves that zone need to be -51 on block, FOH. But I've argued that point to death.
Well i see it differently. Its not Mystic that doesnt do enough damage but lots of others that do too much. So i dont think he needs more damage.. he just needs a safer TKP. If they give us and safer TKP ~30 is more than enough as you could potentially compensate with keeping your opponent out long enough to make up for it.

Sadly we didnt cry enough to make them notice Ermac more.
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
Agree with everything you said beside that noob variation argument you are throwing out. Although i would prefer a buff to tkp (making it more safe) and not a damage buff.
The reason I say that is because you can just use Tele-hang and neutral jump 1 or 2 and uppercut for 17%. Then, you can down 1 into back 3 2 1 - or back 1 into 4 for mixups. Then, add in his forward 4 3 or 3 4 and the teleport - and you can punch above your weight class if you just play smart.

It was clearly created as the noob class. The supreme damage scaling applied to his Tele-Hang is proof.

We can easily imagine the damage the Tele-Hang could result in if it wasn't scaled. No bar for an extra string would be absolutely potent and make Mystic the natural choice for everyone - so I get the heavy scaling, but they overdid it - IMO.

I'm sure their reasoning was better be safe than sorry. Unviability, in their eyes, is much more preferable to broken.

It's clear they overdid it though, so fix it.
 
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fobley

Noob
I posted this message on another thread, but this one seems to be the more active of the two. If anybody could help me out, that would be really appreciated :)

Hello fellow Ermac-phrodites!

Kinda new to the site, don't post much if at all. But something of great importance is really bugging me, lol. How are we playing Ermac in the neutral?

I mean, sure yeah I throw out his safe strings, but after that, I just don't seem to maintain any pressure. With Kano, I can d4; KJ, I can throw out 1, 1s all day. It just seems that with Ermac, I kinda start second guessing my options after a safe string. As a result, I inadvertently end up playing Ermac as a whiff punisher even though I have all the tools to break them open. Any tips on his neutral game?
 

SEV

Noob
Not sure how many of you are using option selects in footsies/pressure yet, but I would highly recommend it as Ermac has one of the better OS's for footsies/pressure and the timing is super fluid:

B12xxDB4 DI(Directional Input) (4; optional)

On hit you'll always get the teleport for a full combo conversion, and on block you get stagger pressure; you can choose to complete the string, B124, by inputing the 4 to be at neutral frames or leave it at B12 for -3 by only inputting the DI.

Just figured I'd post this in here because I've been looking into applying OS's for pressure and I've noticed Ermac tournament players open people up with B12 in footsies often enough, going for stagger pressure, only to miss the hit confirm for a full combo. If this was known, my bad.
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
I posted this message on another thread, but this one seems to be the more active of the two. If anybody could help me out, that would be really appreciated :)
He has one of the best down 1's and one of the best down 3's, so start with that.
 

Enkindu

Noob
That isn't really building a lot of meter any single time you do it. And you'll have to stop as soon as your opponent starts moving.
If you're going to do that sort of thing I'd try instant-air soul blasts. I suspect the meter build is similar and at least you're putting out some active frames to make your opponent think twice about just smacking you in the face. (Unless they have a good projectile. Then you can't do any of this sort of thing.)

Hmm, don't all special moves give the same amount of meter? That's what I thought... However, it seemed to me, after a bit of practice, that you can execute Levitate quicker. Which would mean you'd build meter faster in the long run. I could be wrong though. Anyways, to evolve this a lil bit further, what do you think about doing: Levitate>>IAB? It'd definitely take some practice to do consistently, but getting double the meter in a matter of milliseconds would be most excellent. I cannot test how fast it can be done right now though so that's why I asked. It'll have to wait until the morning. Thanks guys for your insight.
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
i wouldnt put it like that... d1 fast start up (6) is compensated by almost full combo punishable -8 (?) on block.
It has range and pushes them back a little. A lot of guys struggle to punish it. If he's kind of new, he can use it to slow things down against opponents on and around his level.

Against better players, I use B1 D2 or B12 - Push - 4 when I want to slow things down.
 

fobley

Noob
Not really a new player, just a new-ish member on this site haha. Just trying to improve my neutral game with Ermac, I guess I have to start looking into option selects.

My fighting game background is Tekken and SFIII. They're mostly footsie-based, whereas the meta for MKX is mostly constant pressure and 50/50s. And so that is where my deficiencies come into play, because it's more rush-heavy than the prior two FGs that I've played. When I first picked up this game when it came out, I took to liking Kano. His d+3, d+4 and knives are incredible and so it fit my more subdued play style. But I started feeling out the metagame of MKX and how some of the cast had better options of opening people up and such. Basically bounced around from character to character, until I stumbled upon Ermac and fell in love with his aesthetics and his BnB's. I've done well holding up on my own so far, playing him as a whiff punisher, but it's too streaky a playstyle. Basically, I wanna be up close and personal, pressuring consistently with safe strings and not relying too much on expecting people to whiff to get my damage in.

Ugh, I'm so sorry for the long post. I appreciate all of your support and patience.
 

zaf

professor
Not sure how many of you are using option selects in footsies/pressure yet, but I would highly recommend it as Ermac has one of the better OS's for footsies/pressure and the timing is super fluid:

B12xxDB4 DI(Directional Input) (4; optional)

On hit you'll always get the teleport for a full combo conversion, and on block you get stagger pressure; you can choose to complete the string, B124, by inputing the 4 to be at neutral frames or leave it at B12 for -3 by only inputting the DI.

Just figured I'd post this in here because I've been looking into applying OS's for pressure and I've noticed Ermac tournament players open people up with B12 in footsies often enough, going for stagger pressure, only to miss the hit confirm for a full combo. If this was known, my bad.
I posted this in the Option select thread, but I will just copy paste it here.
This is why I find the B12 Option selects on block to be useless...

"You basically need the opponent to get hit with a B1 or with the second hit (2) for this to work.

- Hitting the opponent with B1 makes sense. You can hit them off a jump in, in footsies, whiff punish etc. From here it is not hard to hit confirm B12 ~ teleport.

- The point of the option select is to be able to convert off the 2 in B12. However, here is my main issue. Who is ever going to get hit by just the 2 ?
I mean, there is literally no reason for anyone you are playing with to get hit by the 2 in B12. There is no gap in between B1 and 2. The mix up with the string is B12 and B124 staggers. So if they really think you were just going to do 2 hits and stop and they wanted to interrupt you, then they would need to block the 2 anyways then press buttons.

So my problem here is that I really do not see a reason to learn this option select. If the B12 is blocked and the opponent is going to press, then the 4 in B124 comes out and not the teleport."

Not really a new player, just a new-ish member on this site haha. Just trying to improve my neutral game with Ermac, I guess I have to start looking into option selects.

My fighting game background is Tekken and SFIII. They're mostly footsie-based, whereas the meta for MKX is mostly constant pressure and 50/50s. And so that is where my deficiencies come into play, because it's more rush-heavy than the prior two FGs that I've played. When I first picked up this game when it came out, I took to liking Kano. His d+3, d+4 and knives are incredible and so it fit my more subdued play style. But I started feeling out the metagame of MKX and how some of the cast had better options of opening people up and such. Basically bounced around from character to character, until I stumbled upon Ermac and fell in love with his aesthetics and his BnB's. I've done well holding up on my own so far, playing him as a whiff punisher, but it's too streaky a playstyle. Basically, I wanna be up close and personal, pressuring consistently with safe strings and not relying too much on expecting people to whiff to get my damage in.
Ugh, I'm so sorry for the long post. I appreciate all of your support and patience.
Well his B12 is his main neutral string I would say. It advances him the most and is a "mid" ( although it does whiff some times)
Once you hit the opponent on block, you can stagger it and do it again. So it would be B12 right back into B12. To keep the opponent guessing, you can just do B124. You can mix in D1 and D3 in here. By doing B12 , D1/D3. This would be to poke someone who is going to press in between your stagger pressure. You can also use D1 and D3 after B124 to maintain pressure and stick on them. The pokes work better on hit obviously. So if your opponent just blocks after B124, in anticipation for a D1/D3, you can use this small pause in their game to go back into B124 once again. For people who are going to armor after B12 or B124, you can just use armor of your own. You will generally win the trade since you are absorbing their armor and hitting them second ( usually, and this depends on the armor used by the opponent.) You also do not have to always use B124 as your string however. You can mix it up into B12 stagger into 11. 11 starts as a high, but the 2nd and 3rd hits of the string are mids. It is also +2 on block. His pressure is all about conditioning and staggering, to stay on the opponent. Once you have them waiting for pokes, this is when you can mix in his 50/50 game. For example, like before when I mentioned completing the string B124 and the opponent waiting for a D1/D3, this could be a great time to go and hit them with the F4 as they were expecting something else.

Also, you can mix in D3 ( low) and instant air soul blast ( overhead) with your stagger pressure. It is a safe 50/50 that does not launch, but this is more used to condition and maintain pressure. So You can do B12 stagger into Iasb, on block you are +1-+2 roughly and on hit you are also + frames. D3 on hit you can pretty much go into whatever you want since you are +15, and on block you are only -6. So you won't be punished ( unless you play a cassie that can just frame punish with reversal flip kick)

Also in the neutral game, instant air soul blast is really good against advancing opponents. Against cassie, who have B1, the air soul blast is a good tool to stop them and regain the momentum of the match. Place yourself in a range where they can hit you on block with this and on reaction hit them with the soul blast.

D3 is also very solid in the neutral. Good range for a poke and it low profiles very well.

EDIT: Grabs!!! Don't forget to about throws too! They can be extremely strong in stagger pressure. B12 into throw or B124 into throw is strong. 1,1 or just 1 into throw is also good. It works well since your opponent is generally expecting to block a blockstring or a poke, you can take advantage of them trying to guess what you will do with a throw
 
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fobley

Noob
I posted this in the Option select thread, but I will just copy paste it here.
This is why I find the B12 Option selects on block to be useless...

"You basically need the opponent to get hit with a B1 or with the second hit (2) for this to work.

- Hitting the opponent with B1 makes sense. You can hit them off a jump in, in footsies, whiff punish etc. From here it is not hard to hit confirm B12 ~ teleport.

- The point of the option select is to be able to convert off the 2 in B12. However, here is my main issue. Who is ever going to get hit by just the 2 ?
I mean, there is literally no reason for anyone you are playing with to get hit by the 2 in B12. There is no gap in between B1 and 2. The mix up with the string is B12 and B124 staggers. So if they really think you were just going to do 2 hits and stop and they wanted to interrupt you, then they would need to block the 2 anyways then press buttons.

So my problem here is that I really do not see a reason to learn this option select. If the B12 is blocked and the opponent is going to press, then the 4 in B124 comes out and not the teleport."



Well his B12 is his main neutral string I would say. It advances him the most and is a "mid" ( although it does whiff some times)
Once you hit the opponent on block, you can stagger it and do it again. So it would be B12 right back into B12. To keep the opponent guessing, you can just do B124. You can mix in D1 and D3 in here. By doing B12 , D1/D3. This would be to poke someone who is going to press in between your stagger pressure. You can also use D1 and D3 after B124 to maintain pressure and stick on them. The pokes work better on hit obviously. So if your opponent just blocks after B124, in anticipation for a D1/D3, you can use this small pause in their game to go back into B124 once again. For people who are going to armor after B12 or B124, you can just use armor of your own. You will generally win the trade since you are absorbing their armor and hitting them second ( usually, and this depends on the armor used by the opponent.) You also do not have to always use B124 as your string however. You can mix it up into B12 stagger into 11. 11 starts as a high, but the 2nd and 3rd hits of the string are mids. It is also +2 on block. His pressure is all about conditioning and staggering, to stay on the opponent. Once you have them waiting for pokes, this is when you can mix in his 50/50 game. For example, like before when I mentioned completing the string B124 and the opponent waiting for a D1/D3, this could be a great time to go and hit them with the F4 as they were expecting something else.

Also, you can mix in D3 ( low) and instant air soul blast ( overhead) with your stagger pressure. It is a safe 50/50 that does not launch, but this is more used to condition and maintain pressure. So You can do B12 stagger into Iasb, on block you are +1-+2 roughly and on hit you are also + frames. D3 on hit you can pretty much go into whatever you want since you are +15, and on block you are only -6. So you won't be punished ( unless you play a cassie that can just frame punish with reversal flip kick)

Also in the neutral game, instant air soul blast is really good against advancing opponents. Against cassie, who have B1, the air soul blast is a good tool to stop them and regain the momentum of the match. Place yourself in a range where they can hit you on block with this and on reaction hit them with the soul blast.

D3 is also very solid in the neutral. Good range for a poke and it low profiles very well.
Oh my stars! Thank you so much for the very detailed response. Turns out I am doing SOME things right after all. I've been poking with his d3 after a b124, but it had not occurred to me to stagger it with a b12 though. I have to start using IASB more often--my usage is highly sporadic at best and not as a pressure tool.

One aspect of Ermac's game I'm finding moderate success in is his vortex. Most of the time, I can reset it once (I don't push my luck in attempting the second reset) and land another 38-40% on top of the first combo. Is this something that we usually go for?
 

zaf

professor
Oh my stars! Thank you so much for the very detailed response. Turns out I am doing SOME things right after all. I've been poking with his d3 after a b124, but it had not occurred to me to stagger it with a b12 though. I have to start using IASB more often--my usage is highly sporadic at best and not as a pressure tool.

One aspect of Ermac's game I'm finding moderate success in is his vortex. Most of the time, I can reset it once (I don't push my luck in attempting the second reset) and land another 38-40% on top of the first combo. Is this something that we usually go for?
Going for the vortex is more of a player preference, as well as match up dependent I believe.

When you have the life and meter lead, there is not really a "need" to go for the vortex. If they guess right and block your 50/50, you could end up in a bad situation. However it is perfectly fine to end the combo in soul ball and just continue to pressure. You don't "HAVE" to go for the 50/50 every time. Having them in the soul ball and continuing your pressure, eliminates their wake up game and just lets you stay on top of them.

When you are behind in life and need to make a comeback, this is where the vortex really shines.
At the moment, I don't think there is a right answer to this question... It is more about preference.
 

zaf

professor
@zaf isn't b12 -3 on block? When I go for b12 IAB most opponents just d1 or d3 me out of the jump.
Pretty sure it is -2

Might be that you are doing it too high up and needs to be lower...
It is possible that the opponents are just poke happy and have a fast poke too.
You will need to condition them to not press after B12.... Try using more B124.

Also, if you want to take a risk ( it is more of a read then anything)... but if you know the opponent will poke you after your B12, then try going into B12~ soul ball. It does work...

What you can also do is.... Do B12 and then just block. You will block their poke and they will now be - frames. You can go right back into pressure here and if they were pressing after their poke, you will usually end up hitting them

@fobley Can't believe I forgot to include this in my story book up above, but....

Doing B12 and B124 into block is actually pretty important to do. Very helpful to open people up.
You basically bait them into poking by giving them a free invitation and then punish them for this.
Good players will catch on to what you are making them do, and then just start going right into a string after B12. This is where you can go back into B124 or B12 D1/D3. It is all mind games.

You basically do B12 or B124 and just crouch block, in anticipation for the opponent to do a D1 or D3.
As soon as you block their poke, you go right into a string. Something like 222 works very well here.
You will end up getting a hit a lot of the time. This works for 2 reasons

- the opponent was pressing a string of their own after you blocked their poke. When you block their poke, they are - frames. Take ermac for example, blocking his poke puts him at -10. If someone is at -10 and then goes into a string like 111 ( 10 frames of start up)... Then there is actually a 20 frame gap in between their poke and their string. This is more then enough time to hit them out and punish them into full combo.

- Their poke is - frames enough to the point of where you can actually punish.