End of 2015 MKX Tier list - UK Edition

[Phosferrax]

@SaltShaker I honestly don't know where to begin.

He has some of the biggest corner carry in the game, so essentially whenever you hit someone you but them in the corner, giving you access to neutral at worst, meterless 50/50's that do over 40%. You add in his launching armour, his great footsies and his good projectile and you get a character that absolutely deserves to be in the same tier as the characters that also have problems but are also great. BS Shinnok and Jax aren't duper super dirty but they're very good just like CT Kano.

I'm hearing "oh but what about those 50% combos midscreen" which is just pure misdirection. First of all, you can't just walk up and 50/50 unless you're playing scrubs

You say this as if he doesn't do 30% meterless from a safe advancing 12f mid, or 37ish% for a bar. You say this as if all he can do is run in an do a 50/50 because his footsies are bad when in reality they're great.

Second, you need to spend meter on block for the plus frames and for the EX Buff (no one lets you just buff midscreen and walk up to them)

You say this as if you have to spend meter. If they block a 50/50 you're either 0 or +1... how is that not filthy? You say that as if he can't do anything else but block. It's a ridiculous mindset.

Third, when you land the 50/50 you spend another bar for around a 43% midscreen combo (he has no real meterless combos outside of F2). 4th you lose up to 15% health in the process. So not in theory, but in practice you will perform optimal combos/setups of a total of 2 bars for around 43ish%, while losing 15% health to pressure, or stop it at 7% health but give up all pressure and Oki options post knockdown. So say you do a practical F2 on block into presssure, here are the actual numbers behind this-

-String on block, spend a bar, guy who doesn't know the MU presses buttons and you land combo with another bar, pressure their KD. 2 total bars, 43% damage, lose 15% health. 28% life damage value.

-String on block, spend a bar, guy who knows the MU doesn't push buttons and blocks 50/50, you're safe. Lost a bar. Or even worse, he armors through non B121 strings and combo'd you.

-String on block, spend a bar, land combo with another bar, cancel EX Buff to stop health loss. 2 total bars, 43% damage, 7% health loss. 36% life damage value while having lost all post KD pressure and oki options.

The idea that CT's damage output is counted in a damage deficit is flawed. The idea of using ex buff for go-to +frames or hit confirms is also flawed and outdated. Ex buff is for when you want to kill someone, or option select wake up in the corner.

It seems you're focusing on + frames and ex buff as your reasons for him not being dirty, when you seem to be neglecting or intentionally downplaying how incredibly stupid his corner game/corner carry is, as well as how incredibly ridiculous having a completely safe 50/50 in general is. His meter game and his jump arc are his only weaknesses.

Then there's the fact that his meterless combos don't exist outside of F2

And what does Takeda/Jax/Kotal/Shinnok do without meter? It's the exact same.

he needs to be +on block to set up anything that revolves around his 50/50, no meterless pressure for a full blown pressure character

Any time you block something that you can't punish, you can 50/50. Any time you have knocked down the opponent you have set up a 50/50. Anytime you hit an opponent with a poke you have set up a 50/50. Just because the opponent has some options doesn't mean you haven't set up a 50/50, it just means you have to make a read in a situation where your options are better than theirs. God help you.

his Buff goes away on hit even the EX when most characters don't suffer from this

You were complaining that when he combos someone after EX Buff he is doing damage to himself, now you're complaining that the buff stops when he gets hit so his opponent doesn't do even more damage to him? What? You're using the ex buff the wrong way.

his Ball Special's have the priority of a cotton ball

Air ball has huge priority. Straight ball and up ball do not, but their ex versions make up for the meterless short comings.

his chip damage itself is balls especially meterless that doesn't exist

He does meterless safe 50/50's and you're complaining about chip damage? Buff throw does 15%, and buffed strings into ex knives does good chip, but I suppose that's not good enough because you can't get it whenever you want. This isn't anywhere near a problem for this character.

his meter building is balls yet he relies solely on meter to even breathe

This is one of his two weaknesses, and when their in the corner (which is very often against CT) it is a non-issue.

whiffing issues get you punished

Yes, whiffing things get you punished If they consistently whiff then why do you use them when he has alternatives?

his jump normals are ass

His second weakness, but when you've got a good ground game it really isn't an issue.

his Cutt AA's outside of uppercut are ass, etc etc etc.

His uppercut is one of the better in the game, yet you still want something better?


I see very few legitimate weaknesses with this character, and I can only assume that you've either let the absolute top tiers spoil your perception or alternatively you simply aren't good/efficient enough with CT to see results.

How you can't see the comparison with the characters in the similar tier is beyond me. If you had labbed them as extensively as you presumably have with Kano, you would no doubt see the weaknesses in their own gameplay. To think a character with CT's abilities and toolset is 'honest' is ludicrous.

 

[God Confirm]

First off, to the people waiting inline to counter every comment that disagrees, with "it's just an opinion bro" that's great, so is what I'm about to say. Also just an opinion.


And that is, that this list is the worst tier list I've seen to date. I watched the most video and gave the character positions I was skeptical on an extra listen pretty open to accepting difference in opinions. But damn it just felt like it was full of misinformation, not even something I "disagree" with but rather stuff I just see is wrong


For example: Sub's position is a little bit difference to most tier lists including my own, but I was willing to accept it as a difference in opinion, UNTIL I listened to the case you guys made in the explanation.
No, B33 doesn't break armour, only B2 does this, there is no way of describing this other than flat wrong. No, he doesn't have 50% meterless off the low, especially off any set-up that allows him to B2 armor break. On top of that, you guys describe it like thats what his low starter does in the corner. No, it does that in the corner after an F12 ender into Clone into immediate B33 oki, other than that the Clone disappears or is not set-up. Plus, most midscreen combos need the 123 slide ender to finish up in the corner, this generally means you need to get in twice in a row to get a shatter set-up, then if you get the next 50/50 before the Clone breaks you get around 45% off your shatters, so just saying he has 50% meterless safe low starter is BEYOND misleading and is treading into the territory of deliberate misrepresentation.. No, you do NOT automatically lose the game against Sub in the corner, and the fact that you guys have this mentality kinda of explains the placing a little. If he gets a Clone set-up, it guarantees him a 50/50, it's just an extremely high damage vortex (against MOST characters) with 3 options to start it, 1 of which is very low damage and 2 of which are punishable on read the third one can be punishable too if it wasn't done off a Shatter set-up, and 2 of which are fully armourable. Block the overhead all but like 5 characters can punish it, the ones that can't definitely get all the way out. Block the B33xxShatter and yes it might be safe due to pushback, but you are still around 10 frames plus against him with Clone down and on cool down as wel - it's officially your turn even if Sub does still have options. You guys didn't even mention the best thing about his corner game that makes it so unique and strong, which is throw into Clone (its more than a 50/50!), but read the throw and you are out with an uppercut at the very least. Sub can be a hell of a threat - but this placing and tacked on explanation full of reaching logic, misrepresentations and just straight misinformation screams to me that its more about the opening statement you guys had, aka "Madzin stomps our S+ tier Tremor/Kung Lao/Quan Chi with Sub Zero all the time, and this is the best way to justify it!".


Cassies explanation - "shes great but everything she has isn't quite good enough" and then the example of her B1 was used, "her greatest strengths are her greatest weakness, B1 for example is a great button but suffers because it's minus on block."
Huh? Seriously, wtf? Who else has a button as good as this and is plus on block? She gets a stagger mix-up off it, the stagger mix-up being -6 meaning she has TONS of options left even not to mention a fully safe launching counterpoke, or she can end the string and she actually IS plus. So what the hell? Then asking, what the hell even compares to this let alone outclasses it so heavily? Reptile who is comparable but slower, needs to spend meter to be plus AND to combo, and is lower tier than Cassie? Kotal gets a stagger mix-up off it I guess but still doesn't have the options Cassie does, there is just no comparison. Check the high tier 50/50 gods (Jax, DVorah, Reptile) she's the hardest hitting of the lot, she gets massive damage returns for spending meter that she builds off her awesome blockstring, she has the best fullscreen game of the lot, she is simply a class above them as has been pretty well established by now, and the very poor illogical explanation you guys gave didn't do much to convince me otherwise.


There is MUCH more like this but this wall of text is long enough already I think, Mileena and Kano are ridiculous though, and I'm not someone who buys into the "Mileena garbage tier" narrative.


Regardless, I've been a big K&M fan and will continue to be, however I'd be lying if I said some of their RESPONSES in this thread didn't make me lose a little bit of respect for them. Yes, you guys are entitled to your opinion - but so is everyone else.

@buyacushun

 

[SaltShaker]

I think a part of the disconnect is you thinking I believe Cuttthroat is ass. I never once said that, clearly said it's his best variation, and this it's about right below the high tier. A+ is too high when looking at the non Mileena characters there.

And again, I know his strengths. There's no point in me mentioning his "godlike corner carry" for example if you and I both already know that. I know everything he does well, I just don't feel it's as good as a whole as what other characters do as a whole. I'll quote the parts I disagree with since we both already know what he can do.

You say this as if you have to spend meter. If they block a 50/50 you're either 0 or +1... how is that not filthy? You say that as if he can't do anything else but block. It's a ridiculous mindset.

Good point, but a safe 50/50 doesn't make a character high tier or top tier. I don't consider that dirty in the context of the game. It's the character as a whole. Enter Jacqui. In a vacuum it may appear dirty, but really isnt unless you consider just the basis of a safe 50/50 "dirty" on principle. His 50/50 one of the main cores of his offense so if it was unsafe he'd be a crappy version of Ermac. Almost every 50/50 character has either a safe one or a way to make it safe. "Dirty" is something extra on top of it like Quan looping you into crazy damage or Tremor's Crystal Shield or Sorceror's chip damage. Those types of things I consider "dirty". But yes, the 50/50 is one of the best in the game if you can space yourself close enough.

The idea that CT's damage output is counted in a damage deficit is flawed. The idea of using ex buff for go-to +frames or hit confirms is also flawed and outdated. Ex buff is for when you want to kill someone, or option select wake up in the corner.

Highly, highly disagree here. If you aren't doing EX Buff on block then what are you doing? He can't set up anything midscreen on block without EX Buff or EX Knives. Stuff like "oh let me B31 on block" is week 1 crap that doesn't fly once people know the MU. EX Buff works the best because it's more consistent but also drains too much health. If you have a better on block tool than EX Buff I'm definitely listening. You also mentioned earlier F2 meterless combos, but it's literally the only way he can do anything meterless midscreen. Other, better characters don't suffer from this.

And what does Takeda/Jax/Kotal/Shinnok do without meter? It's the exact same.

Jax has a non EX +7 projectile on block that he can use for mixups and throws, BS Shinnok has a vortex restand that doesn't require a bar to do that leads to many options. Takeda can get heavy plus frames on Kunai hit and also be plus on block from them to set up offense.

Any time you block something that you can't punish, you can 50/50. Any time you have knocked down the opponent you have set up a 50/50. Anytime you hit an opponent with a poke you have set up a 50/50. Just because the opponent has some options doesn't mean you haven't set up a 50/50, it just means you have to make a read in a situation where your options are better than theirs. God help you.

About the on block part. That's not correct. MU Exp. That was cool at first, but B1 range is too short. Block something and people can block low and blow you up for trying to close space for the OH. You aren't blocking say, Johnny's D4 and getting a free 50/50. Maybe back in May, but not these days. You only have a 50/50 on block when people don't know the MU. On hit yes there are many setups, but that's no different than everyone else. Also about making reads, most of the cast has to make plenty of them to be played well.

You were complaining that when he combos someone after EX Buff he is doing damage to himself, now you're complaining that the buff stops when he gets hit so his opponent doesn't do even more damage to him? What? You're using the ex buff the wrong way.

How are you hitting 43-44% midscreen without Buff? Unless you just settle for the mid 30% non buff combos which is an option, but then that's limiting. And I'm not complaining that it stops when he gets hit, I'm complaining EX Buff shouldn't lose health at all like it did not for 5 months, and was changed even though a single person never conplained. It makes no sense that EX Buff loses health but does the same damage as the regular after the last patch.

Air ball has huge priority. Straight ball and up ball do not, but their ex versions make up for the meterless short comings.

Quite a few other characters don't need shortcomings to be made up to begin with. Something like UpBall for example should be a clean AA special like other characters can do on reaction, not getting Jip1 out of it for full combo conversion.

He does meterless safe 50/50's and you're complaining about chip damage? Buff throw does 15%, and buffed strings into ex knives does good chip, but I suppose that's not good enough because you can't get it whenever you want. This isn't anywhere near a problem for this character.

He can't combo off his 50/50 meterless. D'Vorah can. His chip is weak unless EX Knives as you just said. D'Vorah laughs. He has no high plus frames without meter. D'Vorah laughs harder. Etc. In this category she stomps him in every way, in many actually, so to me yea it is a problem because he's inferior. To say "he is fine" is one thing, but to say "here he is as good as D'Vorah" I highly disagree. Obviously I can switch to a better character which I did, but it just made me see how much better she is than him, and others as well.

His uppercut is one of the better in the game, yet you still want something better?

Yea why not? His uppercut is one of the better ones, and D'Vorah's is one of the best, and she's still much better with AA conversions than him. I would surely like something better, that's been my point. Sorry I keep comparing D'Vorah, but she's the most I'm familiar with in that tier alongside Kano.

I see very few legitimate weaknesses with this character, and I can only assume that you've either let the absolute top tiers spoil your perception or alternatively you simply aren't good/efficient enough with CT to see results.

This is possible. D'Vorah is a spoiler. I've played fairly well against high level players offline and dominated non high level players ever since the switch. Prior to that, I was getting my ass handed to me 2-3 times a week when I played top players and doing "pretty good" against non. Partially me improving, but partially the character. Maybe he just wasn't for me all along, or maybe my huge improvements came with time and it was coincidence. Maybe a little of both. Impossible to tell. But it would be a heavy coincidence to switch a character I mained Day 1, and under two weeks time have that much of a change.

How you can't see the comparison with the characters in the similar tier is beyond me. If you had labbed them as extensively as you presumably have with Kano, you would no doubt see the weaknesses in their own gameplay. To think a character with CT's abilities and toolset is 'honest' is ludicrous.

I can specifically speak on D'Vorah and Kano more than the others, and I just don't see it. Side by side I don't at least. She literally does nearly everything he does better than him, uses half the meter he does, has better pressure, better pokes, better air normals, better advancing normals, better AA, better setups, the +frame projectiles, etc etc etc. I can run them down, but she does. And I'm the absolute last person to up play as we know, but D'Vorah is elite in this game. The one and only thing she lacks is a good armor'd move and even that isn't too slow.

As much as I hate to admit it, I would place D'Vorah better than Sub and Predator but here she is below them. That's coming from me of all people lol. So I'm not being biased or downplaying, I just don't see it at all.

 

[SaltShaker]

I think a part of the disconnect is you thinking I believe Cuttthroat is ass. I never once said that, clearly said it's his best variation, and this it's about right below the high tier. A+ is too high when looking at the non Mileena characters there.

And again, I know his strengths. There's no point in me mentioning his "godlike corner carry" for example if you and I both already know that. I know everything he does well, I just don't feel it's as good as a whole as what other characters do as a whole. I'll quote the parts I disagree with since we both already know what he can do.



Good point, but a safe 50/50 doesn't make a character high tier or top tier. I don't consider that dirty in the context of the game. It's the character as a whole. Enter Jacqui. In a vacuum it may appear dirty, but really isnt unless you consider just the basis of a safe 50/50 "dirty" on principle. His 50/50 one of the main cores of his offense so if it was unsafe he'd be a crappy version of Ermac. Almost every 50/50 character has either a safe one or a way to make it safe. "Dirty" is something extra on top of it like Quan looping you into crazy damage or Tremor's Crystal Shield or Sorceror's chip damage. Those types of things I consider "dirty". But yes, the 50/50 is one of the best in the game if you can space yourself close enough.



Highly, highly disagree here. If you aren't doing EX Buff on block then what are you doing? He can't set up anything midscreen on block without EX Buff or EX Knives. Stuff like "oh let me B31 on block" is week 1 crap that doesn't fly once people know the MU. EX Buff works the best because it's more consistent but also drains too much health. If you have a better on block tool than EX Buff I'm definitely listening. You also mentioned earlier F2 meterless combos, but it's literally the only way he can do anything meterless midscreen. Other, better characters don't suffer from this.



Jax has a non EX +7 projectile on block that he can use for mixups and throws, BS Shinnok has a vortex restand that doesn't require a bar to do that leads to many options. Takeda can get heavy plus frames on Kunai hit and also be plus on block from them to set up offense.



About the on block part. That's not correct. MU Exp. That was cool at first, but B1 range is too short. Block something and people can block low and blow you up for trying to close space for the OH. You aren't blocking say, Johnny's D4 and getting a free 50/50. Maybe back in May, but not these days. You only have a 50/50 on block when people don't know the MU. On hit yes there are many setups, but that's no different than everyone else. Also about making reads, most of the cast has to make plenty of them to be played well.



How are you hitting 43-44% midscreen without Buff? Unless you just settle for the mid 30% non buff combos which is an option, but then that's limiting. And I'm not complaining that it stops when he gets hit, I'm complaining EX Buff shouldn't lose health at all like it did not for 5 months, and was changed even though a single person never conplained. It makes no sense that EX Buff loses health but does the same damage as the regular after the last patch.



Quite a few other characters don't need shortcomings to be made up to begin with. Something like UpBall for example should be a clean AA special like other characters can do on reaction, not getting Jip1 out of it for full combo conversion.



He can't combo off his 50/50 meterless. D'Vorah can. His chip is weak unless EX Knives as you just said. D'Vorah laughs. He has no high plus frames without meter. D'Vorah laughs harder. Etc. In this category she stomps him in every way, in many actually, so to me yea it is a problem because he's inferior. To say "he is fine" is one thing, but to say "here he is as good as D'Vorah" I highly disagree. Obviously I can switch to a better character which I did, but it just made me see how much better she is than him, and others as well.



Yea why not? His uppercut is one of the better ones, and D'Vorah's is one of the best, and she's still much better with AA conversions than him. I would surely like something better, that's been my point. Sorry I keep comparing D'Vorah, but she's the most I'm familiar with in that tier alongside Kano.




This is possible. D'Vorah is a spoiler. I've played fairly well against high level players offline and dominated non high level players ever since the switch. Prior to that, I was getting my ass handed to me 2-3 times a week when I played top players and doing "pretty good" against non. Partially me improving, but partially the character. Maybe he just wasn't for me all along, or maybe my huge improvements came with time and it was coincidence. Maybe a little of both. Impossible to tell. But it would be a heavy coincidence to switch a character I mained Day 1, and under two weeks time have that much of a change.



I can specifically speak on D'Vorah and Kano more than the others, and I just don't see it. Side by side I don't at least. She literally does nearly everything he does better than him, uses half the meter he does, has better pressure, better pokes, better air normals, better advancing normals, better AA, better setups, the +frame projectiles, etc etc etc. I can run them down, but she does. And I'm the absolute last person to up play as we know, but D'Vorah is elite in this game. The one and only thing she lacks is a good armor'd move and even that isn't too slow.

As much as I hate to admit it, I would place D'Vorah better than Sub and Predator but here she is below them. That's coming from me of all people lol. So I'm not being biased or downplaying, I just don't see it at all.

@Phosferrax I messed up the tag in my response.

 

[God Confirm]

@SaltShaker why is Cutthroat better than Cybernetic? I don't play much Kano so just wondering

 

[SaltShaker]

@SaltShaker why is Cutthroat better than Cybernetic? I don't play much Kano so just wondering

Both are good variations (Commando being the only one that actually sucks). Most people consider Cutthroat the best and a smaller few think Cyber is best. Cutthroat plays MKX better, and has almost as good footsies as Cyber with more in it's toolset. Other than their shared tools, in Cutt you have-

-A safe combo starting 50/50. Unreactable. You can set it up off of things like S2 on hit RC, F4, even D4 RC if you mix it up with other things. Play smart and keep them guessing and he has an amazing 50/50.

-Wall Carry of the Gods. From slightly before midscreen you can do a combo off almost all strings for about 2% less of the standard BnB but place them in the corner ending in Kano ball. Then the corner game.

-Speaking of corner game. It's one of the best. Top 3 in the game. I can write a book on the setups in the corner. Mixups, damage, the grab reset, so much here. If you don't kill your opponent in the corner when you get them there, you probably did something wrong.

-DB1. Safe-ish far reaching special move that combos on EX. On regular hit in can lead to some great mind games. Deceptive range and 95% safe. So good. Much better than Cyber DB1 which is simply a combo filler.

-Regular knives are still good. People talk a lot about Cyber knives but they're overrated imo. Especially in certain MUs. Cutt Knives are +9 on block and helps with pressure. They aren't amazing in zoning but they are suitable enough to fight it off until you find a way in. Cyber knives give you some bill ass zoning.

-Cutt oki is better. Way better. Like night and day level of difference.

-etc

There are other reasons, but these are some of the main ones. Cyber has the all purpose almighty B1, mid knives, meterless combos from any string. But it isn't enough to make it better than Cutthroat.

 

[Law Hero]

Are people really going to start upplaying Mileena and Kano with these tier lists before the new KP2 patches?

How many times must these two characters get nerfed before people are happy?

 

[Goat-City]

I don't think Warlock is S tier by your list's standards. If S tier is definitively overpowered then Warlock isn't when compared to the rest. His zoning isn't great, it's very standard and very punishable on a whiff. His counter zoning is great, but again, if portal kick whiffs it can be punished heavily on a run in. He has no good long range pokes, his meter dependency is high but he doesn't gain it as easily as the other 2 variations, and his portal slam reversal is good but you don't have to block it to punish it, just jump over it and get a combo during the recovery or NJK it after a knockdown in the corner; that's a huge drawback in my opinion.

The portal stab can be used as an anti-crossup tool but only on males with slow enough jumps. His damage is good but he has no block pressure, his 50/50s are unsafe without the EX rune, but other characters have completely safe 50/50s for free. Yeah they're plus too for a bar, but you can't go for another 50/50 afterwards if your opponent has a bar since they can OS a reversal while blocking low. If they don't have the bar then you can go for another 50/50, but you have to spend a second bar to make it safe still. There's literally nothing I could say should be nerfed about him, he's practically perfect and there's no way he's better than most of the characters on your A+ list. Kotal is just as good and so is Kitana, Takeda, Shinnok, Reptile, Jax, Dvorah, Sonya, possibly Sub Zero and probably Erron Black.

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

Hell sparks can be jumped, like I said, give it some time and people will be whiff punishing them on reaction. I'm already starting to do it. That will drop the notion that people believe his space control is amazing, turning one of his biggest strengths into a big weakness is a problem.

His d4 is good but nothing special, and even though ex sparks are +14 nothing's guaranteed unless it's from 112 hell sparks, which isn't a common situation.

Erron Black struggles because he has no good mids, and can't really stop people from jumping backwards in certain ranges. Because he has no mids, it means you can often full combo punish him for trying 21122, which them limits him to coming in with d4, or f1, and it's risky for him to just throw out f1 in neutral.

Sub isn't gimmicks lol, I'm pretty certain nobody on the planet has as much sub experience as me, it's clearly the match I've invested the most effort into figuring out every little nuance. You play against ALL of the top sub players and tell me that his corner game is reactable, especially when they throw off their timing.

Also, about things destroying the clone, that's on the sub player to be smart about using it.

1. A good sub will never do an unsafe clone cancel
2. You're not destroying the clone after he knocks you down in the corner
3. If you're committed to destroying the clone, you're opening yourself up, there's no 2 ways about it, any time you want to break the clone you're essentially risking being taken to the corner.


Predator is no way better than Liu, Liu Kang is basically tempest Lao with better zoning and worse reach, other than his b2.

You also said predator has good advancing mids, which isn't true because he has none. Yeah he's good at zoning. But Liu has more than just that.

About Mileenas 11f mid and other characters having 8f moves, they have to throw out the 8f move on a read that the Mileena player won't just walk back, bait it and whiff punish. Nobody has an advancing 8f mid to contest with that, except maybe Shinnok, which can still be whiff punished.
If somebody has to commit to a Backdash, that's their disadvantage because they're doing a read that they risk being full combined for, just because Mileenas +3? It's a game of respect that Mileena establishes.
Sais are punishable, but don't do them point blank, thought that's kinda obvious? The straight sai is enough, she doesn't really have to use the low one.

You're a good man, denom jones.

 

[God Confirm]

I'd usually say that something like this shouldn't be held against an entire scene, but given that it was a joint projecct from three of the most recognisable UK players, this list really isn't doing their image any favors

 

[DOOMSDAY-15RUS-]

I liked commentary about Jacqui and Jason really what I think about them.
I agree with most of chars here but I absolutly desagree with SONYA, this old ugly bitch is killing my mind in all 3 variations, I should be very very patient against her (yeah I don't play S+ but I can still judge), her dive kick whiff recover just no comment.

As Kano player online I have some trouble to fight chars like Goro and Kenshi zonning

 

[SaltShaker]

As Kano player online I have some trouble to fight chars like Goro and Kenshi zonning

Which variation of Kano are you using? Which variation gives you trouble? Not sure how it is online but you shouldn't be having trouble in these MUs, especially Kenshi.

 

[DOOMSDAY-15RUS-]

Which variation of Kano are you using? Which variation gives you trouble? Not sure how it is online but you shouldn't be having trouble in these MUs, especially Kenshi.

goro is not to hard, just fear his punchwalk ex especially after his blocked normal punchwalk because ex has infinite armor. Kenshi is harder, to get close and when i finally do it this guy has good armors compare to quan chi and knock me back to full screen again. I use all variations, favorite cutthroat but against Kenshi I think I should use cybernetic

 

[SaltShaker]

goro is not to hard, just fear his punchwalk ex especially after his blocked normal punchwalk because ex has infinite armor. Kenshi is harder, to get close and when i finally do it this guy has good armors compare to quan chi and knock me back to full screen again. I use all variations, favorite cutthroat but against Kenshi I think I should use cybernetic

I have a good amount of exp in these MUs. I'll tag you in the MU Discussion tomorrow. They both shouldn't be hard MUs.

 

[DOOMSDAY-15RUS-]

I have a good amount of exp in these MUs. I'll tag you in the MU Discussion tomorrow. They both shouldn't be hard MUs.

are u plaing kkano? some general tips for me how to do with impostor teleport, gm clone and sonya dive kick whiff super recover? all time i see she whiffs try to punish and she already punish me

 

[Tweedy]

This obviously isn't directed at all of you, but break up your blocks of text into smaller paragraphs, homies. I'd like to read more stuff. I just can't, hurts my eyes lol.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

You're a good man, denom jones.

That doesn't mean you can't still kick people's digital ass with him still

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

I'd usually say that something like this shouldn't be held against an entire scene, but given that it was a joint projecct from three of the most recognisable UK players, this list really isn't doing their image any favors

Or perhaps we have better representation for the characters we believe to be good.

Out of any player on the planet, I'm the most versed currently, obviously it's still down to opinion, but our reasoning is there, whereas any counter arguments haven't really had any facts to fall back on. (On characters like Sub, Liu, Mileena, which coincidently, we currently have the most experience against.)

 

[God Confirm]

Out of any player on the planet, I'm the most versed currently

ok

obviously it's still down to opinion, but our reasoning is there, whereas any counter arguments haven't really had any facts to fall back on. (On characters like Sub, Liu, Mileena, which coincidently, we currently have the most experience against.)

I posted a full paragraph countering your entire "argument" for Subs placing which was just flat wrong and you just promptly ignored it, I don't see how you can expect to just say you have the most "experience" and think that it overrule all counter arguments even (or especially) the ones pointing out the FACTUAL errors in the video's reasoning. Especially since you also don't have the most experience with the character, unless that word means something new now, I'm not up on all this forum's buzzwords.

 

[PND_Ketchup]

ok


I posted a full paragraph countering your entire "argument" for Subs placing which was just flat wrong and you just promptly ignored it, I don't see how you can expect to just say you have the most "experience" and think that it overrule all counter arguments even (or especially) the ones pointing out the FACTUAL errors in the video's reasoning. Especially since you also don't have the most experience with the character, unless that word means something new now, I'm not up on all this forum's buzzwords.

You mean Sub Zero? Who Foxy plays against every single day because of Madzin?

 

[Eldriken]

You mean Sub Zero? Who Foxy plays against every single day because of Madzin?

Hearty morning laugh = achieved.

 

[God Confirm]

You mean Sub Zero? Who Foxy plays against every single day because of Madzin?

it still doesn't make you guys the most experienced in those characters, playing against madzin or any other character every day is still MUCH less experience than pretty much any random Sub-Zero, Mileena or Liu Kang main who actually play as said character for even longer everyday in both every single match up and all their labbing. Nevermind comparing your experience to someone like Tom Brady. Or does experience mean something different nowadays?

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

First off, to the people waiting inline to counter every comment that disagrees, with "it's just an opinion bro" that's great, so is what I'm about to say. Also just an opinion.


And that is, that this list is the worst tier list I've seen to date. I watched the most video and gave the character positions I was skeptical on an extra listen pretty open to accepting difference in opinions. But damn it just felt like it was full of misinformation, not even something I "disagree" with but rather stuff I just see is wrong


For example: Sub's position is a little bit difference to most tier lists including my own, but I was willing to accept it as a difference in opinion, UNTIL I listened to the case you guys made in the explanation.
No, B33 doesn't break armour, only B2 does this, there is no way of describing this other than flat wrong. No, he doesn't have 50% meterless off the low, especially off any set-up that allows him to B2 armor break. On top of that, you guys describe it like thats what his low starter does in the corner. No, it does that in the corner after an F12 ender into Clone into immediate B33 oki, other than that the Clone disappears or is not set-up. Plus, most midscreen combos need the 123 slide ender to finish up in the corner, this generally means you need to get in twice in a row to get a shatter set-up, then if you get the next 50/50 before the Clone breaks you get around 45% off your shatters, so just saying he has 50% meterless safe low starter is BEYOND misleading and is treading into the territory of deliberate misrepresentation.. No, you do NOT automatically lose the game against Sub in the corner, and the fact that you guys have this mentality kinda of explains the placing a little. If he gets a Clone set-up, it guarantees him a 50/50, it's just an extremely high damage vortex (against MOST characters) with 3 options to start it, 1 of which is very low damage and 2 of which are punishable on read the third one can be punishable too if it wasn't done off a Shatter set-up, and 2 of which are fully armourable. Block the overhead all but like 5 characters can punish it, the ones that can't definitely get all the way out. Block the B33xxShatter and yes it might be safe due to pushback, but you are still around 10 frames plus against him with Clone down and on cool down as wel - it's officially your turn even if Sub does still have options. You guys didn't even mention the best thing about his corner game that makes it so unique and strong, which is throw into Clone (its more than a 50/50!), but read the throw and you are out with an uppercut at the very least. Sub can be a hell of a threat - but this placing and tacked on explanation full of reaching logic, misrepresentations and just straight misinformation screams to me that its more about the opening statement you guys had, aka "Madzin stomps our S+ tier Tremor/Kung Lao/Quan Chi with Sub Zero all the time, and this is the best way to justify it!".


Cassies explanation - "shes great but everything she has isn't quite good enough" and then the example of her B1 was used, "her greatest strengths are her greatest weakness, B1 for example is a great button but suffers because it's minus on block."
Huh? Seriously, wtf? Who else has a button as good as this and is plus on block? She gets a stagger mix-up off it, the stagger mix-up being -6 meaning she has TONS of options left even not to mention a fully safe launching counterpoke, or she can end the string and she actually IS plus. So what the hell? Then asking, what the hell even compares to this let alone outclasses it so heavily? Reptile who is comparable but slower, needs to spend meter to be plus AND to combo, and is lower tier than Cassie? Kotal gets a stagger mix-up off it I guess but still doesn't have the options Cassie does, there is just no comparison. Check the high tier 50/50 gods (Jax, DVorah, Reptile) she's the hardest hitting of the lot, she gets massive damage returns for spending meter that she builds off her awesome blockstring, she has the best fullscreen game of the lot, she is simply a class above them as has been pretty well established by now, and the very poor illogical explanation you guys gave didn't do much to convince me otherwise.


There is MUCH more like this but this wall of text is long enough already I think, Mileena and Kano are ridiculous though, and I'm not someone who buys into the "Mileena garbage tier" narrative.


Regardless, I've been a big K&M fan and will continue to be, however I'd be lying if I said some of their RESPONSES in this thread didn't make me lose a little bit of respect for them. Yes, you guys are entitled to your opinion - but so is everyone else.

@buyacushun

First off I'll start with the Cassie explanation you wrote, which against alot of characters is totally wrong, the ONLY reason any Cassie could get a 'stagger mix up' while being -6, is due to the opponent letting them do it. Most characters have a way of stopping her doing anything else after that string, -6 is enough, she's pretty much limited to either blocking, or ex flipkicking, or spending the bar for ex gunshots.

For example, whats stopping a Mileena player from doing B12 every time they block Cassies B12?
See what I'm getting at here, biggest strength, biggest weakness, she has range but she gives up her turn to do it.

She may be + at the end of B124, but why would you even care about getting hit by the 4? Considering one of her problems is stamina, just take the 4 and she has to chase you again to stay in.

The 4 in that string is literally so neglegable.

Compare that to a string like Jax's F2, or Mileenas B12, or even Laos F2, I dont think theres any contest. Other strings have similar or the same range, and are advantage, or less negative AND give more damage. Perhaps reasons like these are the why we have different view points. Because mine actually work within the rules of the game, when played technically sound. There is no stagger.

And on the sub thing, he gets 40+ on both his overhead and low in the corner, I say 2 wrong guesses, becauase by the time you're cornered, you're gonna have lost some health already, and the remaining life usually doesnt have to come from a guess.

He may be minus after the shatter, but the pushback might as well make him neutral, because the space you have to cover to get to him, you're already sacrificing the frames you just got from blocking, I thought that was kinda obvious? You even commented on it... so again, its essentially a micro neutral game where he cant clone for a second, but if you want to get near him or out of the corner he still has multiple ways to keep you there.

The throw into clone isnt the best thing about his corner game, and it doesn't make it 'more than a 5050' because if youre gonna get thrown you always tech with 1. IMO the best thing about his corner game is the threat of it itself. You dont need to immediately use your clone set up on max damage. People get twitchy behind the clone, and thats usually a good way to kill them by punishing them for trying to do stupid shit.


But sorry, wtf do I know? I'm just spreading 'misinformation'
Perhaps I should adopt your school of thinking, cause mine clearly fails. You may have lost respect for K&M or whatever, but I dont have to follow their little code of politeness, dont give me this passive aggressive bullshit for a list on the internet.

And yeah, like Ketchup was saying, PLEASE find me a player with more Sub Zero experience than me.

 

[JDE]

She doesn't have to lay anything on the line. Piercing B12 is one of the better strings in this game.

Like we said, Mileena is only as risky as you make her, she has excellent moves for conditioning the opponent, reasonable zoning in her ground sai, counter zoning with ball roll and telekick, or even low sai if she can get under the projectile.

Meterless anti air with ball roll.

She ticks a lot of boxes, and THEN you can add her risky side on top of it in a situation where it make sense.

Oh yeah and also her corner restand game is pretty rediculous too LBSH.

I had been telling other Mileena players that she looked bad on paper, but she was actually harder to deal with than what I a lot of lead on. I just wasn't expecting her to be placed as a high, but when I heard y'all's comments, it made more sense.

At 1st ,I thought she would be like around mid tier at best. I do feel like Scorpion is in the middle of A, but his safety sets him back along with his D1 being -9.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

I had been telling other Mileena players that she looked bad on paper, but she was actually harder to deal with than what I a lot of lead on. I just wasn't expecting her to be placed as a high, but when I heard y'all's comments, it made more sense.

At 1st ,I thought she would be like around mid tier at best. I do feel like Scorpion is in the middle of A, but his safety sets him back along with his D1 being -9.

I suppose it doesnt really help for the development of a character when quite a bit of their frame data in game menus is wrong, or that certain moves may be -10 lets say, but the animation keeps her safe.