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End of 2015 MKX Tier list - UK Edition

EMPEROR_KNICKS

EMPEROR_KNICKS

Master of Kombat(frauds)
A F0xy Grampa said:
It's not about auto piloting, you gotta look at it assuming the match is played by 2 robots.

Besides, you can't auto pilot with Lao and win, and if you are, they're clearly not better opponents.

Jax always has first option of attack after you block his shit, in this game his rush down is identical to Wonder Woman in injustice (which was dumb as fuck). I am the one that thinks him and Cage should be swapped.

People still thinking Shinnok is so amazing should learn to whiff punish hell sparks, if you take away the sparks he's pretty limited as a character. He really lacks damage (except for matchup specific imposter matches), his methods of opening you up are fuzziable even with the delay.

Sub is top tier because you can technically outplay him the whole round, get put in the corner and die in 2 wrong guesses. Although his midscreen game lacks, it's all designed to push you to the corner in 1 touch.

No character is truly safe against sub when they're cornered. Even characters with options are still limited.


Kung Jin I wouldn't put in A, I'd say A+ For the reasons MiT put.

And the whole Mileena situation, I'm convinced since you lot lost saltface, there's been nobody to actually develop the character (and play the character with full application of theory) to show how good she is, until usedforglue.

People just write her off for no reason other than 'she's unsafe when she does rolls and teleports, and unsafe 5050s', well then, try playing her safe? Considering she has an 11f mid that's + on block, by itself that's rather harassing to a lot of characters. Her walkspeed makes this string do more for her. These 2 things give her an mk9-esque footsie game in that she can easily bait and whiff punish certain reactions from the opponent as a result of blocking the string.

I'd say she's better than Erron for sure, you don't have to respect Erron in the neutral at all, Erron is actually more unsafe than Mileena.

Also, to those who say Liu Kang has slow pokes, that's because he needs slow pokes, it'd be too much to have a 6f low poke that's + on hit for him to start his bs, I explained the way the character works. All it means is that Liu players have to block a single poke, then it's their turn and they get a lot more out of blocking something than most, or they can f1 their way out of staggers cause fuck it he's got a 6f high.

Personally I see no way Lao and Liu can't be in similar placement in MKX because their game plan is so similar.
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Shinnok is amazing, he has one of the best d4s in the game, and if you pop them they are plus 14, you cant jump on shinnok, he has amazing space control, and he can basically whiff punish you from full screen, he has a 7 frame low, he has advancing mids, a good hitbox, good movement,all he really lacks is damage but he basically has everything else. Sub is not top tier, because alot of his stuff is gimicky his mixups are reactable, and plenty of shit in this game destroys ice clones easy, he has amazing corner game, and a good d4, but everything else is decent, or slightly below average, Mileena while i dont think is trash is not above sonya or erron, her 11 frame mid doesn't really harass the cast, everyone in this game, has some sort of 8 frame or faster move, it can also be backdashed, and low profiled, playing her safe wont get you very far, as her whole deal is to mix you up, sorta like hit and run, her sais are really punishable, her mixups do low damage, and playing her safe like i said wont get you far, as i play many solid mileenas, and when they try to play it a little more safe, they get blown up. Erron by the way, all though you can armore through his stuff, he has mixups that are safe with a bar otherwise, he does good damage into a hard knockdown, that breaks armor, he has that 21122, which is a mindfuck. You have to know when they are gonna do that command grab, it does good chip, builds good meter, his d4 on hit is plus 20, etc so imo i think erron is better. Also although i think liu is great, he isnt S plus or at least not top 5, as these charachters, Lao,Tanya,Quan,Predator,Shinnok, are all better. The first 3 you guys already put so, Predator is better because he has argubably the best zoning in the game, he also has plus cancels, mixups, good damage, good advancing mids, smartdiscs, no recovery lasers, a full screen low laser, the longest d4 in the game, a good d3, also predator only lacks wakeups options but has good range and can whiff punish stuff along with shinnok as well. Shinnok i put above. Liu lacks because his space controls isnt as good as pred and Shinnok, which both have decent pressure, great spacecontrol, good pokes, and besides pressure have a better overall charachter than liu.
 
Dankster Morgan

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
A F0xy Grampa said:
Kano in CT has

12f advancing mid, unreactable 5050s, good projectile, good d4, safe armour reversal, good damage, reasonable anti airs, advantage off of ex knife toss and a boarder line stupid corner game.

He's pretty much a better (safer) version of Sonya.
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Phosferrax said:
Add launching armour, top tier corner carry and 0/+1 on block 50/50.
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Top 1-3 backdash and probably the best forward dash
 
SaltShaker

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
EntropicByDesign said:
Agreed. I just haven't had a chance to sit down and type up what I know will (d)evolve into a book by the time I'm done.

It's not a bad list, but some of the underlying logic for the choices is odd.

Did I also hear mentioned that Kano can do 50% mid-screen for THREE bars like that was a good thing? Doesn't he also have to ex-buff for that 50%? (I legit am asking , I think so but not 100% sure). I mean, 3 bars and 10-15% of your life for 50% midscreen from a character that requires a bar of meter just to choose at character selection, when, just as an example, Kotal can get low 40's to high 40's for a bar in SG (depending on choke lv) Ermac gets 41% +/- for NOTHING, Jax pulls 40%+ for a bar, hell Takeda can do low 40's for a bar midscreen, etc etc.

I'm not saying these are all the same thing, but touting the ability to do 50% damage for your entire stock of meter and (if buff is used) 15% of your health on a character that absolutely needs meter for EVERYTHING, is not the kind of tool that I'd brag about, nor use to argue his higher-than-it-should-be tier placement. Just my opinion of course, but when I hear things like that I start to feel like you're bending facts and options around opinions instead of opinions around facts and options.

Also, I listened to the whole video. I don't understand why tourny placement is used to explain some placings but conveniently ignored in some others. Jax being an example. I main him now and he's S. Everything points to S. Even if you feel Tremor out Jax's Jax, Jax himself still out Jax's most/all of a+ Tier and has there been a tournament ever where one of 'the' Jax players was in attendance and didn't place quite well?
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You already know I agree with you. I listened to the video also. I had a huge post to write about some things said and some things left out, but stopped halfway through and just erased it. I've said it too many times. You can spin it and make Jason and Kenshi sound top tier if you want to the way Mileena and Kano are apparently borderline Top 10 level characters lol. I'm inclined to let people believe what they want at this point and watch the same characters keep being used and placing in the process. I'll just patiently wait and bump threads in the summer/fall 2016 for some laughs like the Grundy guys did back in Injustice while using a far superior character.

D'Vorah life is a good life these days with literally zero complaints from me, so at this point I hope Kano gets nerfed because he's clearly too strong. Matter fact nerf Kano because if the top tier gets nerfed down then he'll be easily Top 10, borderline Top 5 right? Can't have that bro. Leave D'Vorah alone. Nerf Kano. This is my new stance.
 
A F0xy Grampa

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
EMPEROR_KNICKS said:
Shinnok is amazing, he has one of the best d4s in the game, and if you pop them they are plus 14, you cant jump on shinnok, he has amazing space control, and he can basically whiff punish you from full screen, he has a 7 frame low, he has advancing mids, a good hitbox, good movement,all he really lacks is damage but he basically has everything else. Sub is not top tier, because alot of his stuff is gimicky his mixups are reactable, and plenty of shit in this game destroys ice clones easy, he has amazing corner game, and a good d4, but everything else is decent, or slightly below average, Mileena while i dont think is trash is not above sonya or erron, her 11 frame mid doesn't really harass the cast, everyone in this game, has some sort of 8 frame or faster move, it can also be backdashed, and low profiled, playing her safe wont get you very far, as her whole deal is to mix you up, sorta like hit and run, her sais are really punishable, her mixups do low damage, and playing her safe like i said wont get you far, as i play many solid mileenas, and when they try to play it a little more safe, they get blown up. Erron by the way, all though you can armore through his stuff, he has mixups that are safe with a bar otherwise, he does good damage into a hard knockdown, that breaks armor, he has that 21122, which is a mindfuck. You have to know when they are gonna do that command grab, it does good chip, builds good meter, his d4 on hit is plus 20, etc so imo i think erron is better. Also although i think liu is great, he isnt S plus or at least not top 5, as these charachters, Lao,Tanya,Quan,Predator,Shinnok, are all better. The first 3 you guys already put so, Predator is better because he has argubably the best zoning in the game, he also has plus cancels, mixups, good damage, good advancing mids, smartdiscs, no recovery lasers, a full screen low laser, the longest d4 in the game, a good d3, also predator only lacks wakeups options but has good range and can whiff punish stuff along with shinnok as well. Shinnok i put above. Liu lacks because his space controls isnt as good as pred and Shinnok, which both have decent pressure, great spacecontrol, good pokes, and besides pressure have a better overall charachter than liu.
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Hell sparks can be jumped, like I said, give it some time and people will be whiff punishing them on reaction. I'm already starting to do it. That will drop the notion that people believe his space control is amazing, turning one of his biggest strengths into a big weakness is a problem.

His d4 is good but nothing special, and even though ex sparks are +14 nothing's guaranteed unless it's from 112 hell sparks, which isn't a common situation.

Erron Black struggles because he has no good mids, and can't really stop people from jumping backwards in certain ranges. Because he has no mids, it means you can often full combo punish him for trying 21122, which them limits him to coming in with d4, or f1, and it's risky for him to just throw out f1 in neutral.

Sub isn't gimmicks lol, I'm pretty certain nobody on the planet has as much sub experience as me, it's clearly the match I've invested the most effort into figuring out every little nuance. You play against ALL of the top sub players and tell me that his corner game is reactable, especially when they throw off their timing.

Also, about things destroying the clone, that's on the sub player to be smart about using it.

1. A good sub will never do an unsafe clone cancel
2. You're not destroying the clone after he knocks you down in the corner
3. If you're committed to destroying the clone, you're opening yourself up, there's no 2 ways about it, any time you want to break the clone you're essentially risking being taken to the corner.


Predator is no way better than Liu, Liu Kang is basically tempest Lao with better zoning and worse reach, other than his b2.

You also said predator has good advancing mids, which isn't true because he has none. Yeah he's good at zoning. But Liu has more than just that.

About Mileenas 11f mid and other characters having 8f moves, they have to throw out the 8f move on a read that the Mileena player won't just walk back, bait it and whiff punish. Nobody has an advancing 8f mid to contest with that, except maybe Shinnok, which can still be whiff punished.
If somebody has to commit to a Backdash, that's their disadvantage because they're doing a read that they risk being full combined for, just because Mileenas +3? It's a game of respect that Mileena establishes.
Sais are punishable, but don't do them point blank, thought that's kinda obvious? The straight sai is enough, she doesn't really have to use the low one.
 
ArmedCalf

ArmedCalf

I guess I play Necromancer now.. PSN: ArmedCalf
TSS Terror said:
Also, people are sleeping on shotgun Jacqui.
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Shotgun is dope and I do think Jacqui is a bit low honestly, but their points are bang on. She has Shazam's arms - but truthfully I think she needs it. If she had range combined with her current frame data she'd be insane.
 
EntropicByDesign

EntropicByDesign

It's all so very confusing.
SaltShaker said:
You already know I agree with you. I listened to the video also. I had a huge post to write about some things said and some things left out, but stopped halfway through and just erased it. I've said it too many times. You can spin it and make Jason and Kenshi sound top tier if you want to the way Mileena and Kano are apparently borderline Top 10 level characters lol. I'm inclined to let people believe what they want at this point and watch the same characters keep being used and placing in the process. I'll just patiently wait and bump threads in the summer/fall 2016 for some laughs like the Grundy guys did back in Injustice while using a far superior character.

D'Vorah life is a good life these days with literally zero complaints from me, so at this point I hope Kano gets nerfed because he's clearly too strong. Matter fact nerf Kano because if the top tier gets nerfed down then he'll be easily Top 10, borderline Top 5 right? Can't have that bro. Leave D'Vorah alone. Nerf Kano. This is my new stance.
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Yep.

I'm enjoying the hell out of punching people in the face with a giant, metal-armed black dude then telling them they ain't bad.

ZERO regrets with Jax except that I didn't buy a ticket on this pain train earlier.
 
UsedForGlue

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
Phosferrax said:
Kitana got buffed to fuck though.

I reckon Sonya, Erron, Sub, Scorpion, maybe Milenna and Jacqui are placed incorrectly.

Can't listen to the video right now, so I may reconsider after listening.

I will say that there isn't good enough rep for some of these characters (Erron, Sonya, Jacqui) in the UK which is no doubt colouring opinions.
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Both me and Jim play Erron Black, we know what his major weaknesses are.
 
UsedForGlue

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
Ns_Brutalmileena said:
unsafe as fuck, bad pokes, and meter for over head. You are the sheeps if you can't watch saltface, gab, and used for glue as much as I love them get away with murder. Let's hold her back cause you TOP players can't punish basic shit.

Like I said WATCH there way to the top, and WATCH the crimes they get away with I'm done don't expect a reply.

Count sonics unpunished tele kicks and rolls its a fucking joke
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Moves going unpunished against Mileena is something to expect if you are using the character right and flustering the opponent. More often than not, most opponents are either constantly holding B12, terrified to leave the ground, taking low sai's until they do something stupid, being tele dropped for a projectile, or afraid to pressure her on wake up when a match really matters, when that is being established, things will go unpunished some of the time, that is to be expected vs human opponents outside of online FT20's.

Bad pokes? Even if her pokes were terrible, so what? Everyone in this game carries an 8 frame move and it doesn't have to come in the shape of a poke, so I don't understand why a character having a fast D1 or D3 is the be all and end all of a character... pokes in this game are centred on way too much. If the opponent pokes you, don't poke back, use your mids, in which her B1 is brilliant, or use the roll on a read or gap, other than that, the poke is redundant. (Piercing)

Unsafe? This can be said for any character, Kung Lao in theory is unsafe if you constantly throw out MB spins...this character is as unsafe as the player that uses her. Her F34(4) is incredibly easy hit confirm and you don't have to go overhead afterwards, it takes a certain amount of conditioning, and that goes for F44 while its down to the opponent to punish your 21U4 on block. You are not forced to constantly roll or throw out MB overheads if you can't open the opponent up conventionally, those are your choices to make.

Infact...everyone should be lucky we didn't place her higher.
 
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UsedForGlue

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
A F0xy Grampa said:
Erron Black struggles because he has no good mids, and can't really stop people from jumping backwards in certain ranges. Because he has no mids, it means you can often full combo punish him for trying 21122, which them limits him to coming in with d4, or f1, and it's risky for him to just throw out f1 in neutral.

About Mileenas 11f mid and other characters having 8f moves, they have to throw out the 8f move on a read that the Mileena player won't just walk back, bait it and whiff punish. Nobody has an advancing 8f mid to contest with that, except maybe Shinnok, which can still be whiff punished.
If somebody has to commit to a Backdash, that's their disadvantage because they're doing a read that they risk being full combined for, just because Mileenas +3? It's a game of respect that Mileena establishes.
Sais are punishable, but don't do them point blank, thought that's kinda obvious? The straight sai is enough, she doesn't really have to use the low one.
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This.
 
Phosferrax

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
UsedForGlue said:
Both me and Jim play Erron Black, we know what his major weaknesses are.
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The whole 'no mids thing' for one is an over exaggeration, and it hasn't stopped Tremor or to a lesser extend, Kung Lao from being great. Not stating Erron is as good as them, but it's an example.

You have Scorpion and him in the same tier. Scorpion is a character who genuinely suffers from his lack of good mids, and Erron is a character who kind of has to deal with the problem but has ways around it. I agree that there is a weakness there regarding his average start-up mids, but I can't agree that it drags him so far down that he is in the same tier as Scorpion.
 
UsedForGlue

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
Phosferrax said:
The whole 'no mids thing' for one is an over exaggeration, and it hasn't stopped Tremor or to a lesser extend, Kung Lao from being great. Not stating Erron is as good as them, but it's an example.

You have Scorpion and him in the same tier. Scorpion is a character who genuinely suffers from his lack of good mids, and Erron is a character who kind of has to deal with the problem but has ways around it. I agree that there is a weakness there regarding his average start-up mids, but I can't agree that it drags him so far down that he is in the same tier as Scorpion.
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Tremor commands some respect mid screen, especially with air ground pounds and the close rock shower. I wouldn't compare those two characters.
 
BillStickers

BillStickers

Do not touch me again.
UsedForGlue said:
Moves going unpunished against Mileena is something to expect if you are using the character right and flustering the opponent. More often than not, most opponents are either constantly holding B12, terrified to leave the ground, taking low sai's until they do something stupid, being tele dropped for a projectile, or afraid to pressure her on wake up when a match really matters, when that is being established, things will go unpunished some of the time, that is to be expected vs human opponents outside of online FT20's.

Bad pokes? Even if her pokes were terrible, so what? Everyone in this game carries an 8 frame move and it doesn't have to come in the shape of a poke, so I don't understand why a character having a fast D1 or D3 is the be all and end all of a character... pokes in this game are centred on way too much. If the opponent pokes you, don't poke back, use your mids, in which her B1 is brilliant, or use the roll on a read or gap, other than that, the poke is redundant. (Piercing)

Unsafe? This can be said for any character, Kung Lao in theory is unsafe if you constantly throw out MB spins...this character is as unsafe as the player that uses her. Her F34(4) is incredibly easy hit confirm and you don't have to go overhead afterwards, it takes a certain amount of conditioning, and that goes for F44 while its down to the opponent to punish your 21U4 on block. You are not forced to constantly roll or throw out MB overheads if you can't open the opponent up conventionally, those are your choices to make.

Infact...everyone should be lucky we didn't place her higher.
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Lmfao please put Mileena in S+
 
Jolt

Jolt

Uprise
UsedForGlue said:
Man, I wanted to put her higher, but people are already raging hard enough with her placement as it is.
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So, looking at the UK tier list you wanted to put her up to S tier? Effectively, saying....that you think she's top 10? I just want to make sure that's what I'm reading. Or does your personal top 10 reflect differently from this list?
 
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