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General/Other - D'Vorah D'Vorah General Discussion Thread

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
Just started playing D'Vorah last night. I was shock to see how fun she was. I really am enjoying her playstyle and I am thinking about maining her. I know it is earlier but from experience what should I focus on to become effective with her?
Wasp cancels.

Go to practice, set opponent to block random kombo in settings, and then practice doing f11 df1 ff+Block f11 df1 ff+block. Then after you get that start practicing cancels off of f22, d4, b1, d1, etc. You should also practice mixing up your pressure by doing f11 df1 ff+block into either throw, f22 or b1.

Also practice doing f22 df1 ff+block 212 swarm vortex njp f44 db4, 30% meterless combo. You can also do it off of f11 or b1.
 

skumz

...
Wasp cancels.

Go to practice, set opponent to block random kombo in settings, and then practice doing f11 df1 ff+Block f11 df1 ff+block. Then after you get that start practicing cancels off of f22, d4, b1, d1, etc. You should also practice mixing up your pressure by doing f11 df1 ff+block into either throw, f22 or b1.

Also practice doing f22 df1 ff+block 212 swarm vortex njp f44 db4, 30% meterless combo. You can also do it off of f11 or b1.
Thanks! I will be doing this tonight.
 

Krackatoa

BEES? BEES!
Thanks! I will be doing this tonight.
Just to note, the run cancel window on block is later than on hit. So you have to hit-confirm the correct run cancel window.

If you aim for a late run cancel timing, one that works on hit and on block, you won't be able to combo on hit.
 

chemist4hire

I Got Guiled
Just to note, the run cancel window on block is later than on hit. So you have to hit-confirm the correct run cancel window.

If you aim for a late run cancel timing, one that works on hit and on block, you won't be able to combo on hit.
I don't know if its muscle memory or not, but I find that if you input the string cleanly, the cpu picks the correct cancel window for you. All you have to do is notice if the first hit is connects or is blocked and react accordingly when wasp grenade comes out.
 

Krackatoa

BEES? BEES!
I don't know if its muscle memory or not, but I find that if you input the string cleanly, the cpu picks the correct cancel window for you. All you have to do is notice if the first hit is connects or is blocked and react accordingly when wasp grenade comes out.
Wasp Grenade is run cancellable on frame 1 (Or close to frame 1). If you buffer dash before Wasp Grenade enters start up, it unbuffers. This means if you're aiming to hit the on-hit run cancel window cleanly, you will not run cancel on block. You won't get any Wasp Grenade at all.
 

Take$$$

gotta take it to make it
Wasp Grenade is run cancellable on frame 1 (Or close to frame 1). If you buffer dash before Wasp Grenade enters start up, it unbuffers. This means if you're aiming to hit the on-hit run cancel window cleanly, you will not run cancel on block. You won't get any Wasp Grenade at all.
The thing is you don't need to hit the window cleanly to consistently hit the WC combos, so waiting for the grenade to come out visually or react to it by sound is perfectly viable. On f22 you have a larger window than you think, and b1 wcs even have a small window where you can hold the grenade and still hit the combo.
 

skumz

...
Just to note, the run cancel window on block is later than on hit. So you have to hit-confirm the correct run cancel window.

If you aim for a late run cancel timing, one that works on hit and on block, you won't be able to combo on hit.
Thanks
 

Krackatoa

BEES? BEES!
The thing is you don't need to hit the window cleanly to consistently hit the WC combos, so waiting for the grenade to come out visually or react to it by sound is perfectly viable. On f22 you have a larger window than you think, and b1 wcs even have a small window where you can hold the grenade and still hit the combo.
There may be a small window where you can dash at the same time, every time, but the window is going to be VERY small, and it gets smaller as your time to buffer dash grows.

You cannot possibly confirm the b1 RC window, unless b1 lacks the same shifted cancel window of every normal in the game. You need to buffer Dash ASAP after Wasp Grenade reaches startup.
 

Take$$$

gotta take it to make it
There may be a small window where you can dash at the same time, every time, but the window is going to be VERY small, and it gets smaller as your time to buffer dash grows.

You cannot possibly confirm the b1 RC window, unless b1 lacks the same shifted cancel window of every normal in the game. You need to buffer Dash ASAP after Wasp Grenade reaches startup.
The f22 window is pretty big man, you can hold the grenade/run for a while.

B1 you can run on visual reaction and/or sound to the wasp grenade. You don't need to buffer anything. I don't even touch forward until I know its coming out.
 

Take$$$

gotta take it to make it
If you want to combo from b1, you can't.
But it happens when you think b1 will hit and it doesnt, since you try to buffer a dash during the startup frames of df1.

To make what I mean clearer, you don't need to buffer a dash on the startup frames. You can input ff+block when the animation is finished, so you get the cancel 100% of the time to combo on hit and get a safe 21 block.
 

chemist4hire

I Got Guiled
@Krackatoa What is your gamplay setup? Are you using dedicated ps4 controllers/sticks and lagless monitors. Much of what you are saying about the cancel window and run cancel window being small makes much more sense to me if you are experiencing lag. I did a little experiment this weekend at a local tournament, where my opponent was using a ps3 stick and I was using a ps4 stick. We were playing on the Evo monitors. I went into practice mode and selected the same character as my opponent. At point blank range I hit the same attack (standing 1) on both sticks simultaneously. In theory, the attacks should trade, but thats not what happened. The ps4 stick beat out the ps3 stick every time. This is because the Lab zero driver is processing the ps3 signal to be read by the ps4 and is introducing a small amount of input lag in the process. Input lag will make cancel windows seem smaller than they actually are, and can make you think that you can buffer dash cancels in places where you cant. If you are not playing on a laggy setup, then maybe we just have different execution / reaction times.
 
@Krackatoa The ps4 stick beat out the ps3 stick every time. This is because the Lab zero driver is processing the ps3 signal to be read by the ps4 and is introducing a small amount of input lag in the process. Input lag will make cancel windows seem smaller than they actually are, and can make you think that you can buffer dash cancels in places where you cant.
Well damn, I didn't know this... I'm playing on a hitbox I bought for MK9 on ps3... I wonder if I should try playing on gamepad
 

chemist4hire

I Got Guiled
Well damn, I didn't know this... I'm playing on a hitbox I bought for MK9 on ps3... I wonder if I should try playing on gamepad
Some others have noticed this too.
http://testyourmight.com/threads/question-for-stick-users.50112/#post-1702306

I have a TE2 now and have tested it out. When Im in training with two humans. I would press Square with a controller and my TE2 at the sametime as both Liu Kang. The would usually jab each other. When doing with with my TE2 vs my TE1 the TE2's jab would always come out first. So I think the Skullgirls driver has a small input lag since the TE1 isn't meant for PS4.
I would test my hitbox, but I play on xbox one. I have a PS4 but am waiting until the complete edition of the game comes out before I buy it for that system. I dont think the lag on a hitbox will be noticeable. First round TE's by madcatz have been known to be laggy sticks in general. It could be what we were seeing was due to the lag of the madcatz stick. When I buy the game for ps4, I will test out a bunch of ps3 sticks and hitboxes to see if this more stick lag or driver lag related.
 
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Krackatoa

BEES? BEES!
@Krackatoa What is your gamplay setup? Are you using dedicated ps4 controllers/sticks and lagless monitors. Much of what you are saying about the cancel window and run cancel window being small makes much more sense to me if you are experiencing lag. I did a little experiment this weekend at a local tournament, where my opponent was using a ps3 stick and I was using a ps4 stick. We were playing on the Evo monitors. I went into practice mode and selected the same character as my opponent. At point blank range I hit the same attack (standing 1) on both sticks simultaneously. In theory, the attacks should trade, but thats not what happened. The ps4 stick beat out the ps3 stick every time. This is because the Lab zero driver is processing the ps3 signal to be read by the ps4 and is introducing a small amount of input lag in the process. Input lag will make cancel windows seem smaller than they actually are, and can make you think that you can buffer dash cancels in places where you cant. If you are not playing on a laggy setup, then maybe we just have different execution / reaction times.
I play on Hitbox, and on PC normally. Input lag has little to do with anything, because we're talking about 1 to 2 frames. Human reaction time for identification (Is this a low or an overhead coming?) is 17 to 22 frames when paying absolute attention. You also have twitch reaction which clocks in at 12 to 15. This is shit that I've measured via dozens of players, and from my own experience playing many other games.

You can probably get your reactions to Wasp Grenade down closer to your peak twitch reaction time, but that's still not enough time to confirm off Wasp Grenade coming out. You cannot use the same timing to cleanly combo off b1 AND run cancel it on block, and you cannot react to which is happening. You have to guess that your b1 is going to connect.

With f22 and f11, the window is far larger, and you CAN do the same timing and still connect a 212 without paying attention to which run cancel window you're hitting. The thing is, this window is VERY small. You're aiming to hit the very end of the comboable RC window for on-hit.

D'vorah can confirm off f22 and f11 alone, and you should aim to hit both RC windows as clean as possible, so as to remove execution errors when they do connect (You also get to confirm into f44 in the corner! You can't do that with the aformentioned "Works for Both!" RC timing). You have time to do so. The only exception to this is if we're going to find some crazy OS with a run cancel involved.

I'm actually pretty sure you're all doing this already, you just don't think that you're doing it.
 
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Take$$$

gotta take it to make it
I play on Hitbox, and on PC normally. Input lag has little to do with anything, because we're talking about 1 to 2 frames. Human reaction time for identification (Is this a low or an overhead coming?) is 17 to 22 frames when paying absolute attention. You also have twitch reaction which clocks in at 12 to 15. This is shit that I've measured via dozens of players, and from my own experience playing many other games.

You can probably get your reactions to Wasp Grenade down closer to your peak twitch reaction time, but that's still not enough time to confirm off Wasp Grenade coming out. You cannot use the same timing to cleanly combo off b1 AND run cancel it on block, and you cannot react to which is happening. You have to guess that your b1 is going to connect.

With f22 and f11, the window is far larger, and you CAN do the same timing and still connect a 212 without paying attention to which run cancel window you're hitting. The thing is, this window is VERY small. You're aiming to hit the very end of the comboable RC window for on-hit.

D'vorah can confirm off f22 and f11 alone, and you should aim to hit both RC windows as clean as possible, so as to remove execution errors when they do connect (You also get to confirm into f44 in the corner! You can't do that with the aformentioned "Works for Both!" RC timing). You have time to do so. The only exception to this is if we're going to find some crazy OS with a run cancel involved.

I'm actually pretty sure you're all doing this already, you just don't think that you're doing it.
I went and checked after your last sentence, and you're right but you're also wrong about having to guess if its your assumption that if they block then you don't get the wasp grenade due to forward inputs.

I found out why I was still getting the wasp genade, run, 21 on block while still connecting the combo on hit. Apparently what I do compared to you, is I slightly delay my forward inputs. This makes it so it won't erase the wasp grenade, and you will always get the run on time. I tried this by setting the training dummy to random block. I had enough time on the block to notice I could stop my input at 21, and on hit I was able to go all the way and finish the combo.

Edit: Oh and apparently I also have this habit of pressing forward 3 times on b1 wcs instead of twice, which might explain something if that still doesn't make sense.
 

Krackatoa

BEES? BEES!
I said that in my too wordy post.

With f22 and f11, the window is far larger, and you CAN do the same timing and still connect a 212 without paying attention to which run cancel window you're hitting. The thing is, this window is VERY small. You're aiming to hit the very end of the comboable RC window for on-hit.
My only reference to not being able to run cancel on hit and on block and still combo on hit is on b1.

I'm saying you lose combo options if you don't confirm the RC window you're hitting.
 

Take$$$

gotta take it to make it
I said that in my too wordy post.



My only reference to not being able to run cancel on hit and on block and still combo on hit is on b1.

I'm saying you lose combo options if you don't confirm the RC window you're hitting.
Err sorry I forgot to mention that I tried that with b1, didnt bother with f11 or f22 since I practiced those a lot already.

So yes, it's still possible with b1.
 

Krackatoa

BEES? BEES!
Err sorry I forgot to mention that I tried that with b1, didnt bother with f11 or f22 since I practiced those a lot already.

So yes, it's still possible with b1.
I just tested, and you're right. You can get can Wasp Grenade in both situations... but you do have to buffer an extra forward to get Dash on block..?

Ughughguhg. What a jank game. Sorry. This engine makes no sense sometimes.
 

Take$$$

gotta take it to make it
I just tested, and you're right. You can get can Wasp Grenade in both situations... but you do have to buffer an extra forward to get Dash on block..?

Ughughguhg. What a jank game. Sorry. This engine makes no sense sometimes.
Yeah the engine is definitely odd sometimes.

I started out doing b1 wasp cancels without the dummy randomly blocking, and for some reason I always pressed forward three times so it became muscle memory for me to do it that way. So I guess that's why I always got it on both hit and block without ever realizing, and I never would've realized that if it wasn't for this conversation haha. Learned something new about myself!

At least we found something new and potentially very useful in this discussion too.
 

skumz

...
WCs into run cancels are killing me. I can only land them about 25-30 percent of the time. Can I Make this easier? Damn! Lol
 

RYX

BIG PUSHER
so i've been playing with d'vorah in the swarm queen variant for a while and I was wondering before I pick her up, what each variation is better at with its specific tools? is venomous' chip damage good enough to warrant using it?
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
so i've been playing with d'vorah in the swarm queen variant for a while and I was wondering before I pick her up, what each variation is better at with its specific tools? is venomous' chip damage good enough to warrant using it?
Venomous has meter building and chip/venom damage, brood mother has some zoning and hard to blockables, and swarm queen has everything else. Swarm Queen is undoubtedly the best one bit I believe venomous is viable. Dont play brood mother enough to comment on it.