Crispy cancels...

[Enexemander]

I suppose we'll just over look the fact that DF also has the best run cancel pressure in the game, seeing as there is an undertone of downplaying.

Does he though? Why Liu and not Johnny?

Comparing the frame data:

Johnny:
F34 RC = +12
F3 SKRC = +17
F2 SKRC = +14
F24 SKRC = +11
11 SKRC = +4
21 SKRC = +7
121 RC = +13
113 SKRC = +1
114 SKRC = +17
333 SKRC = +15
B34 SKRC = +15
D4 SKRC = +5
4 SKRC = +23

Liu:
f44 FBRC =+8
B12 FBRC = -0
F213 FBRC = +13
112 FBRC = +10
F12 = 0

Seems pretty cut and dry that Johnny has much better frames on his cancels.
Johnny is the closest analog to Liu if we're just comparing how their cancel pressure works. They're practically mirror images of each other in design (Johnny being overhead starter, low mid combo mix up. Liu being low starter, overhead mid combo mix up). They both can ex moves to be + on block (though, again, Johnny gets more from his ex fireball. Liu gets +2, Johnny gets +4). Both have ass air attacks so they're designed to come straight at you.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Does he though? Why Liu and not Johnny?

Comparing the frame data:

Johnny:
F34 RC = +12
F3 SKRC = +17
F2 SKRC = +14
F24 SKRC = +11
11 SKRC = +4
21 SKRC = +7
121 RC = +13
113 SKRC = +1
114 SKRC = +17
333 SKRC = +15
B34 SKRC = +15
D4 SKRC = +5
4 SKRC = +23

Liu:
f44 FBRC =+8
B12 FBRC = -0
F213 FBRC = +13
112 FBRC = +10
F12 = 0

Seems pretty cut and dry that Johnny has much better frames on his cancels.
Johnny is the closest analog to Liu if we're just comparing how their cancel pressure works. They're practically mirror images of each other in design (Johnny being overhead starter, low mid combo mix up. Liu being low starter, overhead mid combo mix up). They both can ex moves to be + on block (though, again, Johnny gets more from his ex fireball. Liu gets +2, Johnny gets +4). Both have ass air attacks so they're designed to come straight at you.

I never knew that his frames were that good

 

[Wigy]

Why does everyone say marksmen cancels are easy

 

[Wigy]

Does he though? Why Liu and not Johnny?

Comparing the frame data:

Johnny:
F34 RC = +12
F3 SKRC = +17
F2 SKRC = +14
F24 SKRC = +11
11 SKRC = +4
21 SKRC = +7
121 RC = +13
113 SKRC = +1
114 SKRC = +17
333 SKRC = +15
B34 SKRC = +15
D4 SKRC = +5
4 SKRC = +23

Liu:
f44 FBRC =+8
B12 FBRC = -0
F213 FBRC = +13
112 FBRC = +10
F12 = 0

Seems pretty cut and dry that Johnny has much better frames on his cancels.
Johnny is the closest analog to Liu if we're just comparing how their cancel pressure works. They're practically mirror images of each other in design (Johnny being overhead starter, low mid combo mix up. Liu being low starter, overhead mid combo mix up). They both can ex moves to be + on block (though, again, Johnny gets more from his ex fireball. Liu gets +2, Johnny gets +4). Both have ass air attacks so they're designed to come straight at you.

They operate entirely different. Both allow for 3 reps on block lius jails entirely/builds more meter/ does more chip.

Jc's cancels contribute more to his footsies than anything. Liu's are just braindead chip

 

[Enexemander]

They operate entirely different. Both allow for 3 reps on block lius jails entirely/builds more meter/ does more chip.

Jc's cancels contribute more to his footsies than anything. Liu's are just braindead chip

Another way to think of it is that JC's frame data is so good, he can use it to complement his footsies as well as do braindead chip.

I don't main Johnny Cage, but just from the frame data it seems like he can get 114 SKRC to jail into itself and then end with EX Fireball to be +4. But you don't need to do that, because 114 is already +2 on block (Liu has to spend a bar to get +2 at the end of his full string. Johnny gets it for free.)

Again, I don't play Johnny, but it seems highly unlikely to me that you can't look at that frame data and come back with obviously good chip damage set ups.

 

[Blewdew]

Your right and I'm happy to change it. Where do you feel she belongs?

Imo she's on top of the second list or somewhere at the end of the First list. I don't Know about all cancel characters But she is definitely harder than raiden yet a bit easier than lui kang. So I think somewhere between them would do the job

@TopTierHarley

Yeah you can do some fancy stuff with her. I never do b1,wgc into Block since it's to hard to Hit confirm for me so I just go into 212 and if that gets blocked wgc backdash or block. You can also do things like 112,wgc,ff1,ex-wg~full combo which is incredibly fucking hard to do lol

 

[Wigy]

Another way to think of it is that JC's frame data is so good, he can use it to complement his footsies as well as do braindead chip.

I don't main Johnny Cage, but just from the frame data it seems like he can get 114 SKRC to jail into itself and then end with EX Fireball to be +4. But you don't need to do that, because 114 is already +2 on block (Liu has to spend a bar to get +2 at the end of his full string. Johnny gets it for free.)

Again, I don't play Johnny, but it seems highly unlikely to me that you can't look at that frame data and come back with obviously good chip damage set ups.

His only free chip setup is s4 skc 114 skc 214.

You can jail with 114 skc but its very tight and starts on a 9 frame HIGH.

Jc has to risk getting blown up on any cancel except 114 and s4. Both are high.

Jc lives and dies on his d4 and risk of f2. His cancels help him get in and stay in since his frame data is garbage for rushdown without cancels.

 

[KHTC Takgillo]

WTF?!? Lmao!!! Just went to the lab to test out this "just dash with HQT for +pressure" bs. I thought it had to be an error because I never paid attention to what cancels people use against me I just know they're plus.

Real talk, WTF is this ish?!? Lmao!!! Seriously? Godlike zoning with mindless thoughtless +frame pressure??? Who thought this was good character design?! Wow. WOW. Lolz worthy shit.

But remember folks, let's make sure not to make Jason, Kenshi, Kano, and Jacqui too strong.

Jacqui is quite strong

 

[Enexemander]

His only free chip setup is s4 skc 114 skc 214.

You can jail with 114 skc but its very tight and starts on a 9 frame HIGH.

Jc has to risk getting blown up on any cancel except 114 and s4. Both are high.

Jc lives and dies on his d4 and risk of f2. His cancels help him get in and stay in since his frame data is garbage for rushdown without cancels.

I'm picking up what you're putting down. On the other hand, your complaints actually sound enticing enough to make me want to pick up the character!

Why can't you start with B34 (starts mid, +15 on block) into 114 for a chip setup? 114 is only a 9 frame start up, so B34 should jail into it.

 

[SaltShaker]

Jacqui is quite strong

Depends on how you define "quite strong". I've heard some people say everyone is strong so I might have a different definition of the word.

 

[TopTierHarley]

Imo she's on top of the second list or somewhere at the end of the First list. I don't Know about all cancel characters But she is definitely harder than raiden yet a bit easier than lui kang. So I think somewhere between them would do the job

@TopTierHarley

Yeah you can do some fancy stuff with her. I never do b1,wgc into Block since it's to hard to Hit confirm for me so I just go into 212 and if that gets blocked wgc backdash or block. You can also do things like 112,wgc,ff1,ex-wg~full combo which is incredibly fucking hard to do lol

Lol yea, like she can do b1 wgc F11 ex df1 full combo

 

[Phosferrax]

Does he though? Why Liu and not Johnny?

Comparing the frame data:

Johnny:
F34 RC = +12
F3 SKRC = +17
F2 SKRC = +14
F24 SKRC = +11
11 SKRC = +4
21 SKRC = +7
121 RC = +13
113 SKRC = +1
114 SKRC = +17
333 SKRC = +15
B34 SKRC = +15
D4 SKRC = +5
4 SKRC = +23

Liu:
f44 FBRC =+8
B12 FBRC = -0
F213 FBRC = +13
112 FBRC = +10
F12 = 0

Seems pretty cut and dry that Johnny has much better frames on his cancels.
Johnny is the closest analog to Liu if we're just comparing how their cancel pressure works. They're practically mirror images of each other in design (Johnny being overhead starter, low mid combo mix up. Liu being low starter, overhead mid combo mix up). They both can ex moves to be + on block (though, again, Johnny gets more from his ex fireball. Liu gets +2, Johnny gets +4). Both have ass air attacks so they're designed to come straight at you.

I have already said that characters have cancels that are individual to them, thus you can't apply the same blanket analysis to them without consideration of the context of the character and not just looking at numbers. Liu Kang can do a 3-hit string to get his maximum frame advantage, which starts with an 11f mid. JC's highest is s4 but it is much less useful than 114 which starts with a high, and I'm not sure that it even jails into another high on some characters. DF has then the ability to continue his pressure with mb flying kick, which although leaves at less +frames than ex force ball, leaves them point blank with fully replenished stamina, and Liu has b12 to chew most options from the cast. Ex force ball has pushback, costs more meter and does not allow JC to replenish his stamina, nor allows for such a skewed risk/reward scenario afterwards. Liu simply has better means to lock people down with, mixed with mid staggers instead of highs. DF is about lockdown, whereas A-list is about mixups.

 

[KHTC Takgillo]

Depends on how you define "quite strong". I've heard some people say everyone is strong so I might have a different definition of the word.

she s maybe just below character like takeda and over high mid tier she s in no way has bad as kenshi or jason etc

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Why does everyone say marksmen cancels are easy

They are like jax and scorp and are easy to link. f13 rc 112 or other links are just very very effective and easy to do.

They operate entirely different. Both allow for 3 reps on block lius jails entirely/builds more meter/ does more chip.

Jc's cancels contribute more to his footsies than anything. Liu's are just braindead chip

Sounds like your speaking about cage the way we speak about kang except we are not asking for cage nerfs. Both pressure is very very good but both have holes that limit how the player uses it. If the opponent knows the holes and you get greedy, you lose your turn.

BTW since yesterday I picked up heavy weapons Jax. Day 1 and he is already better than my other alternates. Am I a Jax main now?

 

[SaltShaker]

she s maybe just below character like takeda and over high mid tier she s in no way has bad as kenshi or jason etc

For sure she is better than Kenshi/Jason, but when I think of "High Mid Tier" Kitana, KJ, Sonya. I wouldn't put Jacqui in this group as these characters seem significantly stronger than her. But I can see why others would, I just don't agree at all.

 

[KHTC Takgillo]

For sure she is better than Kenshi/Jason, but when I think of "High Mid Tier" Kitana, KJ, Sonya. I wouldn't put Jacqui in this group as these characters seem significantly stronger than her. But I can see why others would, I just don't agree at all.

I think she s better than kung jin but need more practice and experience her cloe up game is one of the best and with some good reads she can get in

 

[SaltShaker]

I think she s better than kung jin but need more practice and experience her cloe up game is one of the best and with some good reads she can get in

I can agree with the second part. Her range was too much of an issue for me in some MUs to overcome. It can be real lol.

 

[Wigy]

They are like jax and scorp and are easy to link. f13 rc 112 or other links are just very very effective and easy to do.


Sounds like your speaking about cage the way we speak about kang except we are not asking for cage nerfs. Both pressure is very very good but both have holes that limit how the player uses it. If the opponent knows the holes and you get greedy, you lose your turn.

BTW since yesterday I picked up heavy weapons Jax. Day 1 and he is already better than my other alternates. Am I a Jax main now?

Not asking for nerfs. Also there is no gaps in f213 pressure vs some of the casT.

I find the marksmen links tight and i can get f2 skc links easy. Guess its just practice

 

[Enexemander]

I have already said that characters have cancels that are individual to them, thus you can't apply the same blanket analysis to them without consideration of the context of the character and not just looking at numbers. Liu Kang can do a 3-hit string to get his maximum frame advantage, which starts with an 11f mid. JC's highest is s4 but it is much less useful than 114 which starts with a high, and I'm not sure that it even jails into another high on some characters. DF has then the ability to continue his pressure with mb flying kick, which although leaves at less +frames than ex force ball, leaves them point blank with fully replenished stamina, and Liu has b12 to chew most options from the cast. Ex force ball has pushback, costs more meter and does not allow JC to replenish his stamina, nor allows for such a skewed risk/reward scenario afterwards. Liu simply has better means to lock people down with, mixed with mid staggers instead of highs. DF is about lockdown, whereas A-list is about mixups.

Different options, but I wouldn't say they were worse than Liu's. Also note that JC's 3 hit strings into RC are ALL more plus than Liu's highest advantage 3 hit strings.

Ex Force Ball costs one meter. Meter burning Flying kick costs one meter. So Ex Force Ball does not "cost more meter." B34 starts mid, and should jail into any stand 1 option (by the math. I could be missing something). What I'm saying is that Johnny's massive cancel advantage gives him a ton of options. I don't see a reason why you couldn't use any of his 3 hit block strings into run cancel to get massive chip. B34-114-114. I'm sure there are other options. I'm sure there are BETTER options, which is why JC mains use those instead.

Can you lock someone down exactly like Liu does? No, but you can get very close, as well as having a lot of other options (like an amazing neutral game with Dizzy Knee and D4, and a pretty solid neutral jump punch.)

I've been labbing JC just now from reading this thread, and he seems like an obviously great character. Getting his SKRC's to jail doesn't seem difficult for me, but the inputs are almost the same as Liu's so I have a head start there.

 

[Enexemander]

Also, something weird as Hell I just found.

Nevermind, I was derping. But I'll put it in spoilers.

Spoiler

At some distances, EX-Fireball into F3 (Dizzy Knee) jails on block. Mid screen. I'm testing this on Kenshi, set to stand block and backdash on reversal. Seems like an amazing chip set up if you can get it consistent. I wonder how much stamina you would recover from EX-Forceball followed by a jailed Dizzy Knee?

Something isn't working the way I think it should. EX forceball is only +4. Dizzy knee is 11 frame start up. that's a -7 frame window. Why is this jailing?

Kenshi is set to block standing, with backdash on reversal.

http://plays.tv/video/563f89f4b46edf15bc

[edit] Oh nevermind, it looks like Kenshi just has a sliver too little stamina to backdash. Derp.

 

[Phosferrax]

Different options, but I wouldn't say they were worse than Liu's. Also note that JC's 3 hit strings into RC are ALL more plus than Liu's highest advantage 3 hit strings.

Ex Force Ball costs one meter. Meter burning Flying kick costs one meter. So Ex Force Ball does not "cost more meter." B34 starts mid, and should jail into any stand 1 option (by the math. I could be missing something). What I'm saying is that Johnny's massive cancel advantage gives him a ton of options. I don't see a reason why you couldn't use any of his 3 hit block strings into run cancel to get massive chip. B34-114-114. I'm sure there are other options. I'm sure there are BETTER options, which is why JC mains use those instead.

Can you lock someone down exactly like Liu does? No, but you can get very close, as well as having a lot of other options (like an amazing neutral game with Dizzy Knee and D4, and a pretty solid neutral jump punch.)

I've been labbing JC just now from reading this thread, and he seems like an obviously great character. Getting his SKRC's to jail doesn't seem difficult for me, but the inputs are almost the same as Liu's so I have a head start there.

Go into training mode and compare ex force ball on block meter gain to mb flying kick and tell me they spend the same amount of meter. And you are too concerned with math and numbers and not concerned enough with actual labbing. Cages b3 is 17f with bad range and a mid that often whiffs on crouching, and 114 doesn't jail into another high on some characters.

Please lab and stop quoting numbers.

 

[Prinz]

Does he though? Why Liu and not Johnny?

Comparing the frame data:

Johnny:
F34 RC = +12
F3 SKRC = +17
F2 SKRC = +14
F24 SKRC = +11
11 SKRC = +4
21 SKRC = +7
121 RC = +13
113 SKRC = +1
114 SKRC = +17
333 SKRC = +15
B34 SKRC = +15
D4 SKRC = +5
4 SKRC = +23

Liu:
f44 FBRC =+8
B12 FBRC = -0
F213 FBRC = +13
112 FBRC = +10
F12 = 0

Seems pretty cut and dry that Johnny has much better frames on his cancels.
Johnny is the closest analog to Liu if we're just comparing how their cancel pressure works. They're practically mirror images of each other in design (Johnny being overhead starter, low mid combo mix up. Liu being low starter, overhead mid combo mix up). They both can ex moves to be + on block (though, again, Johnny gets more from his ex fireball. Liu gets +2, Johnny gets +4). Both have ass air attacks so they're designed to come straight at you.

This is all true, but Jounny doesn't get his stamina and enhanced meter back after canceling. People need to realize it's not about the cancel per se, it's about the possibility to loop the cancels. Johnny can do 3 reps max, while Loui can loop it as much as he likes because he gets back the stamina to do the cancels all over and the meter to be plus.
I don't get why this thread is still open, it's to keep people busy I guess. I can't imagine what will happen if KP2 comes with some changes to Ru Kang, TYM is gonna turn white from salt.

Edit: lol, I thought this was the liu corner block infinite thread. Meh, whatever, both threads are trash.

 

[Enexemander]

Those are fair points, but they don't address my assertions.

Go into training mode and compare ex force ball on block meter gain to mb flying kick and tell me they spend the same amount of meter. And you are too concerned with math and numbers and not concerned enough with actual labbing. Cages b3 is 17f with bad range and a mid that often whiffs on crouching, and 114 doesn't jail into another high on some characters.

Please lab and stop quoting numbers.

Doesn't work on some characters is not the same as doesn't work at all. Different match ups have different options because of different hitboxes. I don't like it, but we don't get to pretend that the option doesn't exist because it isn't universal. Sub-Zero has hitbox dependent set ups as well.

I feel we may be talking past each other. Are you asserting that JC isn't a great pressure character with run cancels? I don't think so. Are you trying to say that JC is not as good a pressure character as Liu Kang? I think you are. To which I say, he has a lot more options and overall better frame data. It's a subjective stance overall, which is why I'm pointing at the objective frame data to show you where my opinion is coming from.

And one meter is one meter. How much it builds back on block is different than how much it costs up front. And since we can only use the meter when we have it, rather than totaling our debits and credits together at the end of the quarter to see if we can go back in time and use the net profit to burn a meter- one meter is one meter.

 

[SaSSolino]

IYour right and I'm happy to change it. Where do you feel she belongs?

you're*

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

you're*

I fucking hate grammar police. I have a masters degree and am done with school so fuck you!