Menu
By:
Filters
What's new

Match Footage Casuals: STB Sgt Reed (Raiden) vs STB CharlieMurphy (Sub-Zero)

ryublaze

ryublaze

Noob
This isn't really for the Raiden player, but for the Sub-Zero. The way I play this MU is to get lifelead and put myself into the corner. I'm not exactly sure that this is how the MU is played but I remember Brady talking about it once, and if I'm wrong then feel free to blow me up.
 
NRF CharlieMurphy

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
RedRaptor10 said:
This isn't really for the Raiden player, but for the Sub-Zero. The way I play this MU is to get lifelead and put myself into the corner. I'm not exactly sure that this is how the MU is played but I remember Brady talking about it once, and if I'm wrong then feel free to blow me up.
Click to expand...
I feel like it is too.... but i was seriously having trouble "reacting" to teleports.
Not to make it sound like I am degrading Reed.... but I don't get any raiden MU exp. He's leveled up past the "online" Raiden. He taught me alot in that set that I wasn't aware of as well. I felt like he played the MU awesomely. He made good reads and took chances when he felt the need. There are a few matches where he just flat bodies me.

I obviously have a personal problem with crossovers... and it is very apparent throughout the entire set. I also have a problem with not finishing 2,2 LOL ;)
 
STB Sgt Reed

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
STB CharlieMurphy said:
I feel like it is too.... but i was seriously having trouble "reacting" to teleports.
Not to make it sound like I am degrading Reed.... but I don't get any raiden MU exp. He's leveled up past the "online" Raiden. He taught me alot in that set that I wasn't aware of as well. I felt like he played the MU awesomely. He made good reads and took chances when he felt the need. There are a few matches where he just flat bodies me.

I obviously have a personal problem with crossovers... and it is very apparent throughout the entire set. I also have a problem with not finishing 2,2 LOL ;)
Click to expand...
Just need more njps vs me and it would have gone a lot different. I jump after every tele bc I'm afraid of pokes lol. Gotta stop that shit.


Also, shoutouts to asking for raiden advice and getting sub advice... -.- :p
 
4x4lo8o

4x4lo8o

Noob
STB CharlieMurphy said:
calling all raidens. Help a brotha out here!!!
Click to expand...
Haha, there aren't many Raidens around. Chaosphere will probably comment eventually, and if he's lucky B Wizz will chip in, but there's not really anyone else. I'll watch and later tonight when I'm off work, see if I have anything worthwhile to add. I have a bit of experience in the Sub match up and I usually do pretty well.



As far as jumping after teleports because of pokes, try mixing in backdash, b312. It blows up pokes and can catch a lot of other stupid shit people react to teleport with. Backdash b312 works in a lot of situations, it's great to use after a d3 to catch them if they try to counterpoke
 
KingHippo

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
This was more towards the earlier sets then the later ones, but for awhile I noticed you would get a life lead, but still be aggressive, throwing lots of fireballs and pokes at him. I think this is a mistake against Sub-Zero, since all this is doing is giving him multiple opportunities to catch you with a clone or trade a ice blast or armor through the strings. Once you have the life lead, Sub-Zero can do relatively little to steal that lead back, so it's important to have a minimalist approach once you get that life lead.

Also I noticed a tendency to use Vicinity Blast after a lot of strings. This is is a mistake since a majority of the time your opponent didn't have to take those blasts, he could have ducked and full punished you pretty hard. Now he didn't do that too often, but it is worth noting that if you want to jail an opponent into Vicinity Blast after a JiP, use f23, which will give you a pretty sick mixup between f23 xx Vicinity Blast and f23 throw. Also I noticed a real lack of throws, which confused me since as Raiden you have a lot of opportunities to steal a throw between teleport, f23, any blocked Vicinity Blast, delayed strings, etc.

One last thing, you mentioned that you always like to jump after teleports. If you teleport after f23, d4, b2f1 or 22, you're only at approximately -1, and thus you have plenty of time to back away and watch pokes whiff and punish with either Superman or b3 or whatever you'd like. Using teleports like this in a more defensive manner would have avoided a lot of the trouble you ran into of teleporting into SZ's 2 and ice clones.
 
4x4lo8o

4x4lo8o

Noob
I'm just gonna go through the video and mention everything I see. My bad if it seems super critical of little stuff, I'm not trying to blow you up

:17 you tried to superman him as he ice cloned, but you hit his wake up invincibility frames. It was a good read, and that works it's not wake up ice clone, but it's risky and you got lucky he didn't punish

:32 you landed a jip in the corner while he was whiffing a string. The setup was good, but I don't know why went for the 22 string after the jip. It didn't matter because he broke(I guess if you wanted some unbreakable damage 1/2~shocker would have been the way to go) but there's not really any reason not to go for 334 there since you knew the jip was going to land and 334 leads to way bigger damage

:39 could have punished slide with more damage

:44 I have no idea why you linked ex-VB at the end of that string. I liked your use of f23 1+2 though

1:09 following up that vb with f3 probably wasn't a strong choice. After vb hits you get a free jip, or in the corner like that you probably could have just gone for any block string you wanted, or a throw or something. F3 really didn't get you anything(and wouldn't have even if it hit) and he could have blocked it and punished

1:30 good job catching him with that shocker, you can net a lot more damage than that by just dashing and throwing in a 334 before the superman

1:40 when you're doing the b312 and they get popped over your head and you get option selected into vb, if you see that happening(or learn the height where it happens) you can reverse your inputs and still catch them with the shocker

1:48 you can full combo ice ball on reaction with teleport. You missed an easy 35% damage here

1:56 nice jk, superman over his head. I always mess those up and get punished

2:10 you can hit confirm b2f1 in ex-shocker(although maybe not after the second hit like happened there), which would have finished the match. Same with the f23 immediately afterwards that he didn't block

2:21 just realized you're playing online. My bad if anything I say was in response to something that was compensating for lag. I don't play much online but I know how hard stuff is to react to and punish, teleporting on reaction is was harder(people say Raiden is better online but I think he's actually worse for this reason, if you're not teleporting willy nilly and getting away with it when you would be getting blown up offline), and landing combos is stupid(I've never landed a 334 after a shocker online)

2:34 not sure why you went for an enhanced superman there

3:32 you teleported too much this round. Don't teleport while he's jumping, half the time you're going to end up right in front of him

3:37 that's the second time this match you've linked a vb at the end of b312 and he's crouched it and poked you. Don't get predictable about this, he could be hitting you with worse than a poke. if he's standing at the start of the string you can try mixing it up with b31~vb while he's anticipating the overhead

4:03 swag

4:18 I don't recommend cancelling into superman at the end of your strings like that unless you're anticipating them armouring through the gap. Often they're just going to go for a poke anyway(just like he did there), so by cancelling all you're doing is taking away your own ability to block the poke(I think teleport is still -13 when cancelled at the end of that string, it's definitely more negative than just ending the string). You're better off ending the string then teleporting as soon as they do something(the string's only -3, so you can still teleport before anything touches you

4:26 shouldn't have enhanced that superman. From close range it only does 10% like a normal super(not that the extra 2% you get fullscreen would have been worth it) and he wasn't doing anything you needed to armor through. Also, don't ever sit there throwing fireballs like that. Raiden's fireballs are awful, use sparingly

5:10 whiffed supermans have a long recovery, and you put yourself in the corner. ouch

6:13 I've never understood why getting hit with superman doesn't make his clone break

7:02 You can hit confirm f23, there's no reason to link a vb while he's crouching. f23 is 0, so ending with it is no worse than vb

7:34 You two spent the last 20 seconds jumping around like idiots. I feel like you could have won this one if you had slowed down and backed off after you closed that huge life lead he had

7:51 jip, 22 while he's whiffing a string in the corner again. Is there a reason you're choosing that string?

8:22 another reason not to cancel that string into teleport

10:41 jip 22 in the corner... do you have some godlike combo off it that I don't know?

10:52 if you make him whiff a slide make sure you punish it with superman

12:35 could have landed a superman after that ex-vb. I don't think you should use ex-vb like that though

If you had hit confirmed f23 into ex-shocker at the end you would have won :(

Pretty good overall. You should probably try to bait and punish more. Anytime he throws an iceball you can full combo him(if he's sitting on a clone you might have to settle for ex-superman) and if he gets desperate and throws out slides you can punish him hard(you can punish those with b312, btw. You kept using f24 which is significantly less damage). Up close isn't great for Raiden. Sub has way better normals and you're more likely to end up in an ice clone, but he can't do anything from full screen

I like your use of the 22 string a lot(just not when you're landed a jip in the corner). It's easily Raiden's most underrated string. 22 is hitconfirmable into shocker(or vb on block, and it jails high), safely cancels into teleport, and it can end with that low or b1(which is flashy and pushes them back into a range that gives you options)

KingHippo said:
One last thing, you mentioned that you always like to jump after teleports. If you teleport after f23, d4, b2f1 or 22, you're only at approximately -1, and thus you have plenty of time to back away and watch pokes whiff and punish with either Superman or b3 or whatever you'd like. Using teleports like this in a more defensive manner would have avoided a lot of the trouble you ran into of teleporting into SZ's 2 and ice clones.
Click to expand...
-3
 
4x4lo8o

4x4lo8o

Noob
A few more thoughts after watching the second video:

Try to hit confirm b312, so if you whiff you don't give the opponent an eternity to punish you while you finish the string. I think I saw you do it earlier in the series, but at the begging of the second video you whiffed the whole string and gave him a really long time to punish.

There are a few times you've used standing 3 by itself. I dunno if you the rest of the string didn't come out or you were trying to do something else, but it you were just going for standing 3 I don't recommend that. 3 is -18 on block

You definitely got better about using Vicinity Blast at the end of strings. 33~vb is good, just don't use it every time and don't cross over every time you use it.

I still don't really agree with a lot of your meter use. You seem really eager to just throw stuff out there. I would only use enhanced superman to go through a projectile, and you're the only Raiden I've seen who use ex-Vicinity Blast. At one point he was jumping in on you and you ex-superman'd through his ice clone to get away. I would have just used ex-shocker there. Works great as an aa and would have you gotten a full combo for that bar of meter instead of just better positioning. Raiden doesn't have a ton a really strong uses for meter, but he also doesn't build it fast enough that you should be throwing stuff out there on whim. Aside from breaker, I think ex-tele, ex-shocker, and occasionally ex-lightning are the best uses for meter. Also, don't be afraid to sit on xray. Raiden's Xray is really good - fast, safe, works as an aa, and does decent damage. Your opponent has to respect you more when you have it

Don't use teleport on wake up so much. He wasn't really blowing you up for it, but remember that every teleport is putting you right next to him at -13. If you get too predictable the opponent can bait that out and punish. It's perfectly fine to just get up and block. And if your opponent gets to aggressive because you're blocking on wake up then you start punishing with superman or shocker.

You had a really nice conversion in the corner off of an aa d4, but you dropped it because he was too low to the ground during b312. In that situation you can do b31~shocker and catch them.

You're doing good stuff after pokes, f2s and crossovers and ~teleports are all good, but there's more you can mix in there. d3 back dash b312 is really good. It'll get them if they try to counter poke or mash out a fast jab to beat your crossover or f2, and once they start respecting it you have more pressure options. After d4 hits you're at +15 so you get a free crossover or throw attempt, so don't forget about those.

Sometimes you use enhanced teleport when you should just be teleporting. Don't use ex-teleport on reaction to his string, it just puts you right into his string. In that situation you just want to teleport and whiff punish. Use ex-teleport when he's clearly expecting, or trying to bait a teleport. A lot of the time if the opponent is backing up it's a good hint that to use ex-teleport

Work on doing different stuff after you teleport. Pokes, f23/4, 1212, sweep, block, throw. There's a ton of stuff you can do. Don't crossover everytime
 
4x4lo8o

4x4lo8o

Noob
KingHippo said:
Lol if it was -3 the AI would not jump at the same time as you once you teleported. That means it's extremely close to 0, so I'll go with -1.
Click to expand...
The practice dummy? I don't think setting it to jump is effective here. Let's test it next time we play.

Somberness can you help us out here?
What's the frame data after f23~teleport? Does the turning around animation affect anything?
 
Batman_UA

Batman_UA

F+2,4 master
Would agree on every world that 4x4lo8o wrote.
I will add that you should really watch your meter, it's better to keep it for breaker.
Plus Raiden can teleport out of many Sub's strings. For example u can tele after Sub does b+1,2,1 and wiff punish him.
 
4x4lo8o

4x4lo8o

Noob
So I was messing around in the lab a little bit and realized VB whiffs on Sub Zero if he's not blocking, which may have been why you were enhancing it. Which is weird because on a bunch of characters it's the opposite. I knew VB had funky characteristics on it's hitbox, but I haven't really explored it much. I'm going to mess with it some more and make a thread compiling everyone it does or doesn't hit if one doesn't exist already.

Batman_UA said:
Plus Raiden can teleport out of many Sub's strings. For example u can tele after Sub does b+1,2,1 and wiff punish him.
Click to expand...
That's a really good point. I forgot Sub had holes in his string. Definitely something to learn and abuse if you're going to be playing that matchup a lot
 
STB Sgt Reed

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
My replies in blue b/c it's a hassle to quote multiple things from the same person. lol

4x4lo8o said:
:32 you landed a jip in the corner while he was whiffing a string. The setup was good, but I don't know why went for the 22 string after the jip. It didn't matter because he broke(I guess if you wanted some unbreakable damage 1/2~shocker would have been the way to go) but there's not really any reason not to go for 334 there since you knew the jip was going to land and 334 leads to way bigger damage

I know all about the damage difference in 334... 22 is my string of choice on a jip b/c I can go into the low, a shocker combo, a vb, or a teleport. I'm just so use to doing it that when I jump in... my mind goes straight to 22. Thanks for pointing it out though... gonna work on not doing it in the corner.

:39 could have punished slide with more damage

What's the biggest punish for a blocked slide?

I didn't know it, so I just tried to do something fast that I knew would hit. lol

:44 I have no idea why you linked ex-VB at the end of that string. I liked your use of f23 1+2 though

As much as I'd like to take credit of doing ex VB b/c VB whiffs on sub... that's not why I did it. If you see me do an ex VB it's an accident b/c of how close I have my finger to the block button. lol

1:09 following up that vb with f3 probably wasn't a strong choice. After vb hits you get a free jip, or in the corner like that you probably could have just gone for any block string you wanted, or a throw or something. F3 really didn't get you anything(and wouldn't have even if it hit) and he could have blocked it and punished

Just another input error. If I do a F3, it's always an accident. Most of the time it's me inputting superman too fast. Not sure what I was trying to do there, but it certainly wasn't a F3. :)

1:30 good job catching him with that shocker, you can net a lot more damage than that by just dashing and throwing in a 334 before the superman

Good point! Thanks man.

1:40 when you're doing the b312 and they get popped over your head and you get option selected into vb, if you see that happening(or learn the height where it happens) you can reverse your inputs and still catch them with the shocker

Didn't think of that either. lol

1:48 you can full combo ice ball on reaction with teleport. You missed an easy 35% damage here

What's the punish? 334 bnb? or B312 bnb?

2:10 you can hit confirm b2f1 in ex-shocker(although maybe not after the second hit like happened there), which would have finished the match. Same with the f23 immediately afterwards that he didn't block

You can, but it has to hit the first hit for your brain to be able to hit confirm. I've never really practiced the ex shocker combos though. Something to look into.

2:34 not sure why you went for an enhanced superman there

Didn't know he was gonna jump... figured he might clone. lol

3:32 you teleported too much this round. Don't teleport while he's jumping, half the time you're going to end up right in front of him

Yeah, I love teleporting too much. lol

3:37 that's the second time this match you've linked a vb at the end of b312 and he's crouched it and poked you. Don't get predictable about this, he could be hitting you with worse than a poke. if he's standing at the start of the string you can try mixing it up with b31~vb while he's anticipating the overhead

Good idea. Thanks

4:03 swag

It's actually less damage than the normal corner combo, but I love the VB!

4:18 I don't recommend cancelling into superman at the end of your strings like that unless you're anticipating them armouring through the gap. Often they're just going to go for a poke anyway(just like he did there), so by cancelling all you're doing is taking away your own ability to block the poke(I think teleport is still -13 when cancelled at the end of that string, it's definitely more negative than just ending the string). You're better off ending the string then teleporting as soon as they do something(the string's only -3, so you can still teleport before anything touches you

Er, I didn't cancel into superman... I was jumping backwards, then decided to superman. lol
Maybe the wrong time stamp?

4:26 shouldn't have enhanced that superman. From close range it only does 10% like a normal super(not that the extra 2% you get fullscreen would have been worth it) and he wasn't doing anything you needed to armor through. Also, don't ever sit there throwing fireballs like that. Raiden's fireballs are awful, use sparingly

I gotta disagree here... You can recover fast enough to not get hit by an ice blast. And it builds meter. I just can't sit there and do nothing... I'm too antsy for that, I gotta do something! lol

5:10 whiffed supermans have a long recovery, and you put yourself in the corner. ouch

Was trying to end up in front of him. :(
Click to expand...
Thanks again for the input!
 
4x4lo8o

4x4lo8o

Noob
Oops, at 4:18 I meant don't cancel into teleport. On block don't cancel your strings into teleport unless you're trying to blow up an attempt to armor through your strings.
If they're trying to mash a poke or something as soon as your string is done and you cancel into teleport the poke will still hit. Finish your string, wait to see what they do, then teleport.

As far as punishing, your go to should generally always be b312 or superman. Superman mostly for whiff punishing and situations where they're far away or recover quickly. B312 for stuff like blocked slides and teleport punches. Off the top of my head the only things I punish differently is Elbow Dash(121~shocker) and Mileena's roll(1~vb, dash shocker, 334, superman, same as bnb aa). F24 shouldn't really be used to punish, it's not enough faster than b312 to make a difference and b312 yields way more damage. F24 is more of a footsies things, used as block string that leaves you neutral with advantageous spacing and happens to converts for mild damage if it hits.
You can teleport and punish ice ball with b312

As far as fireballs, you can use them but don't sit there throwing 3 or 4 as fast as you can. It makes you predictable and gives him a better chance of trading or getting in and punishing somehow. Throw one, wait a second, throw another, walk forward and back, use a vb, throw another fireball, etc. Just mix it up. Remember that you can punish ice ball, but not if you're throwing out lightning while he uses it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.