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Match-up Discussion Aquaman Matchup Discussion

Im guessing this is directed at my post? I already stated that its not on reaction to a divekick but a jump from adam. Please read my post and explanation before you just make generalizations. Im trying to tell people that dive kick really isnt this OP tool everyone says it is. But as REO said its getting nerfed anyway so no one can cry about it anymore after that.
It wasnt directed at you, ive read more people talking about air to airing aerial moves that are impossible to air to air even MB the focus attacks isnt a solid counter against the divekicks. The divekick isnt op imo and black adams game revolves quite a lot around the divekick i believe. this is going to be a bad nerf if NRS really decides to nerf the divekick.
 

Briggs8417

Salt Proprietor of TYM
It wasnt directed at you, ive read more people talking about air to airing aerial moves that are impossible to air to air even MB the focus attacks isnt a solid counter against the divekicks. The divekick isnt op imo and black adams game revolves quite a lot around the divekick i believe. this is going to be a bad nerf if NRS really decides to nerf the divekick.
This is completely untrue and you are highly overestimating dive kicks priority compared to every air normal out there. It's more than practical to air to air boot stomps with just jumpin normals.
 

Whackojack

Noob Saibot is BACK!
This is completely untrue and you are highly overestimating dive kicks priority compared to every air normal out there. It's more than practical to air to air boot stomps with just jumpin normals.
I've had luck jumping on reaction to BA jumping and using J2 because of it's range, I've actually had pretty solid results so far
 

Awake

Noob
b1 2 string punishes divekick at most ranges. BAM! you will now beat 70% of the Black Adam players.
 

Awake

Noob
Not if it hits you below the waist, and especially not online
Online black adams will not have the spacing to hit you where it is safe, more importantly dont be in the range where it will hit below the waist, and if you are you have to know he wants to do it, then armor b3 that shit. And Punishing is very far from undoable online.
 

Reptile Orion

A Fire Will Rise.
I just starting training with Aquaman 3 days ago and finally felt comfortable to unleash him online last night. Thanks for the info so far in this thread. Any additional thoughts on strategy when matched up against a rushdown character like Flash or Catwoman?
 

dabuz

Noob
I'm curious as to what Aquaman has to deal with Hawkgirl?

As a HG player I have found that once I get airborne Aquaman seems to be super limited as to what he can actually do?

Aquaman has good antiairs and a superior moveset at all ranges when on the ground vs. HG (then again, who doesn't). If Aquaman reads one mace throw or other air option for HG, he can easily punish her and land a 40% combo + set up an oki reset game. You must not be facing good Aquamen if they are having trouble hitting HG once she gets airborn.

@Reptile: Be a bit more careful of using a move like from the deep which leaves you open to be rushed down, since those characters can't do much to Aquaman at any range but up close (where Aquaman still doe well). Also, try to always have a meter on hand to push block/
 

regulas

Your Emporer
Aquaman has good antiairs and a superior moveset at all ranges when on the ground vs. HG (then again, who doesn't). If Aquaman reads one mace throw or other air option for HG, he can easily punish her and land a 40% combo + set up an oki reset game. You must not be facing good Aquamen if they are having trouble hitting HG once she gets airborn.

@Reptile: Be a bit more careful of using a move like from the deep which leaves you open to be rushed down, since those characters can't do much to Aquaman at any range but up close (where Aquaman still doe well). Also, try to always have a meter on hand to push block/


Must be, I have only seen them use one anti air that can actually reach at max height (I've seen other medium reach moves), which makes it super predictable (simply toss maces when they are not in a position to hit with that move, and when they are bait and punish them).

Also as a side note despite many HG trying to zone with her and despite the fact that her melee range is TERRIBLE, she operates at 6f and is actually a good rushdown played properly.
 

dabuz

Noob
I wouldn't say good rushdown, at least not vs. Aquaman. At best she has a nice safe move with bf2 and if she gets AM in the corner, it's pretty much GG. Outcamping her is completely foolish though without an air projectile.

 

Ben Reed

Marine Biologist
VS. Doomsday basic notes:

...Man I hate this guy. But that's neither here nor there. First things first:

Upshoulder (DB+3) on block: Power punish with your best b+3 combo if trait is not active. You may never see this depending on how smart the Doomsday is, but there you are.

Regular shoulder (DF+3) on block: d+1~DB+2 -> combo if trait is not active.

Telestomp (DB+2): Dash under b+3 is most consistent. I would really advise against trying to get fancy with Water Shield absorb, as if you don't dash cancel or release quickly after absorbing the unblockable, you'll miss your chance at a b+3 combo for optimal damage. If the corner makes things awkward for you, you can use f+3 to start your combo instead for the same amount of damage.

EDIT 5/4/13: Almost forgot, you can also punish blocked sweep with d+1~DB+2 -> combo if you're close enough and Doomsday isn't traited.

With that out of the way...

This guy is going to be in your face. A LOT. So do yourself a big favor and HANG ON to your meter for pushblock and the occasional MB b+3. This guy has a ton of ways to be safe or even advantage in your face, so don't hit buttons unless you know for sure what's not safe with him (which isn't much).

Don't spend meter on combos unless they're going to finish a lifebar (or put him in a position where he has to gamble on wakeup or die to chip). Seriously. Don't even bother with 1-bar BnBs. You don't need damage nearly so bad as you need to GET HIM THE FUCK AWAY FROM YOU.

Favor high block because his fastest low is his sweep, which is good, but not NEARLY as threatening or rewarding as his legions of safe overheads. Most of his unsafe strings, he can cancel into DF+2 to make both safe and bullshit (more on that below). You NEED pushblock or MB f+3/b+3 to get this guy off your back, blocking alone WILL NOT cut it.

AVOID JUMPING BACK. Properly spaced regular shoulder AS WELL as up shoulder can anti-air your shit very frequently. You're not gonna win this match from the air anyway. So plant your feet and let him get his rushdown out of his system. Dude is like SF4 Bison on PCP.

DO NOT pushblock regular shoulder BY ITSELF. You not only miss out on a guaranteed punish (if armor isn't up), but also if Doomsday MBs his shoulder, he can cancel the pushblock and stay in your face, and you can't pushblock again because you're still blocking. A raw deal for Aquaman. So if he randomly shoulders, just chill and get ready for a punish if it's regular. If he MBs it to stay in, too bad, keep blocking. That's the nature of the beast in this stupid matchup.

Biggest and STUPIDEST gimmick you need to know about with this guy is his Earth Shake (DF+2) stomp move. Hits overhead and then low so fast you have to fuzzy guard. 18f startup, so you can't jump or backdash out of it if he buffered it from a blocked d+1. Dumb. But that's not the bullshit part.

The in-game frame data says Doomsday DF+2 is -9 on block. This is a complete and utter LIE. This move is COMPLETELY SAFE on block to ANYTHING Aquaman does. Superman's super cannot reversal punish this move. It is safe on block to EVERYTHING IN THE GAME. Your best bet is to (1) practice blocking it just in case, and then immediately (2) start learning from your friendly neighborhood Doomsday players when they are likely to use this move, and pushblock before they even get to use it (say from a random blocked d+1).

EDIT 5/4/13: According to I$AAC, this move is actually +1 on block. Pretty damn dumb if true. Regardless, it pushes Doomsday too far back for Aquaman to force a blocked d+1~DF+1 MB for counter chip. None of Doomsday's safe moves will reach you from that distance, either. Doomsday has to either get reckless or let you breathe if you block this move. IF you block it. Try your very best never to be in a situation to block this move.

Also, if you're bad at blocking this move, favor blocking the 1st hit (overhead) over the 2nd (low), because the 1st hit does a LOT more damage than the 2nd one.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, one silver lining on blocking DF+2 is that you're spaced pretty much perfectly that you can stop Doomsday on the ground with b+1 or in the air with d+2 depending on what he does next. So this really is a good time to breathe a bit and OBSERVE Doomsday. See whether he favors backing off or pushing his luck after that mixup. And if you get a good read, for the love of God, finish your combo and save your meter.

You can reversal super between the d+1 and the DF+2 if he does that string, but unless it's going to END THE MATCH, it is a FOOLISH waste of meter to do so. You threw away four precious pushblocks/ MB b+3s for 33% damage. You DESERVE whatever frame trap hell Doomsday puts you through when he inevitably gets back in.
 

Ben Reed

Marine Biologist
Quick tidbit regarding Killer Frost:

You CANNOT bait her wakeup slide with Water Shield. It just doesn't work.

The first thing that sucks is that her slide recovers so fast on absorb that she can block all your punishes even if you drop your shield ASAP. No b+12~splash or anything like that. So you may conclude "okay I'll just spend a bar to blow her up with Water Shield MB, what the hell. Not the best thing, but it'll spook her."

But Water Shield MB doesn't work on wakeup slide because she has enough invincibility on wakeup slide to flat-out BEAT Water Shield MB. Not even a trade. Since Aquaman loses his armor IMMEDIATELY (apparently) upon cancelling Water Shield into the MB blast (which has a GREAT hitbox but not a lot of active frames), and KF still has some BEEFY invulnerability, she'll just plow right through. You'll see the splash, but Aquaman just gets launched.

EDIT: Actually, you CAN punish her slide recovery with Water Shield MB if you do it as LATE as possible. But it's still EXTREMELY inefficient compared to MB b+3.

So if you want to make KF pay for a predicted wakeup slide, you HAVE to use MB b+3/f+3. Preferably b+3, because she tends to slide right under MB f+3 because Aquaman hops. But MB b+3 will work, just don't be too slow to release, or she'll recover in time to block.

But just to be clear, Water Shield MB works fine on NON-WAKEUP slide. No wakeup invincibility = shield beats slide. But you're still better off using MB b+3 in those situations because you get a full combo for the same meter.

-----------------------

Here's another bait I've been playing with for KF wakeup slide, doesn't seem like a catch-all thing, but can be useful to know:

After any combo ending in f+2 1+3 or 223, you can wait about half a second, then jump backwards against a slide-happy Frost. If the player takes the bait and slides, you can hit KF with crossup jump 1 into full combo. The timing can be a little tricky because of the low hitstun from jump 1, but it is possible.
 
Online black adams will not have the spacing to hit you where it is safe, more importantly dont be in the range where it will hit below the waist, and if you are you have to know he wants to do it, then armor b3 that shit. And Punishing is very far from undoable online.

thats not quite true though. Online things can change quite a bit from game to game with the same person even second to second. I can do consistent offline punishes for quite a few moves but example DS sword flip online I have 3 frames to punish with grundy and sometimes they easily jump away other times i easily punish them. I think the key is he's trying to treat online too much like offline and you just can't. It has a random variable. Go for the punishes that work offline and hope for the best.
 

dabuz

Noob
Advice on the Green Lantern MU? I always feel afraid to do something because of the threat of Lantern's Might.

Also, the writeup on the Doomsday MU was really helpful Ben.
 
Advice on the Green Lantern MU? I always feel afraid to do something because of the threat of Lantern's Might.

Also, the writeup on the Doomsday MU was really helpful Ben.
Green Lantern is actually a really good matchup for Aquaman. Would recommend if in a blocking position to block low and react to an overhead. If Lantern's Might misses you get a full combo, and if you block that cylinder thing he rides that is also full combo punishable (but be careful he can act on wiff when he lands).

Lantern's Mobility is really terrible, so I really don't consider him much of a threat. He cannot go airborn in neutral because of the AA Aquaman has. I believe his b13 string can be interrupted by an armored B3, and the same for his overhead string. If timed properly, you can exchange his air Missile for your Trident Toss, which is a great trade for you. Easily 6-4 for Aquaman.
 
Personally I feel Killer Frost is the worst matchup for him from what I have seen. Have to be super careful about checking Trident Seismos as it can be punished hard by her Iceberg Attack (especially with Meter). Also her wakeup game is surprisingly good so make sure your timing is really crisp or she will get out to safety.

Aquaman also doesn't deal super well with really strong pressure, and a really good Killer Frost can apply a ridiculous sum of pressure using Trait Cancels.
 

dabuz

Noob
Personally I feel Killer Frost is the worst matchup for him from what I have seen. Have to be super careful about checking Trident Seismos as it can be punished hard by her Iceberg Attack (especially with Meter). Also her wakeup game is surprisingly good so make sure your timing is really crisp or she will get out to safety.

Aquaman also doesn't deal super well with really strong pressure, and a really good Killer Frost can apply a ridiculous sum of pressure using Trait Cancels.
This x 1000.
 
Superman seems like it could be pretty tough, but it may be even.
I think at this point most are playing the Superman MU really badly. They are just not handling the air laser appropriately and are not utilizing the tools the game provides to deal with said spam (especially if Superman has no meter).

I believe as the game evolves there will be more an more methods out to deal with Superman which will make him a solid but not S Tier Character people are making him out to be.

In terms of the Aquaman Matchup, I feel it is slightly in Superman's favor at the moment. But if all things remain the a few months from now I feel it will be in Aquaman's favor.