A few gameplay tweaks .. yes or no?

[Slamtastic]

I support the idea of fixing the throw system.

Just make it one break command (the throw command itself).

Also a fix that would be good for the game IMO:

Reduce the cost of Block Breaker to half that of Breaker, that way it's feasible to actually use to fight the constant pressure that most of the cast can put on you. Plus, block one hit > Block Breaker can become something of a "decent" universal "get off me" on wakeup, in case certain characters have particularly bad armored EX specials to wake up with.

As far as chip damage: Chip on everything is cool, but chip shouldn't kill, that way there's potential for amazingly hype comebacks.

 

[RM AtK!]

ummmm while i will agree with some ppls anti airs being nearly impossible to do on some of the casts jumpins ex; johnny cage with devorah / kungjin etc...

everything else you said is like a trademark of mk.. welcome to mortal kombat m8. if you want what you described you better go to sf4 o_o

 

[TotteryManx]

I 100% agree about breaking throws and I'm not a big fan of the guessing 50/50's. Some people in this thread are saying, "it's how MK is," well, it can always make some changes and still be MK. Making a couple of tweaks would not make it a SF clone lol. There are a ton of things that separate the two as is. Making strong anti airs for all characters is not a bad thing at all. Jumping shouldn't be rewarded in ANY fighting game.

 

[KNX]

The throw system is fucking stupid.

The mind game on the throws should be based entirely on the direction you choose to throw. Then the tech system would at least require a read or awareness of the situation.

Having this, on top of the fact that you can't break throws whilst blocking makes it pointless. To actually intentionally break a throw you need to make a read on whether it's coming and release block, which opens you up to eating a fast low or mid or overhead that leads to big damage and will likely put you back in a guessing game.

The rest of your gripes are what sets this fighter aside from the others, I don't think those things need to be changed, but throws may as well not be breakable the way they are now.

 

[tatterbug4]

I agree for the most part but I like guard damage. Nrs likes to have characters that focus on chipping people to death . also the throw system is ridiculous

 

[BillStickers]

I only played TTT2 for a minute, but I'm pretty sure there are 2 different throws in Tekken as well and the window to tech is MUUUUUUUCH smaller.

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

No i ment just 1 button for general throws .. now its a unseeable 50/50 cuz there is no way to see what throw they are doing .. one can only guess.

and yes you are right .. I have to deal with it .. I'd really like to see other peoples thoughts on my post tho

you can press 1 and 3 at the same time to eliminate the guessing factor, although there should definitely be a bigger window where you can break the throw

 

[Peckapowa]

Honestly anti airs should be a staple.

I don't understand nrs thinking on 50% of the strings. Some moves have grwat reach, are quick, safe, and a mixup/ launcher, while others have Shiite reach, don't launch, aren't a mixup and are like -18. 50/50s are dumb I. Risk reward. My feeling wh n I look at this game is that whomever designed these aspects is not a logical person. They just did mocap and said hey this looks cool and threw it in.

 

[C-Sword]

I agree about #3.

In MK9, the overhead or low would normally be the 2nd or 3rd hit of a string. MKX is taking the whole guessing game to a whole new level.

 

[villainous monk]

Hey all

After playing the game for about two weeks I wanted to know other peoples thoughts on this.

As a tournament tekken player I really like solid gameplay and logics fundamental wise.
Now I know MK is a totally diffferent game so PLEASE TAKE NOTICE OF THIS before any bashing bla bla bla.
thnx

Okay so a few things that bother me ( maybe im just not familiair enough with my * complaints? * but i will try to back them up.

thnx in advance

so .. here we go

1. the throw system

Okay this one is just THE most unlogical mechanic in the game for me.
So we have 2 kinds of throws .. cool .. however .. they are both the same animation , but do have 2 different breaks?
furthermore i cant duck them unless i release block .. so you are always open for mids .. and you cannot break a throw while holding block .. this PLUS the fact that throws have to be broken REALLY fast and even on break .. they do 2% dmg .. well ..

now for backing this up .. Ive watched some tournaments and seeing a throwbreak is really rare .. meaning that even the topplayers really struggle with this

the solution for this imo ?

- breaking a throw while holding block should be possible
- 1 button break
- throw break window is fine for me
- get rid off the 2% dmg while breaking a throw


2. Guard damage

Now i know this is oldschool and really MK's thing .. but NRS said they wanted to appeal more to the tournament play.
so this is kind of logical to me .. specials can do guard dmg, thats a given.
but normals as well? This dramaticly decreases the comeback factor but the worst thing is .. having knowledge about high low overheads strings or block punishers is almost useless on low life, getting a knockdown is a guaranteed loss cuz you cannot block anything cuz you will get chipped to death.

solution imo

- only specials can do guard dmg
- this will lead to deeper gameplay since having character knowledge means so much more and will definetly define the yolo's from the solids.
- fundamentals like #1 throwbreaking and character knowledge will actually have meaning cuz one player cannot just go in and chip you to death with anything , they actually need to consider mixups.

3. Overhead strings and low strings into combo.

Now I know MK is fast paced game.
how ever , given the fact that overheads and lows are VERY fast in this game and can lead to BIG damage ( for ex. raiden ) i think this is a bit much. I would like to see * honest * overheads like kitana's b2. Just one simple overhead move that gives knockdown. it will stop your opponent from crouch guarding all the time, and it also stops the insane 50/50 mixups like a cassie / erron black / raiden etc. Ive seen tournament where players ONLY trust on this and do anything else .. here is absolutely no fundamental play in terms of skill .. its just repeating a 50/50 all over again and this ( for me ) get old really quick .. cuz u are forced to do armor cuz you cannot react on these overheads. ( maybe there are people that can but i see the topplayers like cd jr / tom brady not react as well .. same applies for throw teching ) subzero's b2 is one of the slower overheads and 95% of the players didnt block it against tom brady's corner iceclone pressure ..

solution imo

- overheads should be single moves not leading into combo. leading into knockdown or standing plus frames on hit is fine

4. Anti airs

Ok well .. this is where I think it gets dangerous .. but i think all the characters should have a good anti air without the cost of one meter. example is goro's uppercut .. try setting sub / scorp to jump kick in practice and anti air with goro ON reaction .. you will see that you have to react insanely quick .. and this applies for more characters .. I'd like to see a universal anti air move for all chars that is really unsafe on block .. but does have invincible anti air frames ala dragonpunch ( yea yea i know please dont start )
this will stop all the jumping and gives player who have better fundamentals an advantage cuz they actually are more skilled.

and for the haters NO .. i do not like streetfighter at all .. im not trying to make MK into streetfighter .. im just sharing my opinions.


solution imo

give every char a solid anti air to maintain ground control
this will lead into a footsie paced game

5. projectile trading

this .. well i dnno .. not much to say , I'd like to see it but i dont mind as much as well .. I guess this is debatable.

6. Armor move should not absorb life but be fully invincible.
This may sound to strong but think about it .. if you are on 1% life .. and have 3 bars .. you are pretty much dead .. when an armor move doesnt absorb life it will create more depth even in close life situations.

These should be very punishable on block offcc.

Well thats it guys

Imo these things together will make this the perfect game ( to me ) because having fundamentals and good reactions actually means something. Putting in time in the lab will be rewarding and well .. I think this will make the game even better.
This game is superfun to play and i really enjoy it. I hope everyone enjoyed this story , and well .. share your thoughts?

Ow and PS

if you have some super awesome tech you want to share with me and everyone else how all my troubles i pointed out are nullified .. let me know

!!! ( maybe im just not aware of the basics .. could be but i havent found much to counter these .. )

thanks for reading and dont hate .. just share your thoughts

Hmm good points.
1. The throw system is ok. Basically if you can't break the throw by pressing 1 button or the throw button then you need to figure that out. A very same solution for everybody is to look at your progression stats. I think my throw stats are at level 4 or 5 which for only a few weeks is good since I don't like to abuse it because it forces the other player to always anticipate the throws coming. Thus I lose my advantage when I grab them off a wiff or crouching turtle. One button. One Break. One more win. During block would make the game too easy and eliminates the use or strategy of throwing. Besides most characters need to abuse throws because of teleports and great mix up games other characters have. Good point though.

2. Same argument for guard damage too. Normals flow into great block strings which creates great pressure off of the chip damage that it is caused. Beautiful stuff too. Especially when you end it with a throw.

3. Overheads I'm with you. I want EVERY CHARACTER should have one. NO consequences or punishments like losing meter or health. Just because some have no overheads but either deal or damage or have a better... whatever. There should be chance to have that option to use it has a basic move. I've always thought d2 was the greatest thing about MK. Now a U2 would be a really nice idea as well. Let's see if that don't change things up a bit and create brand new tech, strings, combos, punishments and just plain ideas.

4. I'll take it a step further. If characters can teleport or disappear or basically go of screen. Then the other characters Should have anti air. Period.

5. Nah. This aint Street Fighter. Don't need that in MK. Nah dawg. Nah.

6. Armor is just that. Armor. It should be used carefully and wisely. Either on wake up. Reversals or how ever you choose to use it. No Invincible Armor like my favorite Kung Fu movie of the same title. Nah we don't really need to make it as such because it really would take away from the game play and some moves have more frames for start up that would match, wiff, or down right cleanly beat armor. Like Kung Jin's ex dive kick won't beat Commando Kano's ex choke a bitch. don't need two Invincible Armor's beating each other and wiffing. Kinda like trading projectiles.

Yo... Awesome post and this sounds like a great thread. Really good points.

Check out that movie. I'm going to watch it right now before I hit the lab. Invincible Armor.

 

[THTB]

I come from competitive Tekken and i've understood and accepted what MK is , your view is to make it a really generalized game , the cool and good thing about MK is that characters play differently from each other , if you make throws breakable while blocking and with 1 button you basically take out any decent mixups characters like Kitana have , taking out chip damage indirectly nerfs frametrap characters like Johnny Cage ( what would be the point of fistcuff JC? ) . Being chipped to death is what it is otherwise you'd have to end a match with a special / throw / OH low mixup some characters instead thrive on having long range normal mid and now they gotta get a mixup to end the round.

Anti airs is a delicate subject , personally i think upclose monsters should have good anti airs not everyone in the cast , being unable to deal with jump attacks can be a weakness in a overall good character.

Everyone having an overhead single hitting knockdown would make oh low mixup characters non existant and will basically give the edge to footsies / zoning characters and invincible *armor* deters the reward from getting a knockdown or a frametrap , i'd be ok with more air invincibility on things like air throws.

Point is that a "tournament" game doesn't have to be about every character gets the same odds at winning through being similar to each other , this game rewards many kinds of playstyle and that's the fun part of it and what it will make it thrive in tournaments.

Bingo.

 

[RunwayMafia]

In regards to throw teching, I dont mind the 50/50 aspect, its the fact you cant be blocking.

I scream when players do a jip into throw. Who in their right mind would let go of block at that moment? I believe throws should be strong but not this deep.

I could tech throws in Ultra and Inj but I dont think Ive landed an INTENTIONAL throw tech yet in MKX, lol.

 

[RunwayMafia]

Also, I believe strong mix up characters with fast OH/LOW starters that lead to big damage or even vortexes should be full combo punishable when blocked.

You should be rewarded when you block that shit and they should be rewarded for landing it.

 

[STRYKIE]

I only played TTT2 for a minute, but I'm pretty sure there are 2 different throws in Tekken as well and the window to tech is MUUUUUUUCH smaller.

The universal throws in Tekken start up at 21 frames and emphasize the reach of the reach of the left, right or both arms as to how you tech accordingly.

And no the teching window definitely isn't smaller, certainly not in modern Tekken games T5 onwards.

Anyway. personally I don't find it that big of a deal in MK though, I feel like if you can read a throw, you have plenty of reliable options other than teching anyway. Maaaaybe NRS could remedy not being able to tech while blocking so that we don't end up with Cyrax's 50/50 again though......

 

[TheIrishFGCguy]

Also, I believe strong mix up characters with fast OH/LOW starters that lead to big damage or even vortexes should be full combo punishable when blocked.

But then how is SonicFox supposed to win tournaments?

I kid, I kid.

 

[Brutal Chimney]

I only played TTT2 for a minute, but I'm pretty sure there are 2 different throws in Tekken as well and the window to tech is MUUUUUUUCH smaller.

and yet they're still pretty useless, doing shit damage and they never land. the problem about teching throws is that its a 50/50 for the person throwing it as well and he's already taking a risk because if his throw whiffs he's going to be hurting bad. thats where the risk for him should lie not wondering if the person spazzing out on the escape is going to guess right and put him at disadvantage.

 

[KNX]

I only played TTT2 for a minute, but I'm pretty sure there are 2 different throws in Tekken as well and the window to tech is MUUUUUUUCH smaller.

There are 3 different throws break options in Tekken. (1, 2 and 1+2)

The break window for throws in Tekken is typically 15 frames, couple this with throws that range in speed from 10 to 14 frames, then you get at least 25 frames to react to and break a throw. Proven to be perfectly doable, though only with a significant amount of practice.

Does anybody have the break window frames for MK? Not that it matters I guess, the only time you get to react to a throw is when you are caught standing but not blocking. >_>

The throw breaking system in Tekken is infinitely more logical. In this game they flat out make no sense, outside of combos at least.

 

[vicious1024]

Throws
I completely agree that throws should be broken by a single command (1+3, perhaps). You shouldn't, however, be able to throw tech while blocking.

Since most throws are broken because the player coincidentally hit the right button as they were being thrown (most likely trying to attack with something that was too slow to beat a throw), allowing the player to tech throws while blocking means that they would be able to simply mash tech while blocking.

Perhaps, if throws had priority over blocking. So when you attempt to tech a throw while blocking, your character whiffs something punishable.

In an case, throw teching should be something you do as a reaction. But, there shouldn't be multiple ways to tech a throw if the animations for them are all the same, as it creates an unnecessary mixup.

Guard Damage
I have to disagree here.

Not only is the way that Mortal Kombat handles guard damage part of it's identity, it isn't really problematic in it's current state. Changing it isn't going to make the game any more or less competitive, and would only be to suit player preference.

Overhead and Low Strings into Combos
I kind of agree here.

I don't mind overheads and lows going into combos, but I think they could be better balanced. Slightly slower startup and/or more recovery on block, maybe.

Anti-airs
Some characters could use a few changes to their anti-air options, but I don't think a reliable option is something every character should have. Some character archetypes are supposed to have weak defensive options as a means to balance their explosive offense.

Let's not forget that walking, running and backdashing are good evasive options in this game.

Projectile Trading
Not sure how I feel about this. I'd have to see it in action to form an opinion.

I will say this, however: there is a character whose classic move is a lot stronger now because it can eat projectiles.

Armor Moves Being Invincible
Having zero options to deal with situations where a loss is imminent is frustrating, but I don't think that making armored moves impervious to damage is the proper solution.

One of the things Netherrealm has yet to fully adopt is the proper usage of invincibility frames. Not just complete invincibility, but throw, strike, projectile, lower-body, upper-body, etc. as a means to add more utility to certain moves.

For example, rather than giving Lui Kang's Dragon Kick armor, why not give it projectile invincibility on the first X amount of frames This would keep it from being a completely invincible wakeup option, and allow him a means to deal with being chipped on wakeup.

 

[Voodoo]

I didn't play much mk9; where there as many 50/50s?

 

[Chrishaspads]

My biggest issue was the "no chip damage on normals" thing. For some characters, this is their entire playstyle and makes them unique.




For me this falls under the same category. Some characters rely heavily on that chip damage and getting up close.

for example, sorcerer quan chi

 

[Briggs8417]

This game needs a push block.

I'm pretty sure this game has a push block.

 

[Shark Tank]

Needs zoning buffed. Everything else I have no on the record opinion on.

 

[Slamtastic]

Errmm... The game HAS pushblock.

It's called Block Breaker.

I'm pretty sure this game has a push block.

Clearly it's not effective enough if people forget it exists.

Why do Alpha Counters (Block Breaker) take the same stamina and meter as Breakers?

The only benefit you get for breaking on block is the damage of a hit vs the chip from it.

You'd think that your reward for the successful block as opposed to getting opened up would include a less costly get off me option.

The inclusion of a method to avoid getting chipped to death by safe pressure on block is great, but so far its been handled worse than the Injustice pushblocks were, because the cost is too high, it's not being used.

 

[Briggs8417]

Clearly it's not effective enough if people forget it exists.

Why do Alpha Counters (Block Breaker) take the same stamina and meter as Breakers?

The only benefit you get for breaking on block is the damage of a hit vs the chip from it.

You'd think that your reward for the successful block as opposed to getting opened up would include a less costly get off me option.

The inclusion of a method to avoid getting chipped to death by safe pressure on block is great, but so far its been handled worse than the Injustice pushblocks were, because the cost is too high, it's not being used.

I think the payment is a little steep for sure. I'm just point in out that it exists. The option is available.

 

[moraelgamed]

Hey all

After playing the game for about two weeks I wanted to know other peoples thoughts on this.

As a tournament tekken player I really like solid gameplay and logics fundamental wise.
Now I know MK is a totally diffferent game so PLEASE TAKE NOTICE OF THIS before any bashing bla bla bla.
thnx

Okay so a few things that bother me ( maybe im just not familiair enough with my * complaints? * but i will try to back them up.

thnx in advance

so .. here we go

1. the throw system

Okay this one is just THE most unlogical mechanic in the game for me.
So we have 2 kinds of throws .. cool .. however .. they are both the same animation , but do have 2 different breaks?
furthermore i cant duck them unless i release block .. so you are always open for mids .. and you cannot break a throw while holding block .. this PLUS the fact that throws have to be broken REALLY fast and even on break .. they do 2% dmg .. well ..

now for backing this up .. Ive watched some tournaments and seeing a throwbreak is really rare .. meaning that even the topplayers really struggle with this

the solution for this imo ?

- breaking a throw while holding block should be possible
- 1 button break
- throw break window is fine for me
- get rid off the 2% dmg while breaking a throw


2. Guard damage

Now i know this is oldschool and really MK's thing .. but NRS said they wanted to appeal more to the tournament play.
so this is kind of logical to me .. specials can do guard dmg, thats a given.
but normals as well? This dramaticly decreases the comeback factor but the worst thing is .. having knowledge about high low overheads strings or block punishers is almost useless on low life, getting a knockdown is a guaranteed loss cuz you cannot block anything cuz you will get chipped to death.

solution imo

- only specials can do guard dmg
- this will lead to deeper gameplay since having character knowledge means so much more and will definetly define the yolo's from the solids.
- fundamentals like #1 throwbreaking and character knowledge will actually have meaning cuz one player cannot just go in and chip you to death with anything , they actually need to consider mixups.

3. Overhead strings and low strings into combo.

Now I know MK is fast paced game.
how ever , given the fact that overheads and lows are VERY fast in this game and can lead to BIG damage ( for ex. raiden ) i think this is a bit much. I would like to see * honest * overheads like kitana's b2. Just one simple overhead move that gives knockdown. it will stop your opponent from crouch guarding all the time, and it also stops the insane 50/50 mixups like a cassie / erron black / raiden etc. Ive seen tournament where players ONLY trust on this and do anything else .. here is absolutely no fundamental play in terms of skill .. its just repeating a 50/50 all over again and this ( for me ) get old really quick .. cuz u are forced to do armor cuz you cannot react on these overheads. ( maybe there are people that can but i see the topplayers like cd jr / tom brady not react as well .. same applies for throw teching ) subzero's b2 is one of the slower overheads and 95% of the players didnt block it against tom brady's corner iceclone pressure ..

solution imo

- overheads should be single moves not leading into combo. leading into knockdown or standing plus frames on hit is fine

4. Anti airs

Ok well .. this is where I think it gets dangerous .. but i think all the characters should have a good anti air without the cost of one meter. example is goro's uppercut .. try setting sub / scorp to jump kick in practice and anti air with goro ON reaction .. you will see that you have to react insanely quick .. and this applies for more characters .. I'd like to see a universal anti air move for all chars that is really unsafe on block .. but does have invincible anti air frames ala dragonpunch ( yea yea i know please dont start )
this will stop all the jumping and gives player who have better fundamentals an advantage cuz they actually are more skilled.

and for the haters NO .. i do not like streetfighter at all .. im not trying to make MK into streetfighter .. im just sharing my opinions.


solution imo

give every char a solid anti air to maintain ground control
this will lead into a footsie paced game

5. projectile trading

this .. well i dnno .. not much to say , I'd like to see it but i dont mind as much as well .. I guess this is debatable.

6. Armor move should not absorb life but be fully invincible.
This may sound to strong but think about it .. if you are on 1% life .. and have 3 bars .. you are pretty much dead .. when an armor move doesnt absorb life it will create more depth even in close life situations.

These should be very punishable on block offcc.

Well thats it guys

Imo these things together will make this the perfect game ( to me ) because having fundamentals and good reactions actually means something. Putting in time in the lab will be rewarding and well .. I think this will make the game even better.
This game is superfun to play and i really enjoy it. I hope everyone enjoyed this story , and well .. share your thoughts?

Ow and PS

if you have some super awesome tech you want to share with me and everyone else how all my troubles i pointed out are nullified .. let me know

!!! ( maybe im just not aware of the basics .. could be but i havent found much to counter these .. )

thanks for reading and dont hate .. just share your thoughts

I agree on most of what you are saying. People here will say that you are describing Street Fighter while as a matter of fact 99% of Good technical 2D games are like that. Street Fighter, King of Fighters, anime games for the most part , etc,etc.

It is just that it seems that there is a Street Fighter phobia in here. Illogical gameplay design is part of the Mortal Kombat identity at this point and if the audience and the series fans are loving it then more power to them.

It just feels like a terrible design where anti-airs are meh, the scenario of the opponent jumping in with an amazing jump attack that will jail you on block into a 50/50 has honestly gotten stale really fast. This seem further enhanced by some amazing jumping attacks like Kung Jin has for examples.

I dunno, overall i agree with you. I am not having as much fun with it as i did with MK9 or even Injustice. The game at this point does favor constant 50/50 BS which isn't for me.