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MAT: Consensus Top 3 (5/29/16)

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
MU chart is the ONLY thing that matters, but that's just my honest and humble opinion. We're just gonna have to agree to disagree. lol
Tournament results would be fine, except that anything can happen in a short set, so the results aren't the most reliable, imo.
 

ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
Also @ismael4790 Cage is not only S tier in A-List, but also Stunt Double is (soap bar in my mouth), and has considerably less execution.
I think the main thing which makes Stunt Double so good now is his absurd corner hard to block, it's really game changing. Without it, he's very solid and good, but not top tier good. He still has no way to make 113 safe as A-List, that's huge.

Maybe he will lose his htb, and he should. Same as Takeda, but he won't xD
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Hmm.
Funny how top 3 in this game is so much closer than the last 2 games were in terms of overall balance
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
I think the main thing which makes Stunt Double so good now is his absurd corner hard to block, it's really game changing. Without it, he's very solid and good, but not top tier good. He still has no way to make 113 safe as A-List, that's huge.

Maybe he will lose his htb, and he should. Same as Takeda, but he won't xD
Yeah but he does have it so he is.
 

Skedar70

Noob
Character placement should be based on MU, not character's tools
I have no idea why tiers should be based on matchups. I mean matchup numbers are also hard to come by. We will see someone being outplayed claiming a matchup is 3-7. I think tools are more on point since this is what actually determines if a matchup is good or bad.
 

Skedar70

Noob
Dude, it isn't just Hayatei. It's Red Raptor, St9rm in the EU and others. Top 3 at combo breaker last night was piercing, ronin and shirai ryu, Takeda took two out of the top three spots, and that is just one of multiple examples of Takeda's strong tournament placings in both the online and offline settings.

You might reach a different conclusion if you are doing an abstract analysis of character tools, but tournament results speak quite clearly.
Latin America also has a top takeda in c88 faster
 

wsj515

This is my billionth life cycle.
No they are equally good one is just easier to use
I disagree, in a vacuum you are right, but there is always the human element and human error which cannot be discounted. If two character's are exactly the same but one is easier to use, or harder to make mistakes with, then I definitely think that it should be considered better.
 

Tweedy

Noob
I don't like judging results because it has more to do with the player.

If Dragon and Hayatei swapped characters, do you really think that Hayatei couldn't have gotten the same result? Just an example.

Takeda is damn good but I don't know if it's fair to say that he's definitely better than several characters. IMO Ronin isn't as good as SR overall. Ronin might do well vs SR specifically, but SR definitely has a better MU chart. Again, just my opinion.
 
I disagree, in a vacuum you are right, but there is always the human element and human error which cannot be discounted. If two character's are exactly the same but one is easier to use, or harder to make mistakes with, then I definitely think that it should be considered better.
Well opinions I guess when I ask who is the best in a game for example I want to know who has the best tools not who is good and easy
 

ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
I disagree, in a vacuum you are right, but there is always the human element and human error which cannot be discounted. If two character's are exactly the same but one is easier to use, or harder to make mistakes with, then I definitely think that it should be considered better.
Completely agree.
 

YoloRoll1stHit

Publicly Educated
I disagree, in a vacuum you are right, but there is always the human element and human error which cannot be discounted. If two character's are exactly the same but one is easier to use, or harder to make mistakes with, then I definitely think that it should be considered better.
To place a character in tier list, we all have to assume that character is played at max potential
 

wsj515

This is my billionth life cycle.
To place a character in tier list, we all have to assume that character is played at max potential
A vortex character's "max potential" would be guessing right every time, but that obviously never happens. Why is safety considered such a good attribute of a string/special? Because it provides margin for error. If you mess up, which people do all the time at the highest level, that mess up needs to either be less costly or less likely to happen. Sure a character's toolset can outshine another character's ease of use, but if two characters are relatively even in the strength of their tools, then you'd be crazy to pick the more execution heavy character of the two.
 

MsMiharo

Kuff Bano
A vortex character's "max potential" would be guessing right every time, but that obviously never happens. Why is safety considered such a good attribute of a string/special? Because it provides margin for error. If you mess up, which people do all the time at the highest level, that mess up needs to either be less costly or less likely to happen. Sure a character's toolset can outshine another character's ease of use, but if two characters are relatively even in the strength of their tools, then you'd be crazy to pick the more execution heavy character of the two.
A vortex character is judged by whether or not it's safe since a guess is a guess. A safe vortex > an unsafe one. Again, it's not about who wins a set, it's about judging tools and how they interact. For instance, Lao's spin is a good tool. In the Alien MU he can use it to punish flip and, if EX'd, the tail snag. That's a specific MU thing. Does the MU change if the Alien player never uses those tools?

Execution is an aspect of human error. We're not judging players. Otherwise cancel characters would've dropped in tier because of the change to breakers, costing both players stamina, since the player might not notice they're out of stamina.
 

MK_Al

Noob
Dude, it isn't just Hayatei. It's Red Raptor, St9rm in the EU and others. Top 3 at combo breaker last night was piercing, ronin and shirai ryu, Takeda took two out of the top three spots, and that is just one of multiple examples of Takeda's strong tournament placings in both the online and offline settings.

You might reach a different conclusion if you are doing an abstract analysis of character tools, but tournament results speak quite clearly.
I play st9rm on a regular basis since the game came out and I spent quite a few hours in the lab with SR takeda. In my opinion this specific variation is probably top 10, but no top 5 material. It seems to me that there is a lack of mu knowledge that leads people to believe he is top 5 or even better.
Granted, I lose a lot when playing st9rm, but it is definitely the player
 
But isn't "safety" just margin for error for a human player making a wrong guess? I'm not saying you shouldn't judge tools, I'm saying you can't discount execution in how viable a character is.
a guess is a guess there are no science about it it s not human error it s mathematical