Crispy cancels...

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Been using liu since day 1 and i never really found his run cancels hard. F44 fbrc f44 on hit gave me trouble months ago though. A list imo is thr hardest, being absolutely perfect with him is just a bit difficult for me.

so you never mess it up? Do you do esl?

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Or ya know, Yang and Blanka's multiple 1f-2f link BnB combos that are totally essential to.playing the character at all.. At least in Yangs case.. Or Abel who's ENTIRE offense is predicated off a 1f link.

Don't forget Sakura also

there is a reason why plinking is a thing in sf. It makes a 1-2 frame link a 2-4 frame link by adding a frame to either side of the actual input.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Someone has probably brought this up but if they didn't here's a quick thing about HQT pressure. His + frames off his laser cancels are eaten up by his slow normals. Any of his cancels can be armored out of, often on reaction. The only one I can think of that can't be armored or low profiled is 4 laser cancel into F1.

Are they easy? Yeah kinda. I don't see how Predator's is considered easy when you say Tremor's is too hard when they're the same dd to cancel. Unless you talking about his ex punch cancels which are still easy. (Of course that's all subjective)

But I agree Predator is still crazy good. Just throwing in my two cents.

Talking about his armor cancels and doing them fast enough to get 2 cancels out in one block string is super hard.

 

[Crimson Panther]

Talking about his armor cancels and doing them fast enough to get 2 cancels out in one block string is super hard.

For sure. Especially since he kinda suffers from what Predator does in terms of getting low profiled even when he has plus frames like d1/3 into standing 1 or in Tremor's case F1 and 2. Of course low laser negates that but if it's blocked Predator's rather short turn is over.

Tremor's ex punch cancels are (of course imo) kinda useless outside of Lava Skin Metallic since that variation benefits most off meterless damage. Aftershock and especially Crystalline rely on meter for OTG or other things like Crystalline's low launcher. But it is a matter of playstyle. I have the unpopular opinion Tremor doesn't need the OTG in any variation. And I play Tremor. But again to each their own in terms of out meter is spent. To me Tremor isn't really a pressure character that should rely on plus frames for chip damage as much as a character like Kang.

 

[jaythatruth]

there is a reason why plinking is a thing in sf. It makes a 1-2 frame link a 2-4 frame link by adding a frame to either side of the actual input.

I know

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

I know

Then don't throw out statements like "1-2 frame links in sf...level up"

 

[jaythatruth]

Then don't throw out statements like "1-2 frame links in sf...level up"

I wasn't the one who said that, pass that blunt. I'm not gonna tell someone to level up. I'm ass at this game

 

[EntropicByDesign]

there is a reason why plinking is a thing in sf. It makes a 1-2 frame link a 2-4 frame link by adding a frame to either side of the actual input.

It's not that cut and dry, plinking too late does nothing. A p-link acts to queue the doubled input and push it out on the first available frame. It adds about a frame, if p-linked early. So its not a 1f link on the front and back , so to speak, its 1f of leniency on the pre-frame, but the nature of p-linking make it a skill in and of itself, requiring relatively precise timing on the button presses, as well as not being able to plink jabs without controller modification (you can plink any button with Select).

Plinking doesn't even really give you a full frame of leniency either, as it its a queuing mechanic. I know on most characters, when it comes to 1f links, plinking is on/off. I find it only slightly more consistent on, say, Abel's step kick x FP x CoD opening, than just hitting the button. (I tested, out of 100 attempts I hit it 71 times 'honest' and an even 80 plinking). Where-as plinking easier links like Yun's cr.MP x cr.MP x St.MP x lunge/upkick seems to be a lot more consistent.

What the issue with 1f links seems to be, is that if you plink on the pre-frame its fine. If you plink on the latter half of the frame preceding the pre-frame, it works as well,but if you plink late ON the frame, ie the exact timing that just hitting the button normally would have worked, its hit or miss. Sometimes the queue system delays and spits it out next frame and you miss, in essence, you aren't really gaining an entire extra frame, but about 2/3rds of one, but introducing another variable for failure, in the plink itself.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the spirit of your argument is wrong, because its not, plinking DOES make it easier, but its still ridiculously hard.

Sorry, Im not.trying to start a pissing contest between games or anything, I just saw some remarks about 3f links and , from someone who co-mains Yang, I had to respond lol.

My execution in MKx is NOTHING special, but I haven't really found anything I can land with at least moderate consistency after 30m or so practice. Like LKs f44 fbrv f44, I'm not gonna be busting that out online, but after reading about it, I.labbed.for 10m and was hitting it 2/10. That's obviously terrible, but that's with 10m of practice and I don't play LK at all, beyond the worst Flame Fist the world has ever known.

I personally think cancels are tedious and unnecessary.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

It's not that cut and dry, plinking too late does nothing. A p-link acts to queue the doubled input and push it out on the first available frame. It adds about a frame, if p-linked early. So its not a 1f link on the front and back , so to speak, its 1f of leniency on the pre-frame, but the nature of p-linking make it a skill in and of itself, requiring relatively precise timing on the button presses, as well as not being able to plink jabs without controller modification (you can plink any button with Select).

Plinking doesn't even really give you a full frame of leniency either, as it its a queuing mechanic. I know on most characters, when it comes to 1f links, plinking is on/off. I find it only slightly more consistent on, say, Abel's step kick x FP x CoD opening, than just hitting the button. (I tested, out of 100 attempts I hit it 71 times 'honest' and an even 80 plinking). Where-as plinking easier links like Yun's cr.MP x cr.MP x St.MP x lunge/upkick seems to be a lot more consistent.

What the issue with 1f links seems to be, is that if you plink on the pre-frame its fine. If you plink on the latter half of the frame preceding the pre-frame, it works as well,but if you plink late ON the frame, ie the exact timing that just hitting the button normally would have worked, its hit or miss. Sometimes the queue system delays and spits it out next frame and you miss, in essence, you aren't really gaining an entire extra frame, but about 2/3rds of one, but introducing another variable for failure, in the plink itself.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the spirit of your argument is wrong, because its not, plinking DOES make it easier, but its still ridiculously hard.

Sorry, Im not.trying to start a pissing contest between games or anything, I just saw some remarks about 3f links and , from someone who co-mains Yang, I had to respond lol.

My execution in MKx is NOTHING special, but I haven't really found anything I can land with at least moderate consistency after 30m or so practice. Like LKs f44 fbrv f44, I'm not gonna be busting that out online, but after reading about it, I.labbed.for 10m and was hitting it 2/10. That's obviously terrible, but that's with 10m of practice and I don't play LK at all, beyond the worst Flame Fist the world has ever known.

I personally think cancels are tedious and unnecessary.

Assuming all this is true, you just thought me a lot. The more you know people. The more you know.

 

[EntropicByDesign]

Then don't throw out statements like "1-2 frame links in sf...level up"

I mentioned SF and its links. I also never said *anything* about leveling up. I brought it up mostly for the sake of conversation and comparison, but also, to show that if the multiple 1-2f link combos in SF can be performed with tournament level accuracy , that the various RCs, be they 1-2-3-4 frame windows, can be as well with enough practice.

Lets not forget that many SF players do not p-link in the first place. Chris-G comes to mind and he mains Sakura. Have you seen him tatsu loop someone in tourney? I have, multiple times, all pure timing. I *think* Tokido doesn't? I cant remember, its one of the high-profile Asian players. Im too lazy to research it

Again though, I agree with your basic point. Pred getting what he gets for essentially a dash cancel is ludicrous, when other characters have to work so much harder and obtain less reward for it. Its an issue with Pred's design IMO. I dont know/care about arguing if he's top this or that, regardless of tier placement, he has too many tools and too few weaknesses IMO, and he doesn't have to work as hard for the control he exerts. I don't believe in artificial limitations on a characters power (ie, making a character SUPER strong, but SUPER hard to play) as a means of balance, but Pred is pushing it.

Id like to see RCs universalized and made slightly easier. Not braindead, but it really sucks that to get to the core of certain characters you have to practice such a small thing so heavily, and failing to do it correctly leads to pain.

 

[EntropicByDesign]

Assuming all this is true, you just thought me a lot. The more you know people. The more you know.

It is, at least to the best of my research on the matter.

I started SF knowing nothing about Plinking. Had never heard of it. The guy acting as my coach, for all his good intentions, has an odd, purist mindset where combos are two hits, footsies and AA's are ONLY THINGS IN THE GAME, and deep level game mechanics DO NOT EXIST WHIFF PUNISH AND YOU WIN EVO.

Now, he is VERY right in many ways, but unfortunately, high level play is when you bring ALL the elements at your disposal together. Fundamentals, understanding game mechanics, reads and conditioning, long ass, complicated combos, etc.

So any way, I was struggling like hell to knock out certain combos. Just could NOT do them. Started poking around, found p-linking, thought my troubles were over.. They weren't entirely, I was still asscrap at Abel. So I did some more research on p-linking and how it actually works. What I posted above is what I dug up from various forum posts from SRK, heard in videos, and was able to semi-verify through my own practice work.

I wish I had a single source to refer you to, to verify my post, but I don't have just one, like I said, that's what I compiled across multiple sources, but if you really tinker around in the game with timings and such, you can see it in action to a degree. This is all speculation of course, on everyone's part. Only Capcom's coders know exactly how the system works, but I believe that I posted to be a pretty accurate representation. There is a ton of misrepresentation and misunderstanding out there about p-linking. Most people just do it because someone told them to - they don't really understand what it does or how it works. When I first heard of p-linking I thought it worked in exactly the same way you described, but I was still hitting 2f links 'honest' more easily than 1f links p-linking. That got me poking around some.

Ultimately though, you are right in spirit, I was just arguing for the sake of it (I'm bored) lol, because in the end, regardless, thge point you were making was it makes it easier, and it absolutely DOES make it easier. I p-link normals in the neutral game. Ive forgotten how to friggen hit just *one* button.

 

[DrFolmer]

HQT is only A+

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Be sure to test against tech rolls. Tech rolling and waking up blows up most of these armor breaking setups.

Not in corner

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Alot of Predator up-playing going on in this thread lol. As easy as his cancels are that doesn't make him some super top tier character, that just means his cancels are easy. Even with his cancels and zoning, nobody is really doing shit with him in tournament.

I swear, TYM logic is some of the craziest I've ever seen.

Predator isn't even top 5 in this game. It's possible that he might not even be in the top 10

@cR WoundCowboy

 

[Undeadjim]

I play both Tremor and Jax and Tremors are much easier due to the nature of what you're trying to accomplish. With Tremor my main reason to RC is to jail, throw or do a separate string so all the cancels are dialed in.

Jax however you have to scout out hit confirming into 3B2 from F3, 123 and B3. You also have overhead into F3 which is quite iffy and any rocket on block is full combo punish.

Just my two cents I don't find any cancels that hard but I play on hitbox which helps me tremendously.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

So basically Liu Kang mains are asking us to get on our knees and worship them for the execution masters that they are?

 

[buyacushun]

Funny how Predator has been a force since release and some people are just finding out how the character works. He is a crazy good character and it makes me slightly glad I bought him . . . on PC. Who was even saying all "run" cancels are the same?

@AK L0rdoftheFLY Idk how Kobu Justu or High Tech cancels works but Raiden can't cancel his fireball ASAP. The fireball has to form. Do you know if any other characters work like that?

@SaltShaker If that Predator you're talking about is the guy that was there when I played, he said something like "Marvel gets me more hyped" and once I saw he played Predator that's all I needed to know about him. He's despicable lol. But how did you not know how easy Predator is to play lol? How many weeks have you been facing Predators in a row?

 

[Enexemander]

So basically Liu Kang mains are asking us to get on our knees and worship them for the execution masters that they are?

More like "Please don't argue from a position of ignorance."

 

[SaltShaker]

@SaltShaker If that Predator you're talking about is the guy that was there when I played, he said something like "Marvel gets me more hyped" and once I saw he played Predator that's all I needed to know about him. He's despicable lol. But how did you not know how easy Predator is to play lol? How many weeks have you been facing Predators in a row?

Yea he is one of the main ones lol. Annoying as shit.

I've probably fought Predator twice a week since August lol, and not once realized that people were dashing and not RC. Or maybe saw it but it didn't click to how stupid it was until now.

 

[SylverRye]

so you never mess it up? Do you do esl?

I rarely ever mess up any of lius cancels tbh. F44 fbrc f44 is very easy for me now. I DID play in esl before the start up in novemeber but i SUCK with xbox pad. I primarily play on ps4 lol

 

[xxsledgrenxx]

Let's cut the bullshit TYM.

There is so much miss information going around it makes me sick. The ideas of run cancels is specifically what I'm talking about. Can you name all the characters with them?

If you listed predator on your list you are dead wrong. Can we talk about predator cancels? I must admit I didn't know this until last night but when I figured it out I almost fell over. I was under the impression that HQT had the same run cancels as everyone else. I thought Burger King had godlike execution but then I tried it myself.

There is no run cancel. He can just dash out of it and be + frames. When a character like Kang dashes out he actually dashes and loses frames. The simplicity of this baffles me. Try it for yourself. Practice Liu Kang f44 fbrc f44 and then go practice predator 32 dash cancel 122. Easy mode.

HQT has pre patch Tanya teleport cancel pressure but easier and with more plus frames.

Next up is Jax. His cancels although they are true run cancels, they are soooooo easy. I think it's the DB motion but it doesn't take a hit box to do these 100% of the time. I figured it out in 5 minutes and haven't messed up yet everyday I practice Kang f44 fbrc f44 and am inconsistent.

A list cage has true run cancels that are difficult however off his "dizzy knee" f3, he can just easily rc out while holding 4 to hit confirm or be + frames. I hope this one was known already but FYI just the same. Respect to those that can do them consistently although I have seen dizzy mess them up time to time.



Anyways...my point is this, don't assume one thing equals another. Fbrc for Kang are not fbrc for predator. Some high execution characters like cage and devorah have them but most have something very different with totally different inputs.

End rant. #buffkang&tanya&nightwing

MKX cancels tier list

hardest to easiest

(Harder than they should be)
Devorah brood mother
Kang Dragon fire
Tremor
Cage a list

(Right where they should be)
Jacqui high tech
Raiden thunder God
Tanya kobu jutsu (only cause it got nerfed)

(Way too easy)
Devorah swarm queen
Scorp hell fire
Predator hqt
Ferra/torr ruthless
Erron Black marksman
Jax heavy weapons


Tell me if I missed something

Im legit salty about him saying dvorahs cancels were too easy when he dropped so many raiden cancels againt me ... crispy ? nah

 

[Kingshootahz]

Well idk about everyone else but I only call cancels crispy when they are nearly invisible and that does take a bit of skill

 

[I GOT HANDS]

True, but there's nothing worse to me than a super strong character that's super easy to use. Like it borderline disgust me. Not saying the have to be KOF level difficult, or that every top tier has to be A-List level of execution, but these are the types of games and characters I'm used to. Heihachi and Bryan Fury in Tekken, things like that. I'm used to more challenging characters in general because I need to work my brain in matches. So when I see "oh just dash for +frame pressure on an elite zoner" it just screams retardation to me. That's shitty game/character design.

When characters are already so strong, and can so simply and easily implement their offense and defense, it takes away from some of the experience for me. It's very difficult for me to use SQ D'Vorah and lose a close game to HQT and say "damn great way to outplay me" without saying "easy as shit top tier", and now it's gonna feel even worse. Any time I see that dash now I might throw up.

I definitely agree with essence of what your saying. I think the hard execution stuff should be for some dirt, and if you wanna unlock that stuff you should have to work for it. Cancels, iAFB, projectile converts, etc, are a really good example of something that shouldn't ever be piss easy, and should be a pay off for execution. However I don't think those characters should be inherently balanced higher because of it.

I also don't feel like you can look at ease to play as a reason for loss when you play a match, at least not once your comfortable. That all comes before that. It doesn't matter if we are comparing a hard character like Marksman or Swarm Queen, to an easy character like Quan Chi or Sonya. Once your comfortable, you're comfortable, simple as that - it simply takes longer to get to that point with certain characters.






Also, the post of mine you quoted. Fucking auto correct BUTCHERED it harder than anything I've ever seen. My bad, spelling was NOT on point last night

EDIT: if you say that last post aloud it souns like im Irish

SECOND EDIT: the stereotypical Irishman, with the whistles in the speech and shit

 

[EntropicByDesign]

I had to drive an hour and a half, but I found offline matches.

Of course this might be a setup and ima get butt touched. But maybe not.

Why is this relevant here? It's not but is the thread TYM opened too on my phone.

 

[trustinme]

I think it's about time we all admit that Mkx is the drizzling shits.
Enjoy your day people.