General/Other - Summoner VS Quan Chi bat Vortex training

[Tom Brady]

Stop acting like you didn't understand that in the post you quoted high risk meant weak defense in general, +14 on block from MB rune has nothing to do with Quan's defensive options. Tom grow up. Just because you got blown up by a Quan Chi player at Evo doesn't mean we need to nerf Quan. That Quan player lost at least 2 times after he beat you, because I didn't even see him in top 16. That means that pro players know how to deal with Quan. You didn't. And plus it is a pretty hard MU for Sub-Zero.
That pseudo unblockable was known to exist since like week one. Why didn't you complain then???????! Because stuff only needs to get nerfed if you get blown up by it?!)

No where did I say nerf. I only posted me in training mode against it. It was other players who saw it and feel its too strong. Look, we all know I am far from good at the game which i admit and I have only a small bit of knowledge of any character which includes my own. This has zero to do with a nerf, just my labbing in trying to defend against it. I am not opposed to the fact that I am just not that good at the game and this is fine. Pro players apparently have no issues with it I guess. I'm just not a pro player right now.

 

[legion666]

No where did I say nerf. I only posted me in training mode against it. It was other players wh saw it and feel its too strong. Look, we all know I suck at the game which i admit and have little knowledge of any character which includes my own. This has zero to do with a nerf, just my labbing in trying to defend against it. I am not opposed to the fact that I am just not that good at the game and this is fine. Pro players apparently have no issues with it I guess. I'm just not a pro player right now.

But you know TYM, if you post stuff like that it will always turn into a nerf petition) you are a great player. Far better than most on this site, myself included. The game is still new, no one knows how to deal with every MU and set up. Quan's offense is extremely hard to deal with! The best in the game, no doubt. But he has the worst defense in the game to compensate for that. Sub-Zero destroys him once he is in the corner. Just keep playing man, I am sure you will get great results eventually.

 

[M2Dave]

Pure zoning is HQT. This is literally like the Dave variation lol. Summoner used to own this until HQT hit its peak. HQT Shots, when combining all 3, May be the best zoning projectiles in the game. It's hell for a lot of characters to get in on, and when they do one B2 or an upshot on Ji leads to full combo and full screen all over again. The recovery on shots is godlike, allowing multiple shots and still block or full combo armor people's punish attempts on reaction. Reaction. That good. Disk and air disk to cover space is just as good. Catches any jumps for full combos, and on block allows free zoning or free space. Kills WU's, forcing them to block for more zoning. Amazing chip totals from zoning. EX Stab is the ultimate whiff punisher or trip guard punish into 40% and more zoning. I thought this was close until recently, and was skeptical until more discussion and exp made it obvious. No one can purely zone like HQT.

I held the same opinion until very recently. Summoner Quan Chi beats HQT Predator in the full screen zoning war. Trading with plasma shots using ordinary projectiles is almost impossible, but runes lack traveling speed. They always start up in 17 frames and usually trade with plasma shots in Quan Chi's favor. Furthermore, Quan Chi is the only character in the game who has the ability to perform significant damage full screen away. If the bat is activated and you have one bar, you can do 30% of unbreakable damage. You can even initiate the vortex full screen away if you have adequate resources. No other character has access to such tools. I do not have to discuss Quan Chi's non-zoning tools because I am certain you know how good they are.

I am strictly against any Quan Chi normalizations but would not mind if low bat hit mid at the expense of a slightly faster d+3 or a better teleport. The teleport, in particular, has the hitbox size of a toothpick. I am not asking for faster start up frames or armor on the way down, but why does the move literally go through opponents? Tall about lack of functionality! Quan Chi was abysmal in Mortal Kombat 9, yet the teleport was much better than what it is now.

 

[WakeUp DP]

Stop acting like you didn't understand that in the post you quoted high risk meant weak defense in general, +14 on block from MB rune has nothing to do with Quan's defensive options. Tom grow up. Just because you got blown up by a Quan Chi player at Evo doesn't mean we need to nerf Quan. That Quan player lost at least 2 times after he beat you, because I didn't even see him in top 16. That means that pro players know how to deal with Quan. You didn't. And plus it is a pretty hard MU for Sub-Zero.
That pseudo unblockable was known to exist since like week one. Why didn't you complain then???????! Because stuff only needs to get nerfed if you get blown up by it?!)

I only use Sorcerer so I'm not gonna pretend I know much about Summoner but it seems to me like that specific set up Tom showed its kinda OP.
It shouldn't be nerfed, but it should be "normalized" a bit.

I just wish they gave Quan a decent amored reversal even if it doesn't combo like Warlock's scop. And buff his D3 from 9frames lol to 7frames at least. This will make him fair and balanced imo.

@legion666 ^ If Quan gets his defense buff just a bit I don't think most of us would mind if they normalized one set up. Like making the bat hit mid instead of low.

 

[ATP2014]

I would be perfectly fine with buffing the armored Sky Drop, or his D3 so that he has an option to escape pressure. But his damage needs to be toned down so he doesn't do 40+ percent and knocks you full screen for a bar, and the bat needs to be changed to a mid.

 

[legion666]

I only use Sorcerer so I'm not gonna pretend I know much about Summoner but it seems to me like that specific set up Tom showed its kinda OP.
It shouldn't be nerfed, but it should be "normalized" a bit.

I just wish they gave Quan a decent amored reversal even if it doesn't combo like Warlock's scop. And buff his D3 from 9frames lol to 7frames at least. This will make him fair and balanced imo.

@legion666 ^ If Quan gets his defense buff just a bit I don't think most of us would mind if they normalized one set up. Like making the bat hit mid instead of low.

I would be fine with that, but the bat itself would have to be buffed in other ways if it doesn't hit low anymore. If it isn't a mix up tool anymore and it's use in zoning is limited a bit by a 60 frame cooldown I think it should work like Sinestro's trait then, which means it doesn't go away if Quan is hit. That would make his defense good at least while he has the bat. Either that or a functional armor attack. And a 7 frame low is a must have. Because without it or good armor Quan is fucked by the block infinites. Oh yeah, and guaranteed resets by Aftershock Tremor now. God! People be gentle with Quan, one wrong nerf and he is back to mk9 tier!

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Just Gonna leave this here...

Hit the bat and the b2 closer together

 

[Fallen_sektor]

this might just happen online, i am not sure but people keep constantly back dashing after ex rune, for example b2ex rune and they back dash and the second b2 whiffes, prob the invencible start of the backdash, i can still change my game and have you pay for it, but the option is still there, all quan really needs is his skydrop hitbox fixed, i ve been saying this since april and no one seem to care, reading a jump and getting hit by it on the way down, or getting full punished for reading my oponent jumps, it just makes my blood boil, also a slighty faster poke, not something to counter every poke, but at least a chance to move out of the corner, whats the point of breaking with quan, to still be left in the corner with no stamina
other than that he is godlike, godlike zoning, godlike mixups

 

[snort]

Make low bat hit mid and make EX skydrop advantage on block, done.

 

[Ryncage]

because I didn't even see him in top 16. That means that pro players know how to deal with Quan.
That pseudo unblockable was known to exist since like week one. Why didn't you complain then???????! Because stuff only needs to get nerfed if you get blown up by it?!)

Mostly want to address these two things.
#1- people need to drop the "they dont win tournaments so clearly its balanced" thing already.
Quan chi at this point is a gimmick character. This nearly unblockable being his gimmick. Of course a character based around the rng if circumstances, isnt going to steamroll major events. But that doesnt mean this option isnt ridiculous and needs a tweak. The real problem here is that this crutch is getting you all to parrot "hes balanced" when really he is lackluster as a consistantly powerful character.

#2- it isnt everyone elses job to learn every imbalance with every character and cry for days about it. Let alone in the first week.

 

[Rude]

You don't need to nerf the low bat.

It's literally called, "low bat." Quan has enough weaknesses and losing match ups to compensate his strengths.

Just calm down.

 

[Juggs]

Nothing in this game needs to be nerfed, at least, not right now. Give the game time to breathe please. Not directed to you Tom, as you didn't ask for nerfs.

 

[legion666]

Mostly want to address these two things.
#1- people need to drop the "they dont win tournaments so clearly its balanced" thing already.
Quan chi at this point is a gimmick character. This nearly unblockable being his gimmick. Of course a character based around the rng if circumstances, isnt going to steamroll major events. But that doesnt mean this option isnt ridiculous and needs a tweak. The real problem here is that this crutch is getting you all to parrot "hes balanced" when really he is lackluster as a consistantly powerful character.

#2- it isnt everyone elses job to learn every imbalance with every character and cry for days about it. Let alone in the first week.

You took #1 out of the context. "I didn't see HIM in top 16 " wasn't about Quan as a character, it was about particular player which beat Tom at evo with Quan, which left Tom salty and bitter. And that player was knocked out waaaay before top 16, probably even before top 32. That means his set ups weren't that effective.
#2 - this has been known week 1, @Peckapowa made a thread about it. And a lot of top players have seen it and posted there, no one cried for nerfs.

 

[legion666]

Make low bat hit mid and make EX skydrop advantage on block, done.

Ex skydrop being unsafe isn't the main issue,it is just part of it being shitty:
1. It is unsafe, let it be number one
2. It is slow as fuck and gets hit out of by any 2 hit string, even by slow ones
3. When Quan appears from the sky, he doesn't have armor and gets anti aired by literally anything! If a slow string didn't break armor, the second hit will anti air him out of the sky most times
4. The move has a very small hitbox, it doesn't even anti air people jumping most of the times and whiffs a lot in general
It can not be made a reliable wake up at this point

 

[Ryncage]

You took #1 out of the context. "I didn't see HIM in top 16 " wasn't about Quan as a character, it was about particular player which beat Tom at evo with Quan, which left Tom salty and bitter. And that player was knocked out waaaay before top 16, probably even before top 32. That means his set ups weren't that effective.
#2 - this has been known week 1, @Peckapowa made a thread about it. And a lot of top players have seen it and posted there, no one cried for nerfs.

Wasnt taking it out of context at all. Your using tourny results to downplay the character. Just because the guy didnt place top 8 doesnt mean "oh your just bad its perfectly balanced and acceptable".

But enough of all that, if the quan qommunity is okay with their character just being a diceroll and zoning character, by all means.

 

[legion666]

Wasnt taking it out of context at all. Your using tourny results to downplay the character. Just because the guy didnt place top 8 doesnt mean "oh your just bad its perfectly balanced and acceptable".

But enough of all that, if the quan qommunity is okay with their character just being a diceroll and zoning character, by all means.

Again Quan chi as a character placed top 5 at Evo. We are talking about a person who beat tom using these set ups and who didn't place even in top 32. I am not downplaying the character, which I don't even main by the way. I am saying that Tom lost to a player with these set ups who was beaten afterwards pretty early in this tournament. That means it wasn't even a problem for everyone, just for tom.
People have been using these set ups online since week one. I play 2 Quan players offline who do these set ups a lot. And I haven't said once that it should be nerfed, though I have problems blocking those sometimes even now. Dink beat Perfect Legend in ESL tournament by only doing these loops, and Tom has just woken up to it, just because he lost to it. I don't see that in particular as a good reason to cry for nerfs!

 

[I GOT HANDS]

The downplay is strong in this one

 

[Ryncage]

Again Quan chi as a character placed top 5 at Evo. We are talking about a person who beat tom using these set ups and who didn't place even in top 32. I am not downplaying the character, which I don't even main by the way. I am saying that Tom lost to a player with these set ups who was beaten afterwards pretty early in this tournament. That means it wasn't even a problem for everyone, just for tom.
People have been using these set ups online since week one. I play 2 Quan players offline who do these set ups a lot. And I haven't said once that it should be nerfed, though I have problems blocking those sometimes even now. Dink beat Perfect Legend in ESL tournament by only doing these loops, and Tom has just woken up to it, just because he lost to it. I don't see that in particular as a good reason to cry for nerfs!

Then get over the fact that tom made this thread. Look at what is actually taking place here.
The issue isnt who did what, who can or cant pull it off and whos specific scenarios didnt show problems dealing with the setup.
the potential here shoudlnt be acceptable just because "muh weaknesses".
Nor should human error be a balancing factor. Even moreso if you play pc at all, since some people make it even less of a factor. (Macros)

 

[legion666]

Then get over the fact that tom made this thread. Look at what is actually taking place here.
The issue isnt who did what, who can or cant pull it off and whos specific scenarios didnt show problems dealing with the setup.
the potential here shoudlnt be acceptable just because "muh weaknesses".
Nor should human error be a balancing factor. Even moreso if you play pc at all, since some people make it even less of a factor. (Macros)

Maybe you should get over the fact that Quan has such hard to block set ups and learn to deal with them instead of crying for nerfs. If execution isn't a problem to creat such set ups in a real match, then execution shouldn't be a problem do block these either. Also Quan isn't the only one who has such set ups. They can be created by TAkeda( any overhead+Ex kunai), Predator (any overhead +the trap), Tremor (either timed low ground pulse+overhead or overhead boulder+a low attack), even by D'Vorah (though hers are easier to block). Let's start the nerf fest!!!
The same goes for PC - Creat a macros for blocking the macros of your opponent - problem solved!

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Maybe you should get over the fact that Quan has such hard to block set ups and learn to deal with them instead of crying for nerfs.

Or, maybe it was proved in the OP that the timing is completely random, so no amount of practice can make this learned, and even that's assuming you can even guess the 50/50.

If execution isn't a problem to creat such set ups in a real match, then execution shouldn't be a problem do block these either.

This is quite possibly the most retarded argument I've EVER seen a user of this forum make in an attempt to downplay their main.

If you are telling me that you can't tell the difference in execution of the using vortex and the execution involved in blocking it - then I'll say you are either lying, or have the IQ of a bowl of porridge and should not be commenting on balance related threads.

The same goes for PC - Creat a macros for blocking the macros of your opponent - problem solved!

That's it, your done. Step away from the Quan Chi threads. It's clear you will argue anything to the death due to your blatant bias concerning QC, no matter how stupid it makes you look in the process.




Just post has single handedly shot you up in my books from TYM's 4th worst poster, to TYM's #1 worst poster. You just spew this nonsense over and over. Give it up bro.

 

[MK Donny]

Maybe you should get over the fact that Quan has such hard to block set ups and learn to deal with them instead of crying for nerfs. If execution isn't a problem to creat such set ups in a real match, then execution shouldn't be a problem do block these either. Also Quan isn't the only one who has such set ups. They can be created by TAkeda( any overhead+Ex kunai), Predator (any overhead +the trap), Tremor (either timed low ground pulse+overhead or overhead boulder+a low attack), even by D'Vorah (though hers are easier to block). Let's start the nerf fest!!!
The same goes for PC - Creat a macros for blocking the macros of your opponent - problem solved!

You don't learn the deal with Quan's set-ups. They're almost impossible to block when done right, hence pseudo unblockable. Stop telling people to "learn to deal with them" because that's total fucking horseshit.

You display evert attribute of a rampant downplayer.

- Instantly responds to every negative comment about your character? Check
- For some reason assumes every negative comment is asking for nerfs despite none of them every saying nerf? Check
- Makes the most outrageous comparisons in order to deflect heat from your character? Check (You compared Quan's vortex to Takeda... I just... wow)
- Tells people to learn to deal with things they themselves can't hope to deal with? Check

 

[I Am The LK]

What people fail to realise is that the vortex is all he has.

He doesn't have super safe strings and stagger pressure.

He doesn't have super fast pokes and mobility.

Strings that whiff on other, smaller hitbox characters jail on Quan.

He HAS to go for the vortex every time, because what else is he supposed to do?

I think that, because things like Dragonfire Kang or Kobu Tanya exist that jail him indefinitely, he should have powerful offense.

It's not broken. You can rush him down, knock him down, and then the momentum is in your favor. He has weaknesses.

The fact that he can armor through a move, go into the ground, and still get hit as he's coming down from the teleport is fair.

Compare it to Boneshaper, who has the ultimate conditioning tool in f4 after amulet blast on hit. As soon as you respect that, he has a 50/50. On top of ALL of his combos ending in a re-stand into either a 50/50 or pressure, he has one of the fastest projectiles in the game and great space control with the threat of Hellsparks. All it takes is one d4 into MB Hellsparks and he can get his game going.

Cassie Cage has a 50/50 off any jump in, the ability to set up re-stands into another 50/50, and in Spec Ops can use mb drone strike to set up her own hard-to-blockables.

Raiden can end all of his combos in a re-stand that he can make safe with option selects, and he has an advancing, armored special move that can very easily corner you, on top of an armored launcher in mb Shocker.

Erron Black has extremely powerful pressure that leads to a guessing game between a crap ton of options and in Marksman that pressure can be extended with rifle cancels.

These are all good characters and i want to see none of them nerfed, including Quan.

I honestly think that as time goes on, people will get better at fighting Quan. People are too afraid to rush him down, when that is how you beat the character.

NO SUMMONER IS USED FOR ZONING SOO YEAH nerf

 

[I Am The LK]

How I would balance quan :
- Make his low bat hit mid
- Remove the nerf of 1 sec bat delay and bat doesnt disappear if he gets hit
- buff his d3
- Make his ex stomp work properly so he can wakeup ( make it faster ,safer , and armor work properly )

No. Now hes OP. Nerf his bat to where it stays away on block. Keep his pokes bad and his wakeups bad. Theen hes balenced

 

[Ryncage]

The same goes for PC - Creat a macros for blocking the macros of your opponent

Block macro.
I lost it. Simply lost it. Nearly pissed myself laughed so hard.
But yeah, agree with hands and donny. Nothing more to add, and neither do you really.

 

[legion666]

Or, maybe it was proved in the OP that the timing is completely random, so no amount of practice can make this learned, and even that's assuming you can even guess the 50/50.


This is quite possibly the most retarded argument I've EVER seen a user of this forum make in an attempt to downplay their main.

If you are telling me that you can't tell the difference in execution of the using vortex and the execution involved in blocking it - then I'll say you are either lying, or have the IQ of a bowl of porridge and should not be commenting on balance related threads.


That's it, your done. Step away from the Quan Chi threads. It's clear you will argue anything to the death due to your blatant bias concerning QC, no matter how stupid it makes you look in the process.




Just post has single handedly shot you up in my books from TYM's 4th worst poster, to TYM's #1 worst poster. You just spew this nonsense over and over. Give it up bro.

Or, maybe it was proved in the OP that the timing is completely random, so no amount of practice can make this learned, and even that's assuming you can even guess the 50/50.


This is quite possibly the most retarded argument I've EVER seen a user of this forum make in an attempt to downplay their main.

If you are telling me that you can't tell the difference in execution of the using vortex and the execution involved in blocking it - then I'll say you are either lying, or have the IQ of a bowl of porridge and should not be commenting on balance related threads.


That's it, your done. Step away from the Quan Chi threads. It's clear you will argue anything to the death due to your blatant bias concerning QC, no matter how stupid it makes you look in the process.




Just post has single handedly shot you up in my books from TYM's 4th worst poster, to TYM's #1 worst poster. You just spew this nonsense over and over. Give it up bro.

GUYS! Guys! Quan isn't my main, why do I need to downplay him????! I mained Shinnok since day 1. I just play a lot of Quans offline and know how he works. I know how he struggles in other areas of the game.
If it isn't a plea for nerf then what is it?!
I didn't compare the vortex to Takeda's set up, I compared the pseudo unblockable hard to block set ups which both of these characters have. Takeda does it with delayed ex kunai, and of course it is harder to set up, but very difficult to block as well.
I am telling you what I see. People can't reliably block Quan's mix ups, but they do get blocked by people I play and by me a lot.
And notice I didn't call anyone stupid or tried to doubt someone's IQ here. Although @I GOT HANDS is probably the number 1 worst poster on TYM in a lot of people's books))) but I don't have such books,so lol)
Honestly if Quan gets nerfed my character will have less things to worry about.