General/Other - Takeda Kano B1 abuse vs Takeda

[Youphemism]

Seriously? You guys are still clamouring on about B1? NO KANO IS GOING TO JUST DO B1, THERE IS NO POINT. On hit you get a little damage and you can't hit confirm it, how tremendously overpowering. He will do B13 and only B13 as it is -1 on block with pushback but is hit confirmable into full combo. Talk about that if you want because it's the only option of the two he will actually use against you like that.

Stop talking about just B1 because it's not what he's going to use anyway. Even so you still have options to get out of it, sorry those options have counter-options. Welcome to fucking fighting games.

I actually had a bunch of responses to multiple posts in this thread but it's not even worth it because you're going on about 1 normal he's not even going to use because he's going to use B13 which is -1 with pushback. Make sure you understand how the character uses his tools if he even uses some of them before you complain about the most useless shit and ask for fucking nerfs. I mean seriously? He apparently block infinites a few characters and your answer is to make him worse against everyone rather than give those characters better options? Think about it, please.

besides armor and d2 what are my options?

Jesus christ, dismissive much? He has the options of armour and D2, stop ignoring them.

 

[PandaManee]

Two things:

1. b1 being a block infinite on some characters is kind of bad, but I think it mainly shows how some characters need somewhat faster normals to prevent these types of situations from happening.

2. Nerfing b1 would be an extremely lazy way to go about balancing this. Give certain characters who struggle against it like a 1 or 2 frame faster normal and thats it. Sure it means they can get out of everyone's pressure now but that just means pressure characters have to play smarter.

So instead of nerfing one move, you buff a whole mess of oher moves?

That has far more unpredictable consequences that the first solution.

 

[Zyphox]

Seriously? You guys are still clamouring on about B1? NO KANO IS GOING TO JUST DO B1, THERE IS NO POINT. On hit you get a little damage and you can't hit confirm it, how tremendously overpowering. He will do B13 and only B13 as it is -1 on block with pushback but is hit confirmable into full combo. Talk about that if you want because it's the only option of the two he will actually use against you like that.

Stop talking about just B1 because it's not what he's going to use anyway. Even so you still have options to get out of it, sorry those options have counter-options. Welcome to fucking fighting games.

I actually had a bunch of responses to multiple posts in this thread but it's not even worth it because you're going on about 1 normal he's not even going to use because he's going to use B13 which is -1 with pushback. Make sure you understand how the character uses his tools if he even uses some of them before you complain about the most useless shit and ask for fucking nerfs. I mean seriously? He apparently block infinites a few characters and your answer is to make him worse against everyone rather than give those characters better options? Think about it, please.

Jesus christ, dismissive much? He has the options of armour and D2, stop ignoring them.

according to playintowin and slayer its +2 and and trades i've been getting was human error, so now my only option is armor, what now genius?

 

[Insuperable]

What is going on, guys? Zyphox here.

 

[Rip Torn]

"You need to stop saying this" sounds a little too personal, imo. This is my first post in this thread, and it isn't just me that feels this way. It's not Kano across the board that I'm worried about, it's cybernetic.

It's definitely not personal. I was just throwing your words back at you:

2) Nerfing b1 would be disaster for cybernetic Kano across the board, and helpful for a few characters in 1 match-up. That's an imbalance. The goal is balance. Stop suggesting this.

Please keep your emotions and egos in check and be rational

Now, I still want an answer to my question. How would making b1 -1 instead of 0 on block be a "disaster for cybernetic Kano across the board"? Do you really need amazing zoning and rush down in one character? I just want some clarification here...

 

[cyke_out]

according to playintowin and slayer its +2 and and trades i've been getting was human error, so now my only option is armor, what now genius?

Sounds like facing sub zero to me, and apparently that is fine.

 

[Zoidberg747]

So instead of nerfing one move, you buff a whole mess of oher moves?

That has far more unpredictable consequences that the first solution.

Not many characters can get block infinite'd by Kano's b1. And yes, I think they should make one of their moves one frame faster. I don't think characters should ever have no way out of pressure, no matter how good they are otherwise.

 

[protools27]

So Kano has no overhead in that variation and relies on pressure and reads to open the opponent up but you want to take away an ok tool in his arsenal not his best just an okay tool for pressure even though you have said you have ways out of it with armor and reversals oh and throws. 9 frame high/mid Attacks are too good.

Kano can't be good because he's not a Ninja.

I mean Takeda is a ninja with 3/4 screen 50/50s that are safe. That's okay but having a slight amount of pressure for a character with no real 50/50 would be too OP. B1 is the best string in the game you guys. Kano is never allowed to live.

can you tell me how takeda's 50/50's are safe again? shows what you know about takeda LOL. once you leave jump distance you dont have to worry about a low combo starter. b3 (low starter) into anything on block is interrupt able by any armor, and b1 by itself is -10000000000000000000000. b21 into kunai, armored through, b2, kunai armor through. b21 is -21 on block, if i whiff it has 47 recover frames. literally even goro can whiff punish b21 from full screen with a run up combo starter. reptile can punish b21 on hit!!!!! then once you do punish you're in my face!!! lol you are too funny, learn the character before you make assumptions.

Maybe you should take your own advice and take Kano into the lab about his b1 and his OTHER tools and see how hard it is to open the opponent up as Kano.

This is how most arguements on forums, or arguments in general, go. Person A states something, usually incorrect, person B states why it's incorrect, then person A comes back with something completely different, not even addressing that their original point just got blown up. You clearly don't know anything about the character, but let's go ahead and blow up someone who's been using him since day one, because somehow you think you know more. If you know nothing about takeda how can you even begin to form an opinion on his options? It's already confirmed to be a block infinite on some characters. I guess my main point is, leave the conversation to those that actually have knowledge of the characters or matchups in question.

 

[PandaManee]

Not many characters can get block infinite'd by Kano's b1. And yes, I think they should make one of their moves one frame faster. I don't think characters should ever have no way out of pressure, no matter how good they are otherwise.

I would hate to see Quan get buffed, he already has so many strong points. his point blank game is probably his only weak point i think .....

How would making b1 negative one ruin Kanos game? I really don't think it will ruin it. It will only stop that brain dead pressure to an extent .

 

[MK Peanuts]

NO KANO IS GOING TO JUST DO B1, THERE IS NO POINT.

I feel like you didn't watch Next Level Battle Circuit last night lmao

 

[Sultan]

It's definitely not personal. I was just throwing your words back at you:



Now, I still want an answer to my question. How would making b1 -1 instead of 0 on block be a "disaster for cybernetic Kano across the board"? Do you really need amazing zoning and rush down in one character? I just want some clarification here...

You're right that I should have been more clear about what I meant by nerf. If making b1 -1 was the only nerf being offered up as an option I'd be less annoyed. Some are suggesting b1 be a high. So when I say nerf, I'm referencing extreme examples like making it a high, or other equally absurd options that eliminate Kano's ability to pressure the opponent. Making it -1 wouldn't be the end of the world by any means, but it wouldn't ideal, imo. I really do believe that the problem goes deeper than a frame or two on a single normal, I think it's a deeper systems mechanic issue that people struggle so much with being at neutral.

Short answer, do I think making it -1 would "destroy" Kano? no. Do I think ruining the move would ruin the character? yep.

 

[TotteryManx]

No offense to Kano players, but his Cybernetic variation is a asshole in this game. I understand your pain with b1. Mileena's pokes aren't great either, so what am I suppose to do? Randomly throw out a ball roll? lol. It's not even the b1. The majority of his strings are safe and knife toss and even freaking eye laser are safe as long as you are not bumping chests with the opponent lol. I'd also like to point out his non EX knife toss shuts down EX tele for Mil.

Cybernetic Kano is flying under the radar imo.

p.s. his knife toss is a mid so you can't just crouch..you have to hold that chip.

 

[Zoidberg747]

I would hate to see Quan get buffed, he already has so many strong points. his point blank game is probably his only weak point i think .....

How would making b1 negative one ruin Kanos game? I really don't think it will ruin it. It will only stop that brain dead pressure to an extent .

His weakness is that he has no wakeups. Giving him a faster d1 wont change that.

 

[Youphemism]

according to playintowin and slayer its +2 and and trades i've been getting was human error, so now my only option is armor, what now genius?

A. He's not going to use B1 by itself so there's no need to cry about it. If he is then boohoo you got hit by 1 hit that won't get confirmed into full combo and you built some meter that you can use to armour or breaker and put him back into the position that you want him.
B. You just answered your own question...

I feel like you didn't watch Next Level Battle Circuit last night lmao

Is there an archive I can watch and a timestamp for it? Lol

 

[TheIrishFGCguy]

No offense to Kano players, but his Cybernetic variation is a asshole in this game. I understand your pain with b1. Mileena's pokes aren't great either, so what am I suppose to do? Randomly throw out a ball roll? lol. It's not even the b1. The majority of his strings are safe and knife toss and even freaking eye laser are safe as long as you are not bumping chests with the opponent lol. I'd also like to point out his non EX knife toss shuts down EX tele for Mil.

Cybernetic Kano is flying under the radar imo.

p.s. his knife toss is a mid so you can't just crouch..you have to hold that chip.

What you're describing sounds more like Mileena being bad than cybernetic Kano "flying under the radar". It's not Kano's fault that Mileena's frame data is ass.
Also knife toss and eye laser are not safe, Period. You can't dance around it by saying "at this range" or whatever. The moves are unsafe.

 

[Konqrr]

Wow the salt is strong in this thread.

-1 on block should happen, nothing else.

 

[TotteryManx]

What you're describing sounds more like Mileena being bad than cybernetic Kano "flying under the radar". It's not Kano's fault that Mileena's frame data is ass.
Also knife toss and eye laser are not safe, Period. You can't dance around it by saying "at this range" or whatever. The moves are unsafe.

He gives the same treatment to a lot of characters. Also, I can absolutely comment on the range because no asshole is going to throw a non ex knife toss while you're holding hands. At the start of the match you can take two steps forward and toss a knife without being punished. That's pretty safe rather if you like it or not.

 

[Ugodimak]

BUFF B1.

#BuffB12015

 

[Rip Torn]

You're right that I should have been more clear about what I meant by nerf. If making b1 -1 was the only nerf being offered up as an option I'd be less annoyed. Some are suggesting b1 be a high. So when I say nerf, I'm referencing extreme examples like making it a high, or other equally absurd options that eliminate Kano's ability to pressure the opponent. Making it -1 wouldn't be the end of the world by any means, but it wouldn't ideal, imo. I really do believe that the problem goes deeper than a frame or two on a single normal, I think it's a deeper systems mechanic issue that people struggle so much with being at neutral.

Short answer, do I think making it -1 would "destroy" Kano? no. Do I think ruining the move would ruin the character? yep.

Cool. I just wanted some clarification on that because I don't have the in depth knowledge that Kano mains would have regarding all his options up close. The thing that scares me is buffing characters like Quan or Takeda by giving them 6-7 frame normals that they aren't supposed to have. It could cause some serious balance issues down the road.

 

[MK Peanuts]

Is there an archive I can watch and a timestamp for it? Lol

twitch.tv/teamsp00ky is the stream, I can't check the timestamp cause I'm at work but it's in there somewhere. You're looking for matches from Cutthroat Steve aka Coach Steve aka Insaynne who basically won the tournament with b1 b1 b1 b1 b1 b1 b1 grab

 

[dribirut]

Lol smh that was quick

 

[dribirut]

The fix for this is extremely simple. Just make his b1 -1 but keep the same recovery frames.. There problem solved. Btw. Every single character has a way to get out of this.. Except maybe summoner quan chi.

Yet liu kang got "nerfed" but can still loop his infinite 4-5 times and there you truly have no options. Yet quan chi summoner has true unblockables everywhere on the screen and we don't make threads like this.. Sub zero has 33/33/33 bull corner and he is being "uplayed" ..

Instead of calling for a nerf just realize that the flawed character is yours not Kano. Because if his b1
Gets nerfed this will be mk9 all over again

 

[Immortal Kombat]

I'm honestly holding back from going off on so many people in this forum right now that have no idea what the fuck they are talking about when it comes to takeda.
I went through 9 pages of this crap looking for an actual solution to this and all I see I pointless arguments. None of you have a good solution to this, but all of you are quick to attack zyphox.
Zyphox I agree, the problem is VERY obvious. Takeda needs a faster poke, this isn't the only abuse he takes. Ask sabin, he hardly used him at NWM. Leave kano alone, give takeda a chance up close. Something faster than a grab at least, that's fair. I would like to thank everyone for making me waste my time reading through 9 pages of juvenile bullshit. Try actually solving the problem next time instead of sitting on players. Isn't that the whole point of these forums? To find a solution? Move forward tym

 

[TheIrishFGCguy]

He gives the same treatment to a lot of characters. Also, I can absolutely comment on the range because no asshole is going to throw a non ex knife toss while you're holding hands. At the start of the match you can take two steps forward and toss a knife without being punished. That's pretty safe rather if you like it or not.

Okay, so what? I don't see your point here. Cybernetic Kano is a zoning character and his knives are already -10 on block. Making that any worse so people can punish him easier is totally ridiculous.

 

[LEGI0N47]

Where are the experts telling us how it's too early and to flesh it out and level up?

Or did they finally realize that some things can be figured out?

I can't agree with Youphenism any more. No one does only b1 since we can't hit confirm it, and god forbid reads or risks need to be made or a char has a tough MU.

It's too bad threads like this happen and allow several chars with huge amounts of BS steer clear of such scrutiny. I swear its on every forum for every game now. "why isn't my char/build/item/game design etc. an all encompassing total package"

Overall thread has been entertaining, so good job there. Can't wait for Dave's response to really up it.