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Can someone explain the NRS balance philosophy

I think the NRS philosophy is to buff things that people cry about. I mean day of release there was at least 24 threads saying to nerf and buff each character. For some reason this community thinks they can master characters in days while every other community doesn't really jump the gun on asking for buffs.

Long story short we are the call of duty of fighting games, casuals flock to us and play our games and make balance suggestions when they lose to something and don't want to even attempt to level up their own game. Then they quit the game and still think they should have input on how a game gets balanced.

In all honesty though NRS is in a lose-lose situation. If they don't patch the game then people will complain that they don't care about the community. If they do patch the game, then you just get more threads asking for nerfs and buffs and people complaining that NRS has no idea what they are doing. Back in my day when we lost to something in a video game, be it fighting games or Quake, we didn't say someone was cheap or was cheating. We just put another quarter in the machine and tried to beat it. Or in Quake we just practiced til we were as good as the guy that could frag us.
 
I think the NRS philosophy is to buff things that people cry about. I mean day of release there was at least 24 threads saying to nerf and buff each character. For some reason this community thinks they can master characters in days while every other community doesn't really jump the gun on asking for buffs.

Long story short we are the call of duty of fighting games, casuals flock to us and play our games and make balance suggestions when they lose to something and don't want to even attempt to level up their own game. Then they quit the game and still think they should have input on how a game gets balanced.

In all honesty though NRS is in a lose-lose situation. If they don't patch the game then people will complain that they don't care about the community. If they do patch the game, then you just get more threads asking for nerfs and buffs and people complaining that NRS has no idea what they are doing. Back in my day when we lost to something in a video game, be it fighting games or Quake, we didn't say someone was cheap or was cheating. We just put another quarter in the machine and tried to beat it. Or in Quake we just practiced til we were as good as the guy that could frag us.
I hear your point with the quake thing, thats how I have been with other fighters in the past. Umk3, sf4 Sc4 ect, there was always that light at the end of the tunnel. But unfortunately Bane vs superman or any of the most played characters, U just cant see it. Theres is nothing to hope for as they are just that strong.
 
To answer the question in the thread... the game was released with inbalance in mind, at least for some chars, best example: Superman. Of course there is balance between a lot of chars but they made some chars op on purpose, again, look at Superman.
Yeah that's what I think also. PICK A TOP TIER "OR YOU HAVE NO HOPE."
But its fine giving up injustice I just cant be bothered with those safe 50/50 characters anymore
 

chores

bad at things
We just put another quarter in the machine and tried to beat it. Or in Quake we just practiced til we were as good as the guy that could frag us.
I feel like street fighter is the Quake of fighting games. MK9/Injustice is like UT, quakes somewhat clunkier cousin. MvC is like CPMA or Warsow where shit is 1000mph
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I play one. Whenever I fight against him, I know how to recognize the holes.

Offline, you can react to F2.
No, humanly impossible. You can see the F2, you can't react to it in a way that escapes it except with super

If you still think flash isnt top 10 with his buffs then you probably dont know much of fighting games.
 

SonicBoomBrad

Best Doomsday in the world
Bane is a really good character. I seriously don't understand why everyone sleeps on him. 100% serious right now.

No, humanly impossible. You can see the F2, you can't react to it in a way that escapes it except with super

If you still think flash isnt top 10 with his buffs then you probably dont know much of fighting games.
Pretty sure he meant reaction block, which you can. But thinking Flash isn't top 10 should be a crime.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
I have been playing injustice since release and still can't get my head around the balance decisions NRS have made.

Lets take my main as an example, bane.
Low damage combos with out venom.
Slow B3, slow F3
bad hitboxes on both B3 and F3 + at the negative after B3
fastest move 9 frames
special move 134 frame startup "cant remember the exact number but defo >100."

Yet there are characters like superman, green lanten, batman ect, who seem to have little to no negatives. They literally have the best mobility, fastest normals, specials, B3 F3, best traits, highest damage ect
"1 frame super"

Am I missing something why is the game like this. Seems like these characters completely dominate in every aspect of play. Its not like with zangief where I can say, "I am slow, I am fat but I will twerk you up close." This is really pissing me off feeling almost helpless against them

What would help

normalize the start up of all B3 and F3 + hitboxes + block stun.
give each character a 6-8 frame mid hitting string
being able to dash and block "helps non projectile characters."
reduce the chip damage
Increase the advantage to the player that wins clash " longer hard knockdown."

Holy hell, here we go...

Bane mains don't complain about their character, they chose that character in spite of his drawbacks for a reason.

38% meterless without venom, level 2 giving us Black Adam-esque damage for free. Also, not made to be played without it. Superman gets 60% in the corner? We get in the area of 75% anywhere on the screen.

Slow B.3 and f.3 aren't bad things, them being slow allows us to punish things others can't because our MB armor lasts that much longer.

b.3 can hit most people out of their backdash after they've done it (another benefit to their speed being not super fast) because its one of if not the longest reaching b.3 in the game. f.3 hits in an AoE around him meaning he can stuff certain teleports and attacks that naturally cross-up like Nightwing's flip kick.

9 frames in exchange for half of our normal attacks giving us huge +frames, including a monsterous 11 frame low that gives us +17 (the most advantage for any single move of that speed), a b.1 that gives us +12 on block and +16 on hit (the highest block advantage for any standing light), having free armor on most of the kit, an unblockable command grab... Slow is why he has these tools. Being fast isn't all of whats important (unless you are the flash).

Super has been calculated by Supernova to be 20 frames, the same as his command grab. Most of those frames are the ultralong boner-inducing "YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH", and frames well spent.

Green lantern, Superman, and most of those you described rely on their attacks for mobility because theirs is garbage. Bane has better mobility movement wise than most anyone you had in that list. Not the fastest attacks but his specials and trait can be argued to be among the best because armor and 2.5x superman's trait + projectile immunity isn't something to scoff at.

Bane is the "I'm not slow moving, but my attacks are slow and require good reads and quick thinking to make the most of. If I do, consider yourself snapped in half."

Let me list why your ideas won't help.
normalize the start up of all B3 and F3 + hitboxes + block stun. - No, this is dumb. Learn to properly use your moves or pick someone else.

give each character a 6-8 frame mid hitting string - Why the hell would grundy have a 6-8 frame mid hitting string? Bane doesn't need it since he armors through most things. Superman needs it to stay viable.

being able to dash and block "helps non projectile characters." - Its called don't dash headlong into oncoming projectiles. Or if you are at level 3 venom, learn to f.2 dash. Projectiles usually allow a free dash in after they are blocked, and Bane's dash is one of the best.

reduce the chip damage - Why? Chip will do maybe 10-20% for the entire game of both lifebars for both people. Reducing it won't do anything.

Increase the advantage to the player that wins clash " longer hard knockdown - you get a free dash in, make the most of it. Anything else would hurt more than help.




Heres what would actually help Bane, as well as many other characters:
Fix some hitbox issues. Bane's super shouldn't mess as much as it does, flash should his opponents with his mid, etc.
Fix improper frame data, if something is neutral on block it should be neutral, not -3/-5.
Tone down some obviously dominant things: f.23 can stand to lose 3 or 4 frames, for example.
Fix interactable hitboxes, the weird invuln on some of them should either exist on all or none imo.
Enable characters to tech roll forward.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Bane is a really good character. I seriously don't understand why everyone sleeps on him. 100% serious right now.
Maybe everyone sleeps on him because when he's matched up against the other "good characters", he doesn't get anywhere in tournament -- and when he wins, it's usually because people are unfamiliar with the matchup.

People are acting like this guy is speaking a foreign language, but what he's saying has been validated over and over again by the results.

I don't care how disadvantaged a character is, people will always find a reason to say how great he is and how all the people that main him need to level up. But there has to be some kind of proof to accompany that :)
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Maybe everyone sleeps on him because when he's matched up against the other "good characters", he doesn't get anywhere in tournament -- and when he wins, it's usually because people are unfamiliar with the matchup.

People are acting like this guy is speaking a foreign language, but what he's saying has been validated over and over again by the results.

I don't care how disadvantaged a character is, people will always find a reason to say how great he is and how all the people that main him need to level up. But there has to be some kind of proof to accompany that :)
"Good characters" being? Because he loses to BA, Flash, and Nightwing. IMO everything else is manageable, and he beats GL by a fair margin.

I made a huge list of why he is speaking a foreign language, because essentially he is. He isn't wrong about Bane having problems, sure he does. However, for the most part he is wrong about the character itself. Its like someone saying Nightwing has troubles because his staff stance has slow attacks. I can guarantee any NW main will say "get pinned in a corner with d.1s and see how "slow" it is.". And nightwing doesn't have much for results. KF only recently made it to top 8, and it was because "people didn't know the match-up".

Bane isn't a bad character, far from what this guy is describing. Mid tier is a comfortable seat, and from there he can see the top. Since he is unlikely to be nerfed, I wouldn't say he is "disadvantaged" so much as his advantage isn't immediate. Once those top tiers get toned down, guess who will still be getting buffed? Lastly, theres nothing wrong with people losing because they choose to sleep on a character.
 

SonicBoomBrad

Best Doomsday in the world
Maybe everyone sleeps on him because when he's matched up against the other "good characters", he doesn't get anywhere in tournament -- and when he wins, it's usually because people are unfamiliar with the matchup.

People are acting like this guy is speaking a foreign language, but what he's saying has been validated over and over again by the results.

I don't care how disadvantaged a character is, people will always find a reason to say how great he is and how all the people that main him need to level up. But there has to be some kind of proof to accompany that :)
I main Doomsday. I don't even main someone considered top 10. And when I felt like my character wasn't good enough I went into the lab and studied every detail about him to develop tech for things that gave him problems. Instead of complaining about how disadvantaged characters are, people should work to make them better. Bane has all the tools he needs to be tournament viable. Tournament results 3 months into a game show nothing about low tier characters being viable. A Gen player just won evo this year after being considered the worst in the game for 3 years.
 
Not targeting anyone particular, but I've seen some angry condescending posts, and from what I've seen the OP has been mostly showing respect. He's complaining, and sharing his view. If you think it's wrong just counter it and educate him, thus developing a debate. If you're "tired" of people complaining then avoid the thread. No one wants to hear someone complain about a complainer, that solves absolutely nothing.

You scare off potential people to become a part of the community with "Meh another scrub post" mentality, when instead you should be welcoming and give either advice, or debate.

Just my 2 cents. I know a few people who tried to get help here, and they never came back because people were being "rude" to them for being ignorant.


Sorry I know this has nothing to do with the thread. I'm just tired of seeing new people get torn up by people when he's trying to contribute.




As for the thread.

I know having armor on your command attacks is nice. But I think people are overexaggerating how good it really is. Because lets be real here, more than half of those command attacks with armor are really unsafe. I'd like them to be a little safer, so the armor can act as a fear mechanic so you can start your normals.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
As for the thread.

I know having armor on your command attacks is nice. But I think people are overexaggerating how good it really is. Because lets be real here, more than half of those command attacks with armor are really unsafe. I'd like them to be a little safer, so the armor can act as a fear mechanic so you can start your normals.
Armored double punch is neutral on block, armored charge isn't punishable by anything that isn't a superman super, command grab isn't punishable unless you make a really really good read and jump at the right time. 3/5 of his attacks are safe on block, sooo.... more than half are safe.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I main Doomsday. I don't even main someone considered top 10. And when I felt like my character wasn't good enough I went into the lab and studied every detail about him to develop tech for things that gave him problems. Instead of complaining about how disadvantaged characters are, people should work to make them better. Bane has all the tools he needs to be tournament viable. Tournament results 3 months into a game show nothing about low tier characters being viable. A Gen player just won evo this year after being considered the worst in the game for 3 years.
Doomsday has done a lot more damage than Bane.. I mean it's not quite tough talk to compare the character that won Toryuken to a character who's barely been able to get out of pools.

Not saying that Doomsday is #1, because he has issues, but there's plenty of tourney play to back up anything anyone says about Doomsday.

Bane on the other hand, is an entirely different story.

And as far as Gen, that's due to execution issues -- not the character tools. If Bane was as hard to execute with as Gen (or as Skarlet was in MK9) you'd have a case. But that's a different issue entirely and doesn't have anything to do with what Bane players are saying about their main.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Doomsday has done a lot more damage than Bane.. I mean it's not quite tough talk to compare the character that won Toryuken to a character who's barely been able to get out of pools.
Doomsday has a lot more representation, to be fair. He is statistically more likely to win, even if he is the worse character, simply because there are more of them around. If you have 3 doomsdays and 1 bane in a tourney, character ability aside the doomsdays have more chance to reach the top than Bane does.
 
Armored double punch is neutral on block, armored charge isn't punishable by anything that isn't a superman super, command grab isn't punishable unless you make a really really good read and jump at the right time. 3/5 of his attacks are safe on block, sooo.... more than half are safe.
I lose to jumps when I double punch or command grab. (also makes the charge whiff)

I haven't really ever tried charging in their face. When do you do that?
 

R3CK3Dx

KNEEL
fighting games cant be 100% balanced there will always be good characters and some that require more time and effort to use. If you cant win with him use a different character. simple
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
I lose to jumps when I double punch or command grab. (also makes the charge whiff)

I haven't really ever tried charging in their face. When do you do that?
Double punch shouldn't be jumped over unless you are throwing at the peak of their jump. It reaches hella far above his head.
As far as command grab goes, theres specific times where you should be doing it, and they aren't neutral jumpable.

Charge in their face? After a 113 or 123 on block, imo.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Doomsday has a lot more representation, to be fair. He is statistically more likely to win, even if he is the worse character, simply because there are more of them around. If you have 3 doomsdays and 1 bane in a tourney, character ability aside the doomsdays have more chance to reach the top than Bane does.
I know 2 Bane's, who were very high-level players in a previous fighting game and both went in as hard as they could with Bane from day one. Mining tech, exploring all the options, and playing against top players. Neither has any issues with execution or fighting game strategy, and they both train with some of the best players around. Yet one of the Bane's is on a team with a Doomsday player who's had 10x the results. It had nothing to do with statistical probability; it had to do with the character tools (and the Doomsday player, who's done very well for himself, agreed with this).

No one knows what the future holds, but to act like the original poster is just manufacturing this out of thin air is pretty silly, imo, until someone proves otherwise.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
I know 2 Bane's, who were very high-level players in a previous fighting game and both went in as hard as they could with Bane from day one. Mining tech, exploring all the options, and playing against top players. Neither has any issues with execution or fighting game strategy. Yet one of the Bane's is on a team with a Doomsday player who's had 10x the results. It had nothing to do with statistical probability; it had to do with the character tools.
If you had as many Banes as you did Supermen, I can promise you he would've been in the top 8. How many doomsday players are there in contrast to Banes? It has a lot to do with statistics because you have a character with 10x the representation, odds are one of them will make it farther than the Bane because theres 10 different possible routes, some easier and harder, and 10 different opponents some of which may or may not know the MUs. If you swapped it and put 10 Banes and 1 Doomsday in a tourney, I'd wager money that at least one Bane would get further in the tourney.

The key to your point is "I know 2 Banes", how many Doomsday players do you know? I fought a good Doomsday at EVO, redgie I think his name was, and I feel in all honesty that I could've beaten him. I lost to a Nightwing in the end, that was just my bad luck.