Random Rant: Had this in the buff thread but thought it fit better here. May feel slightly disjointed because of this.
Have you guys experimented much with 3 ha's? Outside of being super hard to anti air now, it doesn't seem that useful. The acceleration limit on start up is super annoying so walking back and forth to play sf style footsies isnt that viable. Also with 3 ha's, doing some combos have altered timings cuz of his changed jump arc. Granted i've been able to hit like 4 ji2's in a single combo now cuz of the short jump arc lol.
Regarding trait do we really just want longer active frames and shorter recovery? The 2 frame start up sorta sucks when compared to bats and kf's 1f parry. The shorter recovery would make it safer, but the damage still is only 11%. Is there any reason to respect that? We risk a full combo for 11% and a minor speed boost. Even if it was safer, people would still have no reason to respect it, and it is still a 50/50 cuz we have to guess high or low. Would zero recovery frames be over powered LOL? We still need to guess. The lackluster damage balances it out somewhat.
To make people fear the parry we need some crazy damage or crazy buff. Single HA joker is nothing to fear. Having a damage boost for the next combo after landing a parry could actually make people scared. I threw out the idea before, and it seemed kinda absurd, but after seeing other people's damage it doesnt seem so far now. Maybe just 1.5x damage or something. You still risk dropping the combo so it wouldn't be crazy overpowered. Actually with this he just sounds like Cyrax =='. One parry one dream? lol
Man I don't know what to do for this character. When he gets in he can do some crazy damage, but all his teeth set ups are pretty gimmicky. They only seem to be good for oki set ups and off 2,1,2. In the corner he really shines, but midscreen he seems really lacking. With my current playstyle, midscreen I can somewhat maintain continuous offense by relying on the blockable teeth to grant safe jumps, but he doesn't have any legitimate 50-50's to open people up. Unless maybe he's meant to rely on his teeth to create 50-50's.
Maybe we're just playing him wrong and he's not meant to be a 50-50 character. Maybe he's meant to played like Superman and Aquaman and just footsie people. But the range on his normals, aside from sweep, j3 and f2,3 is really lacking. Only one of these actually grant combos too. Looking at his moveset though, like everything he does gives a hard knockdown. Maybe he's all about oki teeth set ups.
Off most hardknockdowns, you can safely drop a set of teeth and block the wake up attack. Actually most attacks cancelled into teeth while people are in juggle state are safe too. So he can safely bait and punish wake up attacks with a teeth combo. Once they respect that the, teeth do grant a safe jump so you can sorta maintain pressure. But with his pressure, he has no 50-50 to get real damage.
Or maybe we are just meant to play him like sub-zero. Push to the corner and dominate with
unblockable safe teeth set ups.
I really still do not understand this character right now. He for sure isn't a zoner. He has decent pressure but doesn't seem to frame trap heavy outside of 2,1; flower blockstrings and b1 shenanigans.
Aside
Some stuff I found in the lab today.
- 3,2 acid flower on block opens up a decent whiff punish. I was able to beat Lex's 6f corps charge using joker's 13f f+2 (technically 9f since acid flower is +4 on block). Similarly I could beat corps charge with a standing 2.
- 2,1 into standing 2 only trades with corps charge. Which makes sense frame data wise since standing 2 would come out at 6f following the 2,1 which is +5.
I still have no idea why 2,1 into standing 3 beats lantern's 10f lift. Standing 3 comes out at 10f after 2,1 so it should only trade. Its point blank so it does not involve longer frames from standing further apart.
Current Bnb's
Midscreen
[opener], ex rlg, b3, d2 far teeth, j2,teeth, 2 acid flower into safe jump 2
If the 2 is blocked I get to pressure, otherwise I get an extra 30% on the end of my 40%
Corner
[opener], ex rlg, d2 teeth, j2,teeth, 2,1(first hit) teeth, 3 acid flower, 3 teeth
Does just under 40% and grants a free oki teeth set up
You have more than enough time to block wake up attacks. I can't remember if the teeth hit meaty or not. (If they do you cannot jump out)
Either way they have to commit to a jump or wake up attack to get out.I believe you can also do a meaty mb f+3 and this should beat out the jump attempt. Meaty b+1,3 should also relaunch.
Memory is hazy, i'll write everything down when I test it again. Get back to you guys on this.
Teeth Corner Loop
The current loop i'm running after landing a set of teeth is
d2 teeth, j2 teeth, 2,1(first hit) teeth, 3 acid flower, 3 teeth
Can't remember the exact damage but does just under 30% a cycle I think.
Nifty thing about this is sometimes the 3 acid flower will instead reset. You can confirm this by the higher bounce after being hit by teeth. From this you can just repeat the teeth loop. If they block it, they are denied the wake up attempt and you get a free 2,1,2 into mindgames (assuming you aren't fighting shazam or green arrow)
Really unorganised, but just stuff i've been thinking about regarding Joker.
Actually one extra thing. I've noticed with Joker alot of his combos you can pretend to drop them and block/punish the follow up wake up attack. These are huge looking drops like a whiffed b3, b2 or d2. Its a huge gimmick but its there lol. Similarly I was experimenting today with ending combos with d2 far teeth into meaty jump in. You land and block just before the wake up attack comes out so you can block and punish. For some, the teeth will even launch for you. Probably not worth cuz you have to cut so much damage, but there is some random stuff there. Maybe you guys could do more.
