General/Other - D'Vorah D'Vorah General Discussion Thread

[BornThroughAshes]

Hey guys, does anyone know the exact WGC frame data for f112, f11, 112, b1, f22 and f44? I am aware that you can only get a blockstring out of f112 but it would be interesting to know how plus (or minus) all of her strings are.

 

[TopTierHarley]

In lieu of starting our own KP 2 buff thread, I figured I'd just keep it in here.

I think we can all agree that Swarm Queen is just fine, but Venomous and Brood Mother are lacking in some area or another. Universally speaking, D'vorah could probably use a better armor move on one of her variations. I'd like to start a discussion on what areas need addressing for Venom and BM and the best way to improve them so they have a good reason to be used, as opposed to being eclipsed by Swarm Queen.

The issues with Venomous I've found most problematic are how the variation is entirely reliant on gimmicks and stagger pressure, lack of corner carry, bug spray not being plus enough on hit to guarantee pressure midscreen depending on what distance you originally hit them at, venom ticks not killing despite being a major source of damage for her, and of course having no answer to high pressure due to slow armor.

I used to think that Venomous needed an armored launcher, but after actually thinking it through, such a buff would likely break her. Even if it was reasonable damage midscreen, in the corner it would be a 45% restand or more, easily. If something like this happened, venom bonus damage scaling would have to be nerfed yet again to compensate.

I don't feel like I'm qualified to speak on Brood Mother, having not really put much time into it. My initial thoughts on it were something along the lines of it having good setups, but the ability to combo just wasn't really there (or at least it's hidden behind an execution wall I cannot surmount).

I'd love to hear any suggestions that you all may have for these two variations, or even just your opinions on what their problems may be specifically.

Brood Mother needs more frames after an ex bug blast so she can actually combo that isn't a 1-2f link. Bug Blast also needs to hit mid so she can actually have pressure off F112, there is no reason for it to be a mid in no variation but not in BM. I would also like if Krawler had less cooldown, not enough to do two in a combo, but enough to use it as a zoning/spacing tool.

Venomous needs something that isn't a gimmick, make people actually respect her options. Maybe ex spray could be -8 or something, that way we'd have to spend a bar to be "safe".

 

[TopTierHarley]

Hey guys, does anyone know the exact WGC frame data for f112, f11, 112, b1, f22 and f44? I am aware that you can only get a blockstring out of f112 but it would be interesting to know how plus (or minus) all of her strings are.

http://testyourmight.com/threads/how-dvorahs-wasp-grenade-cancels-work-and-to-properly-do-them.56523/

 

[Phosferrax]

Venomous needs something that isn't a gimmick, make people actually respect her options. Maybe ex spray could be -8 or something, that way we'd have to spend a bar to be "safe".

Except then it's not really spending a bar...

 

[TopTierHarley]

Except then it's not really spending a bar...

Shh lol

 

[Second Saint]

For venomous, what about extra plus frames on hit for bug spray? If she had enough advantage to actually move forward and b1/f2, she'd be an actual vortex character as opposed to now where you have to run to even get f2 if the spacing is wrong, which can still be back dashed. Picture corner venomous minus the massive combos, but everywhere.

Armor could potentially be something non gimicky for venomous. Whether on Bug Spray or improving ovi is the question. Alernatively, if she could just be like +2 or 3 on block with damn near any string, she'd have some actual pressure.

And as always, why the fuck is d3 a mid?

 

[TopTierHarley]

For venomous, what about extra plus frames on hit for bug spray? If she had enough advantage to actually move forward and b1/f2, she'd be an actual vortex character as opposed to now where you have to run to even get f2 if the spacing is wrong, which can still be back dashed. Picture corner venomous minus the massive combos, but everywhere.

Armor could potentially be something non gimicky for venomous. Whether on Bug Spray or improving ovi is the question. Alernatively, if she could just be like +2 or 3 on block with damn near any string, she'd have some actual pressure.

And as always, why the fuck is d3 a mid?

Definitely, that would help a lot

 

[Second Saint]

Brood Mother needs more frames after an ex bug blast so she can actually combo that isn't a 1-2f link. Bug Blast also needs to hit mid so she can actually have pressure off F112, there is no reason for it to be a mid in no variation but not in BM. I would also like if Krawler had less cooldown, not enough to do two in a combo, but enough to use it as a zoning/spacing tool.

Venomous needs something that isn't a gimmick, make people actually respect her options. Maybe ex spray could be -8 or something, that way we'd have to spend a bar to be "safe".

What if they got rid of the whole 2 bar projectile thing for brood mother and just made 2 shots the regular and 3 the ex. This makes the combos actually doable, and improves her zoning somewhat by making it harder to armor your way in. I agree with lessening the Krawler cooldown, but what about no cooldown and there can only be one on screen or in a combo (without causing a knockdown).

Just spit balling here, but what if her projectile was overhead on MB? Full screen hard-to-blockable setups. My god, that sounds far too dirty to live now that I write it down.

@VAAAAAAAAN Anything you can add on Broodmother's issues or ways to address them?

 

[VAAAAAAAAN]

I think the cool down is almost perfect right now. It'd be nice if the Krawler cool down was slightly reduced when it starts a combo but other than that I generally get pretty long combos into Krawler set ups consistently.

She needs a reliable way to set up hard knock down into meaty Krawler setups. Maybe a new variation specific string. Just something that forces an opponent who you knocked down to have to guess. Right now, without meter all of her setups are techroll-able and actually force dvorah to guess when she's supposed to be the one on offense.

They need to completely remove ex puddle from the game and make regular puddle a launcher. Her best variation, SQ, already has the best puddle and it launches and traps without meter. If Brood Mother gets meterless launches she would also reliably get hard knockdowns into setups so it kills two birds.

The meta for the whole game is fish till you win. Most viable characters are able to just do a string into safe specials. If her ex double bug blast confirm is going to be that expensive she needs a safe way to pressure and build meter for it. F112 xx Krawler only works when the opponent has no meter, but there's a hole that can be armored. If they make ovipositor safe it's worth the price it cost to convert the ex double bug blast. Lowering the hitbox on bug blast and closing the holes between strings could work too but it wouldn't be as good.

Delayed ex double bug blast would be nice too. Staggering the plus 20+ on hit attack could give her a little bit of a mind game on block. Though not much because it's still just a high.

Pie is the sky request is always going to be a ex ovipositor that launches. So, IF she manages not to get mauled by anyone with a string that is faster than 20 frames she can at least convert something, not just be rewarded with a shitty 13% into a soft knockdown. That's a big fucking IF.

Another more complicated but not unprecedented idea is to turn the 2 in the F42 string into an armorable special attack. If it retained its current properties it could still be a potential soft launch and a much needed faster reversal. It could also help with her horrible zoning weakness.

The thing is trying to balance without breaking the other variations.

 

[SimplyEgo]

Just me kinda feeling myself and showing off what happened when I played a set with my friend xD. Its not anything spectacular but I thought it looked really cool

 

[TopTierHarley]

Just me kinda feeling myself and showing off what happened when I played a set with my friend xD. Its not anything spectacular but I thought it looked really cool

Anything involving D'Vorah is spectacular.

 

[dennycascade]

I got a few questions about dvorah. First, what's the deal with that ugly ass jump1 is the hitbox disjointed like d3, d4 etc? Second, is it a legit stagger with every hit of f112? Third, how do I blow someone up for doing d4 puddle? with ferra/torr lol

 

[TopTierHarley]

I got a few questions about dvorah. First, what's the deal with that ugly ass jump1 is the hitbox disjointed like d3, d4 etc? Second, is it a legit stagger with every hit of f112? Third, how do I blow someone up for doing d4 puddle? with ferra/torr lol

Yup it is disjointed. F112 wasp is +12 and only s2, ,s1, d4, and d2 are guaranteed. B1 might be guaranteed, but my execution seems to be trash. D4 on hit is a guaranteed puddle, d4 on block into puddle can be interrupted. F/T can armor through, or if you play Lackey, you can just do regular charge. Backdash and forward jump are also an option

 

[dennycascade]

Yup it is disjointed. F112 wasp is +12 and only s2, ,s1, d4, and d2 are guaranteed. B1 might be guaranteed, but my execution seems to be trash. D4 on hit is a guaranteed puddle, d4 on block into puddle can be interrupted. F/T can armor through, or if you play Lackey, you can just do regular charge. Backdash and forward jump are also an option

Thanks for your post, this was informative! I wish I could armor through with ruthless, but tuck'n'charge has like 1 armored frame and if I reversal EX command grab, it'll grab her and then the puddle will come up under me and interrupt the throw.

 

[Folux182]

For venomous, what about extra plus frames on hit for bug spray? If she had enough advantage to actually move forward and b1/f2, she'd be an actual vortex character as opposed to now where you have to run to even get f2 if the spacing is wrong, which can still be back dashed. Picture corner venomous minus the massive combos, but everywhere.

Armor could potentially be something non gimicky for venomous. Whether on Bug Spray or improving ovi is the question. Alernatively, if she could just be like +2 or 3 on block with damn near any string, she'd have some actual pressure.

And as always, why the fuck is d3 a mid?

I think that she has a few issues thats keeping her from being able to play with the S tier. She has the universal issue of not having reliable armor with her exOvipositor being slow as hell and not granting a launch. That's fine. The main problem with Venomous is that her Venom spray does not grant her any sort of pressure midscreen and you're forced to chase them down again after a small combo. She undeniably suffers midscreen against mobile characters and characters that can play a good keep away game. She can't keep up. Especially if they know to backdash or armor after the bugspray.

I'm not saying that she needs bug spray to have armor on it but I would love it. Not having a get-off me move cripples her defense. Her fastest poke being 8 frames also does not help. Venomous needs a way of locking down the opponent midscreen. She is designed as a vortex character but with little effectiveness mid to full screen.

I think Venomous works best when you are playing more of a spacing game, capitalizing on the opponents mistakes. If Paulo wanted Venomous to be a vortex character with a major strength in the corner with clear weaknesses in defense and midscreen, I don't think we'll get any changes. But if all we got was Bug Spray being less negative, I would be more than happy.

I actually like that D3 is a mid. I use it as bait since it's only -2 and long reaching and I use it as a test to see if the opponent is trying to do something to get out of my corner pressure or is simply blocking.

 

[Second Saint]

I think that she has a few issues thats keeping her from being able to play with the S tier. She has the universal issue of not having reliable armor with her exOvipositor being slow as hell and not granting a launch. That's fine. The main problem with Venomous is that her Venom spray does not grant her any sort of pressure midscreen and you're forced to chase them down again after a small combo. She undeniably suffers midscreen against mobile characters and characters that can play a good keep away game. She can't keep up. Especially if they know to backdash or armor after the bugspray.

I'm not saying that she needs bug spray to have armor on it but I would love it. Not having a get-off me move cripples her defense. Her fastest poke being 8 frames also does not help. Venomous needs a way of locking down the opponent midscreen. She is designed as a vortex character but with little effectiveness mid to full screen.

I think Venomous works best when you are playing more of a spacing game, capitalizing on the opponents mistakes. If Paulo wanted Venomous to be a vortex character with a major strength in the corner with clear weaknesses in defense and midscreen, I don't think we'll get any changes. But if all we got was Bug Spray being less negative, I would be more than happy.

I actually like that D3 is a mid. I use it as bait since it's only -2 and long reaching and I use it as a test to see if the opponent is trying to do something to get out of my corner pressure or is simply blocking.

I agree about the main problem with Venomous, which is why I suggested more plus frames after bug spray on hit. Just enough to actually guarantee something without being point blank.

Also, I can't see D'vorah having the only mid d3 in the game as anything other than completely asinine. It would actually help midscreen quite a bit post bug spray because it doesn't have the push back of d4. And as for using it as bait in the corner to see if they're blocking or trying to escape, that's what f11 is for. Nearly as fast, far reaching, leads to a combo, neutral on block, and leads to 13% chip if you feel like rolling the dice.

REO's suggestion in the most recent update of his kp2 patch wishlist thread was to allow all ovi attacks in the throw to add a stack of venom. With 3 ovi hits, that's a grand total of 17.5% minimum per throw. If you throw someone and immediately run up and throw them again, that's 38.5%. This would allow for a whole new offensive strategy based more around getting the venom stacks as high as possible and landing a critical throw, as opposed to the minor vortex we currently have mid screen.

I mean, I've got 21% throw setups already off an njp, but adding a few additional stacks in would be amazing. Depending on when the stacks expire during the throw, it would either end up being a 25% throw with four ticks after or a 36% throw if the stacks expire after all ovi hits in the throw, which I don't think I can actually do. Also keep in mind that throws are hard knockdowns, which Venomous has little access to in most circumstances, so it creates real oki opportunities.

It might even be better to end combos with throw, though I can't be certain of that due to the current enders having either similar or more base damage (f22~ovi midscreen and 112~ovi in the corner), take less time so the venom damage won't be scaled, and of course can't be teched.

The more I think about it, the more I like this suggestion, honestly. If I had to pick one way to buff Venomous' offense right now, it'd be REO's idea for the throw. It makes everything she does have much higher potential damage, whether it's setting up stacks to increase the next combos damage, or using them up in one scary as hell throw.

 

[TopTierHarley]

Thanks for your post, this was informative! I wish I could armor through with ruthless, but tuck'n'charge has like 1 armored frame and if I reversal EX command grab, it'll grab her and then the puddle will come up under me and interrupt the throw.

No problem, yea you have to find the right armor for puddle. Everyone can backdash it though. F/T NJP might actually work if timed right

 

[Folux182]

I agree about the main problem with Venomous, which is why I suggested more plus frames after bug spray on hit. Just enough to actually guarantee something without being point blank.

Also, I can't see D'vorah having the only mid d3 in the game as anything other than completely asinine. It would actually help midscreen quite a bit post bug spray because it doesn't have the push back of d4. And as for using it as bait in the corner to see if they're blocking or trying to escape, that's what f11 is for. Nearly as fast, far reaching, leads to a combo, neutral on block, and leads to 13% chip if you feel like rolling the dice.

REO's suggestion in the most recent update of his kp2 patch wishlist thread was to allow all ovi attacks in the throw to add a stack of venom. With 3 ovi hits, that's a grand total of 17.5% minimum per throw. If you throw someone and immediately run up and throw them again, that's 38.5%. This would allow for a whole new offensive strategy based more around getting the venom stacks as high as possible and landing a critical throw, as opposed to the minor vortex we currently have mid screen.

I mean, I've got 21% throw setups already off an njp, but adding a few additional stacks in would be amazing. Depending on when the stacks expire during the throw, it would either end up being a 25% throw with four ticks after or a 36% throw if the stacks expire after all ovi hits in the throw, which I don't think I can actually do. Also keep in mind that throws are hard knockdowns, which Venomous has little access to in most circumstances, so it creates real oki opportunities.

It might even be better to end combos with throw, though I can't be certain of that due to the current enders having either similar or more base damage (f22~ovi midscreen and 112~ovi in the corner), take less time so the venom damage won't be scaled, and of course can't be teched.

The more I think about it, the more I like this suggestion, honestly. If I had to pick one way to buff Venomous' offense right now, it'd be REO's idea for the throw. It makes everything she does have much higher potential damage, whether it's setting up stacks to increase the next combos damage, or using them up in one scary as hell throw.

I like your suggestion of adding a bit more plus frames to the spray and I think would be a huge help for her midscreen. But I use the d3 over the f1,1 as bait because I want to keep them away at the range of my pokes and outside the range of their wake up option and bully them from there. But I definitely use f1,1, 2 for the chip but I'd rather not play in my opponents face.

Yeah, I saw REO's suggested change to the throw and I think it would be an awesome tool for mixup purposes and having a good hkd option would be sweet. If you don't mind me asking, what is your throw set up? I have been meaning to incorporate a throw setup but haven't come up with anything. Also I would like the option of ending combos midscreen with a grab.

 

[Second Saint]

I like your suggestion of adding a bit more plus frames to the spray and I think would be a huge help for her midscreen. But I use the d3 over the f1,1 as bait because I want to keep them away at the range of my pokes and outside the range of their wake up option and bully them from there. But I definitely use f1,1, 2 for the chip but I'd rather not play in my opponents face.

Yeah, I saw REO's suggested change to the throw and I think it would be an awesome tool for mixup purposes and having a good hkd option would be sweet. If you don't mind me asking, what is your throw set up? I have been meaning to incorporate a throw setup but haven't come up with anything. Also I would like the option of ending combos midscreen with a grab.

NJP, ji1, rc, d1, f22~db4. You have to do this combo as fast as possible to maximize damage, since one of the ticks will get scaled otherwise. A grab after this combo will do 20% damage with an additional 1.2 in venom afterwards. F22 will do 28%, jump in will break 30. Just going for d4's isn't a bad choice either. Just get the stacks higher. If they delay wakeup, they'll still eat all the venom damage and give you free oki. Now if only ovi were a hard knockdown....

Also, the corner carry on this is pretty decent.

 

[VAAAAAAAAN]

Anyone know what know what the cancel advantage is on 112? I was fucking around in training last night and I accidentally jailed reptile set to reversal ex slide with 112 wc 112. Couldn't do it again though and forgot to record it.

 

[SimplyEgo]

Anyone know what know what the cancel advantage is on 112? I was fucking around in training last night and I accidentally jailed reptile set to reversal ex slide with 112 wc 112. Couldn't do it again though and forgot to record it.

To my knowledge is roughly +3/4

 

[Second Saint]

Ok, I've been messing around with Brood Mother for a bit, and now I'm curious as to just how the timer on the Krawler works. Does anyone know for sure? Does the cool down start after krawler is cast or after it hits?

 

[SimplyEgo]

I can post a video of this if needed but doing some random testing in the lab with d'vorah i've found SOMETIMES only after you jail f112 wgc into 2 if you continue the 212 string there is an armorable gap between the 1 and 2. This is very inconsistant and I was wondering if you guys had played around with that at all.
@TopTierHarley @HoneyBee @VAAAAAAAAN @Vak Phoenix

 

[TopTierHarley]

I can post a video of this if needed but doing some random testing in the lab with d'vorah i've found SOMETIMES only after you jail f112 wgc into 2 if you continue the 212 string there is an armorable gap between the 1 and 2. This is very inconsistant and I was wondering if you guys had played around with that at all.
@TopTierHarley @HoneyBee @VAAAAAAAAN @Vak Phoenix

There has always been a gap there. If you perfectly cancel F112 wasp cancel 2, the gap won't exist. There's a video on my channel, that shows it.

 

[VAAAAAAAAN]

What are the odds of any changes to no variation D'Vorah? She's got a mid hitting fireball that does 7% but it's super fucking slow. Both ex and regular bug shot are slower than ex wasp grenade. She has 0 combos (besides 212 or njp) or block strings into it. Even with a buff to that it wouldn't be viable it'd just be a really cool buff.


PS: Anyone find any secret brutalities?