Match-up Discussion RiBBz22's Killer Frost Matchup Chart [Updated: 10/10/13]

[Qwark28]

I'm jumping regular lightning on reaction and punishing with spike ONLINE lol. Its possible man

iadash or normal jump?

 

[xKhaoTik]

iadash or normal jump?

Normal jump. I haven't tried the iadash online yet.

 

[Qwark28]

Normal jump. I haven't tried the iadash online yet.

must be that air dead zone where normal lightning normally used to hit, good shit.

i still have it dead even, its all a matter of lifelead, both punish each others zoning and both are formidable up close.

if BA didnt have his trait id have it 6 4 kf.

joker writeup coming

 

[xKhaoTik]

must be that air dead zone where normal lightning normally used to hit, good shit.

i still have it dead even, its all a matter of lifelead, both punish each others zoning and both are formidable up close.

if BA didnt have his trait id have it 6 4 kf.

joker writeup coming

Yea I agree with 5-5 as well. Like I said, the MU hasn't changed that much. His core gameplay is still the same and a Black Adam who knows how to fight KF correctly will still be tough.

Also, idk if its worth mentioning, but lightning still has an aerial hitbox behind BA. I just happened to jump over him while he was doing regular lightning and before I could land a jump attack, lightning still hit me. I don't think that matters too much tho.

 

[Qwark28]

Yea I agree with 5-5 as well. Like I said, the MU hasn't changed that much. His core gameplay is still the same and a Black Adam who knows how to fight KF correctly will still be tough.

Also, idk if its worth mentioning, but lightning still has an aerial hitbox behind BA. I just happened to jump over him while he was doing regular lightning and before I could land a jump attack, lightning still hit me. I don't think that matters too much tho.

anti air crossup lightnings yo

 

[Rickyraws]

iadash or normal jump?

Try holding down AS you fall and finish the input for iceberg.

Let me make something clear


Regular lightning will not be punished. Training mode, on a read and in a real game are completely different things.

Qwark28
You know someone accused me of abusing 'lag tactics' by punishing and parrying things with a tight window with consistency. Whether or not something is hard to punish online vs offline, we cannot lump the difficult to punish ones into the phrase 'unpunishable'. It is, and whether or not the player is able to do so is another story.

The player then went on to verbally abuse me and we have never played since. Qwark, I hope you do not fall into this category. I had once admired you....loved you even. This, of course, was before I found out that you were just another man to punish.

 

[Qwark28]

Try holding down AS you fall and finish the input for iceberg.



Qwark28
You know someone accused me of abusing 'lag tactics' by punishing and parrying things with a tight window with consistency. Whether or not something is hard to punish online vs offline, we cannot lump the difficult to punish ones into the phrase 'unpunishable'. It is, and whether or not the player is able to do so is another story.

The player then went on to verbally abuse me and we have never played since. Qwark, I hope you do not fall into this category. I had once admired you....loved you even. This, of course, was before I found out that you were just another man to punish.

That was before I took into account the easier jump window due to lightning losing its hitbox

and don't worry, Jill will always look after me.

 

[Rickyraws]

That was before I took into account the easier jump window due to lightning losing its hitbox

and don't worry, Jill will always look after me.

Ah I see. I figured as much. Very well. Glad we cleared that up. Yes, there is indeed no hostility between us. And we are cordially discussing the match up in a friendly manner.

Well, I'm off to go and play Injustice. Gonna en...enj....enj*giggle* enjoy the new patch that....that ga....that *snicker* .....*cough*

*cough* pardon me....hurrhumph....what...what I mean to say was that I'm gonna be playing some Injustice....practicing new moves and enjoying my totally untouched ch-ahahahahahAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

HAHAHAHAHAHA! Shoulda switched to Frost when you had that chance, Qwark!

 

[Qwark28]

Considering my main is actually Joker and my third is Doomsday, I can say the same.

 

[Qwark28]

Ok, lettuce begin.

Joker v KF which I have a 5-5

Joker should only gunshot rarely in this matchup to punish any icebergs. Daggers are ducked and dashed and jumped from closer.

B1 and crowbar are lifersavers. Can't be parried, only backdashed with the B1. If read, backdash is punished for 42% into half a stage of wallcarry, in the corner it's reset town. Airdashes can be D2d on reaction into 35% meterless. Properly spaced J3s are over +10 and KF cannot whiff punish them unless she backdashes as Joker jumps on a read.

Zoning is barely useable safely from both sides, gunshot and iceberg are punishable, daggers grant free movement and are easily duckable and too unsafe to use up close.

Both have formidable offense, Joker has much more damage and wallcarry on-par with Doomsday's, safe overhead and low mixup from jump distance, very good normals in J3/D2/D3/B1 and pressure + combos from blocking a J3 while still at jump distance if you attempt to move. And various ambiguous crossup setups as well as unblockables off of background bounces which lead into 75% 1 bar and one of the best corner games in the game.

Killer frost has her safe coinflip vortex and excelent mixups after but Joker eliminates those options. She also has the advantage of mostly being the first to dictate the start of offense.

It's a solid 5-5

 

[Rickyraws]

Sounds decent enough. However does this write up comprise of mainly pre or post patch analysis?
Theory fighting is not my strong suit. I believe it may be best we settle this. 1v1
If, how ever, scheduling conflicts and unforseen events cause a hindrance to such, we can also 1v1 in real life.

 

[xKhaoTik]

That looks like a good write up. I'm not all that familiar with the joker Mu. I've only played one really good joker, but I won a majorityof the matches and based my exp and mu # on that.

I would be think KF would win full screen tho. At least she can chuck daggers. Joker can't even shoot his gun because it gets ducked and punished by spike.

Other than that, the analysis seems legit. Can't argue with that.

 

[Rickyraws]

Barely know anything about the MU even though I have faced Cheezeburger or what not....he was at EVO no?

Anyway in the 2 minutes I just put in in practice, I notice his j2 can be ducked almost like Wonder Woman's Mileena tech by sweeping. If you aren't careful with your j2 it will be swept for a free untechable knockdown for us.

Crowbar out side of a combo is hella punishable.

J3 can be uppercutted, and MBB3'd for a 1 bar 45%. 45%/ ~40% into vortex.

You're right about backdashing Joker's b1. It's a good move all around. Joker has no real reason to use his gun. If the -167 recovery frames in the start menu wasn't discouraging enough against a character with a tracking move, stay tuned.


All in all I think Joker is pretty cool character and so I might actually lab him up. I know for a fact people have been sleeping on him, even though I've played Joker many times online. Decent ones. Still didn't consider myself to know the MU, though, as it's possible to get by pre-patch Joker without knowledge of his setups.Ultimately, though, I have faith in our fair maiden.

Also, wanna hear a joke?

-"How many Black Adams does it take to screw in a lightbulb?"

-"Pre patch or post patch?"

LOLOLOL!*



*It's funny because nerf

 

[Qwark28]

Barely know anything about the MU even though I have faced Cheezeburger or what not....he was at EVO no?

Anyway in the 2 minutes I just put in in practice, I notice his j2 can be ducked almost like Wonder Woman's Mileena tech by sweeping. If you aren't careful with your j2 it will be swept for a free untechable knockdown for us.

Crowbar out side of a combo is hella punishable.

J3 can be uppercutted, and MBB3'd for a 1 bar 45%. 45%/ ~40% into vortex.

You're right about backdashing Joker's b1. It's a good move all around. Joker has no real reason to use his gun. If the -167 recovery frames in the start menu wasn't discouraging enough against a character with a tracking move, stay tuned.


All in all I think Joker is pretty cool character and so I might actually lab him up. I know for a fact people have been sleeping on him, even though I've played Joker many times online. Decent ones. Still didn't consider myself to know the MU, though, as it's possible to get by pre-patch Joker without knowledge of his setups.Ultimately, though, I have faith in our fair maiden.

Also, wanna hear a joke?

-"How many Black Adams does it take to screw in a lightbulb?"

-"Pre patch or post patch?"

LOLOLOL!*



*It's funny because nerf

Frame data on whiffed projectiles is mostly wrong.

Crowbar is now safe.

J2 is only used for close jump ins and crossups. Sweep will make it whiff, not punish it. And while you whiff a whole sweep we merely deal with 3-4 landing frames

J3 can not be uppercut when done properly, this is why I said properly spaced +10 J3s. This is a J3 at barely max height, the J3 you're anti airing is a deeper one which is about +15.

I know it's not anti airable because I abuse this vs Doomsday and Grundy offline and it is ridiculously rare that it ever gets caught.

 

[Rickyraws]

Frame data on whiffed projectiles is mostly wrong.

Crowbar is now safe.

J2 is only used for close jump ins and crossups. Sweep will make it whiff, not punish it. And while you whiff a whole sweep we merely deal with 3-4 landing frames

J3 can not be uppercut when done properly, this is why I said properly spaced +10 J3s. This is a J3 at barely max height, the J3 you're anti airing is a deeper one which is about +15.

I know it's not anti airable because I abuse this vs Doomsday and Grundy offline and it is ridiculously rare that it ever gets caught.

I know crow bar is now safe....but that's on block no? Not on whiff. That's why I said outside of combos. Even Frost's slide is unsafe on whiff. You can whiff punish crowbar from full screen, though no idiot Joker player would ever do that. Slide does the trick at mid screen

Frame data was wrong. Haven't heard of it still being wrong post patch, but I haven't been looking into both the data and the community. Hector refreshingly mentioned how bad wrong frame data is counterproductive on the NRS stream, and they said major frame data fixes would be included. But really, triple digit negativity gives you the idea: Punishable by ducking and iceberg.

I never said j2 was punishable. You don't need a punish to put the opponent in an unfavorable/neutral position. Good footsies can cause the opponent to be weary of J3 ing. A good Joker can make the opponent respect the J3. Touche.

 

[Qwark28]

I know crow bar is now safe....but that's on block no? Not on whiff. That's why I said outside of combos. Even Frost's slide is unsafe on whiff. You can whiff punish crowbar from full screen, though no idiot Joker player would ever do that. Slide does the trick at mid screen

Frame data was wrong. Haven't heard of it still being wrong post patch, but I haven't been looking into both the data and the community. Hector refreshingly mentioned how bad wrong frame data is counterproductive on the NRS stream, and they said major frame data fixes would be included. But really, triple digit negativity gives you the idea: Punishable by ducking and iceberg.

I never said j2 was punishable. You don't need a punish to put the opponent in an unfavorable/neutral position. Good footsies can cause the opponent to be weary of J3 ing. A good Joker can make the opponent respect the J3. Touche.

It's punishable by iceberg which was my point but it in no way is -167 on whiff

 

[Rickyraws]

It's punishable by iceberg which was my point but it in no way is -167 on whiff

Also, Grundy has a great AA. However he also had a large hitbox. Even a character like Zatanna with a meh anti air (albeit buffed this patch) can show that two sets of testing need apply, because while Grundy has a great AA, he's big enough that his arm is near his body when he does so. Zatanna can low profile some moves like Catwoman, and while she doesn't have the best AA, her body is by default lower to the ground when she attempts to D2. What usually happens is that the d2 whiffs, the j3 whiffs but you land behind them, or it inadvertently crosses up. Best scenario this is in is with Batman's j2. I'm sure the j3 will still hit Frost even though she's got a low hitbox, but I thought it was universally recommended to do all tests on Flash, Frost, Catwoman, Batgirl and Zatanna to see whether what you're doing is universal or character specific, or will whiff against the aforementioned low hitbox characters. Women characters mostly. Hence Flash being among them; he's a bitch.

And hence Wonder Woman being excluded.

 

[Chaosphere]

1.07 patch? huh?

 

[Rickyraws]

1.07 patch? huh?

Yes. This isn't your little brother's yomi.

This is that next level yomi.

 

[RiBBz22]

1.07 patch? huh?

Yeah before the 1.08 update. I don't care if other people are calling it 1.06 the update on my screen said 1.08 and I am stubborn.

 

[ApocaLips]

What do you guys use to deal with Black Adam's divekick --> jump back 2? All i see right now is daggers.

 

[Owerbart]

Why does KF has any advantage over Grundy?

 

[RiBBz22]

Why does KF has any advantage over Grundy?

KF's zoning is effective against Grundy. WC has hella armor but it is beat by KF's b2, b23, and MB F3. Iceberg catches Grundy trying to dash in and leads to vortex. The damage for both characters are pretty similar when you factor in the vortex, and WC is great at stuffing wakeup slide but KF has ways to get around it. KF really just has to make sure she doesn't get caught by swamp hands. I really don't think KF has a huge advantage, but I definitely think she has a slight edge just because it is much more of a frustrating fight for him IMO.

What do you guys use to deal with Black Adam's divekick --> jump back 2? All i see right now is daggers.

I guess it depends on where you are when you react to it really. I will usually block the normal one and go into 50-50.

 

[RiBBz22]

Updated OP as follows after getting to play some of these matchups. Made edits to the following match-ups: Aquaman, Bane, Black Adam, Lobo.

Revision 4 (As of: 10/10/13)

* = Changed from last revision

Aquaman: 6-4 *
Ares: 6-4
Bane: 6-4 *
Batman: 5-5
Batgirl: 5-5
Black Adam: 5-5 *
Catwoman: 6-4
Cyborg: 6-4
Deathstroke: 6-4
Doomsday: 7-3
Flash: 5-5
Green Arrow: 6-4
Green Lantern: 5-5
Harley Quinn: 6-4
Hawkgirl: 5-5
Joker: 6-4
Lex Luthor: 6-4
Lobo: 6-4 *
Martian Manhunter: 4-6
Nightwing: 6-4
Raven: 6-4
Shazam: 7-3
Sinestro: 7-3
Solomon Grundy: 6-4
Scorpion: 6-4
Superman: 5-5
Wonder Woman: 5-5
Zatanna: 6-4
Zod: 5-5

Advantage MU's = 19
Even MU's = 9
Disadvantage MU's = 1

 

[M2Dave]

Aquaman: 6-4

Why do you anger Tom Brady?