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[Temjiin]

@Temjiin

I plan on testing all of Mileena's EX Fade frames on hit and block. (For my own knowledge)

Would you like that data to add to her section?

Anything that's wrong yeah for sure

 

[TakeAChance]

Anything that's wrong yeah for sure

Well these would be outside of the current data.

Like it would be testing her advantage/disadvantage off her current strings.

like 2~Ex Fade
21~Ex Fade etc.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

omg, I love that it has which strings have armor gaps!!

Good shit, guys.

 

[Temjiin]

Well these would be outside of the current data.

Like it would be testing her advantage/disadvantage off her current strings.

like 2~Ex Fade
21~Ex Fade etc.

I can incorporate that definitely.

Big question is how many other moves have variable advantage when cancelled from different strings?

 

[TakeAChance]

I can incorporate that definitely.

Big question is how many other moves have variable advantage when cancelled from different strings?

Any of them that don't have their own set of "block advantage/disadvantage" based on hitting an opponent.

Tanya would have similar frames based upon her teleport cancels, Liu Kang on his fireball cancels, Scorp with his, etc.

They are all at different advantage/disadvantage off many different strings.

 

[smokey]

@Temjiin

I plan on testing all of Mileena's EX Fade frames on hit and block. (For my own knowledge)

Would you like that data to add to her section?

This is something to make known to the guys in Mileena forums, using the frame data you can actually work out the advantage and then just test it to confirm it. Easy way to do this;
(Startup + Active + recovery) - cancel adv.+ block/hit adv = your moves cancel frames (on block/hit)
Then put the special move on it and see how much adv you get left with. So example;
Mileena b1,2~fade.
b1,2 = ( 9 + 4 + 19) with 16 cancel advantage meaning it takes 32 and cancels on frame 16 (32-16)
On hit has 17 frames of advantage so your 16+17 = 33 frames cancel adv on hit
Fade takes 47 frames in total, so take that off meaining b12~fade on hit = 33-47 = -14

Also something to take into account, the ingame data says fade has active frames, which if its just a teleport that doesnt hit or do damage, it probably doesnt... this is another kink in the in-game data that could do with a test, so if you can confirm if mileenas fade does/doesnt have active frames, let me know.

If you get the data tag me in it, I can use the numbers to confirm the cancel advantage on the strings you use, as I imagine the in-game data for cancel adv is off in a ton of places. Its only useful when finding advantage from moves that dont hit or block, and just have a set recovery time (such as the fade) so its not something Im going out of my way to test, but i wish you luck and apologise on NRS behalf for their pause menu frame data.

 

[TakeAChance]

This is something to make known to the guys in Mileena forums, using the frame data you can actually work out the advantage and then just test it to confirm it. Easy way to do this;
(Startup + Active + recovery) - cancel adv.+ block/hit adv = your moves cancel frames (on block/hit)
Then put the special move on it and see how much adv you get left with. So example;
Mileena b1,2~fade.
b1,2 = ( 9 + 4 + 19) with 16 cancel advantage meaning it takes 32 and cancels on frame 16 (32-16)
On hit has 17 frames of advantage so your 16+17 = 33 frames cancel adv on hit
Fade takes 47 frames in total, so take that off meaining b12~fade on hit = 33-47 = -14

Also something to take into account, the ingame data says fade has active frames, which if its just a teleport that doesnt hit or do damage, it probably doesnt... this is another kink in the in-game data that could do with a test, so if you can confirm if mileenas fade does/doesnt have active frames, let me know.

If you get the data tag me in it, I can use the numbers to confirm the cancel advantage on the strings you use, as I imagine the in-game data for cancel adv is off in a ton of places. Its only useful when finding advantage from moves that dont hit or block, and just have a set recovery time (such as the fade) so its not something Im going out of my way to test, but i wish you luck and apologise on NRS behalf for their pause menu frame data.

Your B12~Ex Fade calculation would be incorrect tho, because on hit B12~Ex Fade will link into 21 and extend the combo. It can't be negative.

I know a lot of her EX Fade block pressure is string dependent. It goes from negative, to hella plus on block. I don't think there is any string that doesn't allow her to continue her combo on hit tho. I planned on doing the old fashion jump test/string trade test because I do not trust any of the cancel advantage/recovery frame data.

 

[smokey]

Your B12~Ex Fade calculation would be incorrect tho, because on hit B12~Ex Fade will link into 21 and extend the combo. It can't be negative.

I know a lot of her EX Fade block pressure is string dependent. It goes from negative, to hella plus on block. I don't think there is any string that doesn't allow her to continue her combo on hit tho. I planned on doing the old fashion jump test/string trade test because I do not trust any of the cancel advantage/recovery frame data.

I didnt do EX fade, oops. The string/jump test is what i would recommend over just writing the numbers out and trusting them, but you can use this to see what strings SHOULD have awesome cancel advantage compared to their recovery/hitstun and go from there.

EX fade is only 14 frames so b12 Ex fade; 33-14 = +19 on hit. standing 2 is 8 frames so as long as you are in range and they are in a combo/juggleable state, your standing 2 is gonna combo if you push it within 11 frames

 

[Temjiin]

Would anyone be interested in uploading Predator's frame data?

Bump.

Anyone got a spare hour?

 

[OzzFoxx]

Are you going to add some new info to your gdocs tab?
wrote this above:
2) Your tab needs a DAMAGE and BLOCK DAMAGE columns! please!

3) Your tab needs a RANGE column - Close, Mid (Sweep), Long (Just outside of sweep), 3/4 screen, Full screen, Any (ex: Ice Klone for Sub Zero).

I am writing a program to be the perfect mortal kombat player (think deep blue for MKX). I won't be able to plug it into the PC version or anything to actually play, but I want to be able to enter any player/opponent status and receive the best possible response for a character in the situation. To do this, I will need these additional columns of data so I will try and do it while I'm watching EVO this weekend. If time permits, I will also add a juggle column specifying juggle follow up capability.

Also - About a month ago, I worked on a pretty intense formula for determining scaling amount. Scaling is ALWAYS a running product and 90% of the same rules apply across the board. I will try stamping this in to create an estimated scaling which could be beneficial for characters like Sub-Zero, Scorpion and Predator. But anyways, talk is cheap so I'll be back in a week to see what I was able to come up with.

 

[Temjiin]

I am writing a program to be the perfect mortal kombat player (think deep blue for MKX). I won't be able to plug it into the PC version or anything to actually play, but I want to be able to enter any player/opponent status and receive the best possible response for a character in the situation. To do this, I will need these additional columns of data so I will try and do it while I'm watching EVO this weekend. If time permits, I will also add a juggle column specifying juggle follow up capability.

Also - About a month ago, I worked on a pretty intense formula for determining scaling amount. Scaling is ALWAYS a running product and 90% of the same rules apply across the board. I will try stamping this in to create an estimated scaling which could be beneficial for characters like Sub-Zero, Scorpion and Predator. But anyways, talk is cheap so I'll be back in a week to see what I was able to come up with.

I'm going to be real here.

That's a very ambitious project that I honestly think will get little to no use. The work has already been done in telling the user how much damage they'll get because combo threads exist everywhere and with this being an NRS game, there's only 2/3 combos you'll ever really need.

As for calculating the best outcome for every situation, that's making the game too robotic in an environment where human error and decisions are so prevalent. The game can't be treated like a mechanical chess game because it's so fast paced. Watch PL play Lao and tell me how someone can use a program to train themselves to win in every outcome, it's impossible. We can't process the information fast enough to beat a top player with a program. A computer could.

I like the innovation and idea but I worry you'll invest hours and hours and hours and nobody will use it.

 

[SUGATA]

I'm going to be real here.

That's a very ambitious project that I honestly think will get little to no use. The work has already been done in telling the user how much damage they'll get because combo threads exist everywhere and with this being an NRS game, there's only 2/3 combos you'll ever really need.

As for calculating the best outcome for every situation, that's making the game too robotic in an environment where human error and decisions are so prevalent. The game can't be treated like a mechanical chess game because it's so fast paced. Watch PL play Lao and tell me how someone can use a program to train themselves to win in every outcome, it's impossible. We can't process the information fast enough to beat a top player with a program. A computer could.

I like the innovation and idea but I worry you'll invest hours and hours and hours and nobody will use it.

Your FD tab is a great work.
But if you add some more staff - i will become EXCELLENT!
1) add DAMAGE column
2) add BLOCK DAMAGE column
3) add RANGE column: Close, Mid (Sweep), Long (Just outside of sweep), 3/4 screen, Full screen, Any (ex: Ice Klone for Sub Zero).

Then your tab becomes complete!
I can make for Sub-Zero.

 

[SUGATA]

I'm going to be real here.

I added into Sub-Zero tab:
1) Damage column
2) Block damage column
3) Range column
4) Fixes some mistakes in names

How can i add this to your tab on the site (to keep this in your tab for future updates)?

 

[OzzFoxx]

I'm going to be real here.

That's a very ambitious project that I honestly think will get little to no use. The work has already been done in telling the user how much damage they'll get because combo threads exist everywhere and with this being an NRS game, there's only 2/3 combos you'll ever really need.

As for calculating the best outcome for every situation, that's making the game too robotic in an environment where human error and decisions are so prevalent. The game can't be treated like a mechanical chess game because it's so fast paced. Watch PL play Lao and tell me how someone can use a program to train themselves to win in every outcome, it's impossible. We can't process the information fast enough to beat a top player with a program. A computer could.

I like the innovation and idea but I worry you'll invest hours and hours and hours and nobody will use it.

Regarding the program itself, that is definitely more a "journey" than a "destination" thing for me personally. The sheet though, will def be helpful for others as it contains good data nowhere else available. What I've added:

1) Damage - specifying EACH hit of move/combo
1) Combo Startup - actual startup of combo (autocalculated through vlookup of move entry/startup columns)
2) Combo Scaling - amount of scaling done by each hit (may not keep, based on formula I created but too many moves are overridden)
3) Range - how far does the first hit reach (i.e. close, sweep, jump, full, all)
4) Knockdown - Soft (can't roll, but fast standup), Hard (can't roll, slow standup), Standing (left standing for mixup)
5) Juggle Height - If juggled, value between 1 and 5 where juggles only usable in the corner would be 1 while very high juggles would be 5
6) Distance - How far the opponent is sent flying after an attack
7) SAFE - autocalculated based on block adv and distance created
8) Mix/Up Start? - autocalculated based on first hit being low/OH
9) OH+L? - autocalculated, Does the move include both OH and low
10) Is it armored? - Autocalculated based on notes entered by original author
11) Has Gap? - Autocalculated based on notes entered by original author

NOTE - this for every attack from d1 to xray, special moves and variation specific. If anyone wants to see what I've got so far, message me and I'll send the spreadsheet in progress.

Data is a huge hobby of mine and its my profession. This def. isn't a chore for me so I'm happy to do it. It would make it funner if I'm not the only one using it though . The first character I did was Cassie and it took about 2 hours. I did D'vorah next and it took about an hour. Ermac finally took about a half hour. I think I can do the rest in a half-hour each now that I got a good process down. In the end, you can have a cheat sheet for a character you never play and know how to create space, plan knockdowns, maximize damage, etc.

 

[Creepy00]

Probably a typo, but shinnok f4 (shin kick?) is listed as a high. It is a low starter.

 

[ChatterBox]

Hey I'm running dry in the Sonya forums, so I figured I'd look here for someone who can correct the frame data for me.

Hey all, I have a couple quick SF frame data questions.

Her 111 string is listed as +4 on hit and 33 cancel advantage. Drone Call is listed as 1 startup and 41 recover. So shouldn't I be able to use 111xxdrone call on hit and be safe? Mileena ball roll and SubZ ex slide are punishing me every time.

F4 is listed as 48 cancel advantage. I don't know which hit it's for, but I get punished on block trying to drone call there too, on first and second hit.

So which frames are listed incorrectly? I find these super frustrating, but I'm having too much fun in the lab looking for weird drone shenanigans.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can correct my math or frame data. Something is off here.

 

[smokey]

Hey I'm running dry in the Sonya forums, so I figured I'd look here for someone who can correct the frame data for me.
Thanks in advance to anyone who can correct my math or frame data. Something is off here.

For cancel advantage you need to look at the whole move not just the + frames. For 111 its total is 18 startup, 3 active, 26 recovery.
So in total the move takes 47 frames from startup to finish. If you cancel it, you lose 33 of those frames, so your actual cancel advantage is 47-33 = 14.
Its got +4 frames on hit so you add these here giving you 18 frames of advantage when your 1,1,1 hits and you cancel it into a special move.
Drone: Spawn is 42 frames in total, 1 startup + 41 recovery so if you use this at +18, you can see that you are actually coming out at 18-42= -24 because the drone recovery is so long.

Hopefully this helps but the formula i use here:
(startup+active+recovery) - cancel adv + block/hit adv = cancel frame
Compare cancel frames with the startup+active+recovery of your special move, and you can see where you end up.

Note that with run cancels and stuff i cant figure out what is right and wrong, and also im doubting a lot of the cancel advantage frames we took from the pause menu data, as they dont work out properly.

 

[exflyingbooty]

Bandwidth Limit Exceeded
The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to the site owner reaching his/her bandwidth limit. Please try again later.

??????????????????????????????????? i got that when i tried viewing the site 2lazy2screenshot

 

[smokey]

Regarding the program itself, that is definitely more a "journey" than a "destination" thing for me personally. The sheet though, will def be helpful for others as it contains good data nowhere else available. What I've added:

1) Damage - specifying EACH hit of move/combo
1) Combo Startup - actual startup of combo (autocalculated through vlookup of move entry/startup columns)
2) Combo Scaling - amount of scaling done by each hit (may not keep, based on formula I created but too many moves are overridden)
3) Range - how far does the first hit reach (i.e. close, sweep, jump, full, all)
4) Knockdown - Soft (can't roll, but fast standup), Hard (can't roll, slow standup), Standing (left standing for mixup)
5) Juggle Height - If juggled, value between 1 and 5 where juggles only usable in the corner would be 1 while very high juggles would be 5
6) Distance - How far the opponent is sent flying after an attack
7) SAFE - autocalculated based on block adv and distance created
8) Mix/Up Start? - autocalculated based on first hit being low/OH
9) OH+L? - autocalculated, Does the move include both OH and low
10) Is it armored? - Autocalculated based on notes entered by original author
11) Has Gap? - Autocalculated based on notes entered by original author

NOTE - this for every attack from d1 to xray, special moves and variation specific. If anyone wants to see what I've got so far, message me and I'll send the spreadsheet in progress.

Data is a huge hobby of mine and its my profession. This def. isn't a chore for me so I'm happy to do it. It would make it funner if I'm not the only one using it though . The first character I did was Cassie and it took about 2 hours. I did D'vorah next and it took about an hour. Ermac finally took about a half hour. I think I can do the rest in a half-hour each now that I got a good process down. In the end, you can have a cheat sheet for a character you never play and know how to create space, plan knockdowns, maximize damage, etc.

This is cool and all but not what we are going for here. Combo's, Juggle Height, Damage, Range etc are all things that are not frame data so would be better kept to a side project or discussed in your character forums. Stuff which is applicable at a glance, such as knowing you can armour through the last hit of Cassies B124 string was easy to include as it should be common knowledge when training in the match up and looking at the advantage on the strings.

Knowing how high someone gets juggled on a scale of 1 to 5 does not meet that criteria unfortunately, the training mode still exists and I want to encourage people to actually play the game and try stuff out rather than just sit and look at spreadsheets all day (not everyone finds that as exciting as us )

 

[smokey]

Bandwidth Limit Exceeded
The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to the site owner reaching his/her bandwidth limit. Please try again later.

??????????????????????????????????? i got that when i tried viewing the site 2lazy2screenshot

In the event of the site going down, here's the direct link to the datasheets:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tU7Hqk8VtuEM3Pj1T4pKY-4dAuiO-Lkh6N4kStJGAxY

Apologies that I am poor and went for a really really shitty web host. This is likely to happen 2-3 weeks into each month until we can get a better host, sorry.

 

[GLoRToR]

Instead of bitching about the bandwidth limit, start a donation pool for a better host.

 

[smokey]

Instead of bitching about the bandwidth limit, start a donation pool for a better host.

Feel free but we need enough to host each month otherwise we get cut off completely rather than just until the bandwidth refreshes next month.

 

[GLoRToR]

Feel free but we need enough to host each month otherwise we get cut off completely rather than just until the bandwidth refreshes next month.

I have no problem using the google link, and no money to donate. Average income in my country is the equivalent of ~350USD a month.
All of that goes to taxes and what my family needs.
But all the rich kids not appreciating the work you're putting in with this can just open their wallets and get a yearplan for a host or something.

 

[smokey]

I have no problem using the google link, and no money to donate. Average income in my country is the equivalent of ~350USD a month.
All of that goes to taxes and what my family needs.
But all the rich kids not appreciating the work you're putting in with this can just open their wallets and get a yearplan for a host or something.

Im happy to do the work for free and get the data out there, if people want to find it after the bandwidth expires then they can use the google link as well. Its not ideal but the alternative is to ask for some cash which im not gonna do.

 

[GLoRToR]

Im happy to do the work for free and get the data out there, if people want to find it after the bandwidth expires then they can use the google link as well. Its not ideal but the alternative is to ask for some cash which im not gonna do.

Pretty much why I told them to instead.
Being audacious and scandalous is what I do around here after all.