Match-Up Discussion - Erron Black Why Erron Black Fails and Bleeds with a nerf

[iLLmAtiCx]

That is why Erron fails here he is losing tools that are already necessary and being given things to remove pressure such as pushback on an Ex Sand that can already be broken. 21122 Sand Needs to become at the very least a true block string if the removal of his tick throw exists. This is showing where the character fails not necessary buffs that need to exist. Erron is far to dependent of 50/50 block strings that are often guessed right.

I suppose the true problem here is why can Erron's mid pressure tool with launcher not lead to chip and be broken instead. With the given loss already of several tick throws being removed. That means there is no true way to make Erron safe anymore. He is far to reliant on 50/50s that exist within his character. These 50/50s cannot be made safe into chip tools however and most can be broken by something as simple as a poke. So where is Erron's pressure especially with meter? Are you going to beat them to death with 21122 or are you going to continuously get punished with meter on a 50/50 that characters like kano can jail.

 

[9_Lives]

- 21122 EX sand grenade has a gap? It didn't before right? That sounds kind of weak.

21122()~ex sand grenade has always had a gap no matter where it's cancelled iirc. Unless I misread the question...in which case sorry lol.

SF makes Erron look super good. I kinda started jumped ship as soon as I saw that 21122 armor reversal option select tech (still really good against Tremor and anyone with slow reversals though.)

 

[iLLmAtiCx]

21122()~ex sand grenade has always had a gap no matter where it's cancelled iirc. Unless I misread the question...in which case sorry lol.

SF makes Erron look super good. I kinda started jumped ship as soon as I saw that 21122 armor reversal option select tech (still really good against Tremor and anyone with slow reversals though.)

Absolutely its existed since the beginning but there is not threat of tick throw, it now has pushback so you cannot continue the string if it is blocked (where is the pressure) he has no pressure without his 21122 and if it is learned hey we can break this the character will bleed until he is bottom tier. It will become a game of 50/50s with no jailing and no pressure. Easily bottom tier.

 

[Youphemism]

Jesus christ I can't tell if this is the most hilarious Commando upplaying thread or the most horrendous Erron Black downplaying thread.

 

[iLLmAtiCx]

The real question is why would anyone bother when kano

Jesus christ I can't tell if this is the most hilarious Commando upplaying thread or the most horrendous Erron Black downplaying thread.

Its a breakdown of a matchup. Many people got off topic and I have to be honest.

 

[DDutchguy]

Jesus christ I can't tell if this is the most hilarious Commando upplaying thread or the most horrendous Erron Black downplaying thread.

Beta Commando is likely being referred to, who seems like quite the beast when you look at the reported beta changes. Of course this is all just theory, we can't know anything definitive until the patch has arrived.

Erron Black is downplayed a little bit yes, but there are legitimate weaknesses being mentioned here. Fighting with EB against an optimal opponent that exploits all gaps and can do the armor option select very consistently would be a nightmare. That kind of opponent is of course extremely rare and the option select is very difficult in my opinion.

Btw Erron Blacks can't you just do F1xxEX-grenade to throw off people trying to armor out of F13xxEX-grenade?

 

[iLLmAtiCx]

Beta Commando is likely being referred to, who seems like quite the beast when you look at the reported beta changes. Of course this is all just theory, we can't know anything definitive until the patch has arrived.

Erron Black is downplayed a little bit yes, but there are legitimate weaknesses being mentioned here. Fighting with EB against an optimal opponent that exploits all gaps and can do the armor option select very consistently would be a nightmare. That kind of opponent is of course extremely rare and the option select is very difficult in my opinion.

Btw Erron Blacks can't you just do F1xxEX-grenade to throw off people trying to armor out of F13xxEX-grenade?

Let me ask you this haha and it will make it clear how annoying it is to face people as Erron Black without 21122. Have you ever tried anti airing then doing one of Erron slow start up fifty fifties on a kitana or kung jin or Tanya or takeda that just keep jumping and NJPing you? you have no spacing without that string and it leaves you right in front of them to be NJPd again. Just try getting a forward 1 3 without it. Your skin will start to burn

 

[iLLmAtiCx]

Let me ask you this haha and it will make it clear how annoying it is to face people as Erron Black without 21122. Have you ever tried anti airing then doing one of Erron slow start up fifty fifties on a kitana or kung jin or Tanya or takeda that just keep jumping and NJPing you? you have no spacing without that string and it leaves you right in front of them to be NJPd again. Just try getting a forward 1 3 without it. Your skin will start to burn

I do love Erron though absolutely. Nobody has asked me how I believe it does with other matchups. Without Gunslinger and the coming 7 frame down 1 though pressure is real and it hurts bad when they break your only pressure then start NJPing you

 

[iLLmAtiCx]

Jesus christ I can't tell if this is the most hilarious Commando upplaying thread or the most horrendous Erron Black downplaying thread.

If you want me to tear apart Commando Kano when the patch drops then sure I'll make a thread and be sure to refer you to it. I promise you though as a guarantee there will be very few holes as opposed to here and you are going to have a harder time thinking what would I do in that situation as opposed to that.

 

[iLLmAtiCx]

If you want me to tear apart Commando Kano when the patch drops then sure I'll make a thread and be sure to refer you to it. I promise you though as a guarantee there will be very few holes as opposed to here and you are going to have a harder time thinking what would I do in that situation as opposed to that.

While i'm at it I might even look at Ferra/Torr's 73% one bar

 

[Baconlord]

How the hell is a 50/50 easily guessed

 

[DDutchguy]

How the hell is a 50/50 easily guessed

He likely meant it in the sense of that F13 has a lot of range and thus is the more likely option to go for. B33 isn't done very often because of this, meaning you're more likely to get hit with overheads than lows. Midscreen at least, corner is your general 50/50 stuff.

 

[iLLmAtiCx]

How the hell is a 50/50 easily guessed

I am talking about the general community. Not higher levels of play exist in all scenes. In the high level of play how much easier was it to jail someone and build meter with shinnok then have to worry about a 50/50 that leaves you vulnerable even with meter. People are far too sensitive to the 50/50s on Erron I've said it myself he has 50/50s I won't downplay them I also love the character. How many Errons have you faced and blocked a 50/50 on though. They're repetitive aren't they? Not all but it happens

 

[iLLmAtiCx]

He likely meant it in the sense of that F13 has a lot of range and thus is the more likely option to go for. B33 isn't done very often because of this, meaning you're more likely to get hit with overheads than lows. Midscreen at least, corner is your general 50/50 stuff.

Overhead starters for Erron are much more effective this is true.

 

[iLLmAtiCx]

This got way off topic. Its likely assumed i'm just a butthurt Erron main that's upset about the nerfs. I upset with the way the way this character now performs of course but I adapt lets talk about the matchup. Kano is a more viable choice. I can try to discuss it from the other perspective but with the coming buffs its really hard to defend.

 

[HeroesNZ]

Erron is still good and that's coming from a Marksman player which is like, bottom -10. If you wanna pick Commando over Erron then go ahead.

 

[DDutchguy]

This got way off topic. Its likely assumed i'm just a butthurt Erron main that's upset about the nerfs. I upset with the way the way this character now performs of course but I adapt lets talk about the matchup. Kano is a more viable choice. I can try to discuss it from the other perspective but with the coming buffs its really hard to defend.

Be aware that a title like "Why Erron Black fails and bleeds with a nerf" is the sort of title I'd expect in an 'Erron is now trash' thread, not a Kano v Erron matchup thread.

 

[iLLmAtiCx]

Truthfully this is an open discussion lets not brake it down to illmatic defends or bashes on a character against certain theories. In this

Erron is still good and that's coming from a Marksman player which is like, bottom -10. If you wanna pick Commando over Erron then go ahead.

No truthfully I am still looking forward to the faster marksman run cancels and love the character both from the vibe and his playstyle.

 

[iLLmAtiCx]

Be aware that a title like "Why Erron Black fails and bleeds with a nerf" is the sort of title I'd expect in an 'Erron is now trash' thread, not a Kano v Erron matchup thread.

That is because Kano can now do much of what Erron can and does it much better. If it wasn't such a bad matchup for Erron I would love to make a case otherwise. My brother and I have played it back a hundred times and if you play offline a lot like I do this is a rough playstyle especially once you've played it back plenty of times.

 

[iLLmAtiCx]

That is because Kano can now do much of what Erron can and does it much better. If it wasn't such a bad matchup for Erron I would love to make a case otherwise. My brother and I have played it back a hundred times and if you play offline a lot like I do this is a rough playstyle especially once you've played it back plenty of times.

This matchup is about remaining unpredictable and adjusting and reacting to the gameplay. Erron simply cannot adjust the way Kano can especially when you play it back. You can try to space better but once these holes are learned you pay for it and often.

 

[iLLmAtiCx]

If someone can make tech here to make it more favorable such as the faster marksman cancels then it could help the matchup and remain more unpredictable. The pushback on the Ex sand hurts and if they jump after and get that jump in it hurts a lot but if they stay grounded then you have enough room to go in for a mixup with forward 1 3 or 1 2

 

[cambros22]

This matchup is about remaining unpredictable and adjusting and reacting to the gameplay. Erron simply cannot adjust the way Kano can especially when you play it back. You can try to space better but once these holes are learned you pay for it and often.

Why didnt you just make this a Kano vs erron matchup discussion..
Naming potential unfavorable matchups as a reason for why a character isnt good doesnt give your case strong evidence. It just means that character may do much better in the matchup. Erron doesnt struggle against everyone in the cast. and with these changes he still wont struggle with everyone in the cast.

 

[iLLmAtiCx]

Keep in mind as well we are all pre beta unless offline and this is all BEFORE with the plays I do offline. I've showed him many of the holes and we've learned the strings. With the ways these characters are changing can Erron survive the matchup while kano not only gets stronger but Erron loses his tools

 

[iLLmAtiCx]

Why didnt you just make this a Kano vs erron matchup discussion..
Naming potential unfavorable matchups as a reason for why a character isnt good doesnt give your case strong evidence. It just means that character may do much better in the matchup. Erron doesnt struggle against everyone in the cast. and with these changes he still wont struggle with everyone in the cast.

I've never stated any besides Kano. That was the point. It is even named Kano vs Erron Black. I've even stated to ASK me my opinion on matchups with other characters.

 

[Bomborge]

21122 ex sand grenade is still a true blockstring. Cancelling into anything that wasnt the last hit of 21122 has always been armorable which you continuously did in the video.

that is also some serious downplaying of sos3. That does ridiculous chip, can armor break some moves on oki as well or even off 21122xxsos3. It has the gap, but its necessary since its a pretty solid move.

Lastly, you act like every Kano player will be stuffing your d4 with low parry. You're in a controlled enviroment, so unless you become ridiculously predictable with d4s, it won't happen all the time as shown in the video. I can see the 21122 whiff parry, but you shouldn't just throw it out without proper spacing.

Erron is without a doubt worse off with those beta changes, but this has downplaying written all over it.