CaseyJones
Noob
Even better thenim talkin bout when you have him in the corner and he blocks the 212 n try tou get out with teleport..
if you caught him with the ex slide.. you can also do the brady thing with 222
Even better thenim talkin bout when you have him in the corner and he blocks the 212 n try tou get out with teleport..
if you caught him with the ex slide.. you can also do the brady thing with 222
typically you won't. He is too fast and has too many ways to stay mid screen.Problem with that for me is... I can never get KL to the corner. He's all over the place on me.
Well the problem is if you do naked 224 on block you are something like -13 and can be fully punished especially because you are very close to the opponent. On the other hand, 224-ice clone not only reduces the disadvantage but prevents the opponent from advancing on you or else they're frozen. I mean if you have conditioned them to respect the clone then sure you will get away with the odd 'no-clone'. But it's better to put the clone out after all blockstrings. The only way you can get blown up is an armour attack but that forces them to use meter. Without a clone there you can get punished hard if the opponent knows it.Thoughts on not ending blockstrings with clone midscreen?i don't like to put distance between certain MU's and just don't clone.
22 and 224 should never be done point blank anyway,212 is the string i mainly use.Well the problem is if you do naked 224 on block you are something like -13 and can be fully punished especially because you are very close to the opponent. On the other hand, 224-ice clone not only reduces the disadvantage but prevents the opponent from advancing on you or else they're frozen. I mean if you have conditioned them to respect the clone then sure you will get away with the odd 'no-clone'. But it's better to put the clone out after all blockstrings. The only way you can get blown up is an armour attack but that forces them to use meter. Without a clone there you can get punished hard if the opponent knows it.
Even if it is done at further distance, fast advancing normals will punish it or 100% you will have to block an opponent's strings so you have just given up your offense. Clone prevents that. Plus 22/224 is better mid-screen in the neutral game. I only really use 212-ice clone for the corner set-ups.22 and 224 should never be done point blank anyway,212 is the string i mainly use.
no it isn't,22 is a tool to check on your opponent,you're only -6 which is at worst a max range d4 with no consequences other than 3% damageEven if it is done at further distance, fast advancing normals will punish it or 100% you will have to block an opponent's strings so you have just given up your offense. Clone prevents that. Plus 22/224 is better mid-screen in the neutral game. I only really use 212-ice clone for the corner set-ups.
I don't get what you're saying tbh. You think 21 is a better string mid-screen? You are right about the 224 string but that's the best way to hunt your offense as a Sub Zero player because the damage done of 22 hit confirm is greater than 21/212. Plus you can do it from further away.no it isn't,22 is a tool to check on your opponent,you're only -6 which is at worst a max range d4 with no consequences other than 3% damage
22 is used as a check,the only reason you'd add 4 is for teaching your opponent to respect your options or the occasional blockstring to clone.
212 is -11,i'd rather sit through half a sec of neg frames at a decent distance than force myself out.
212 is unpunishable except by very fast specials,224 NEEDS a clone to stay unpunished.I don't get what you're saying tbh. You think 21 is a better string mid-screen? You are right about the 224 string but that's the best way to hunt your offense as a Sub Zero player because the damage done of 22 hit confirm is greater than 21/212. Plus you can do it from further away.
The main point is ending with clone is the safer option so why wouldn't you do it?
How is it -6 max range? Isn't 212 -11 on block? Also 22 freeze can lead into B121 reset or 214-slide for corner push. Considering the nature of Sub's game you need a life lead and corner push. That's what he excels at, turtling and corner domination. 21 doesn't really offer that. It's just as hard to punish max range 224. In fact you can whiff the first 2 and because of the large hitbox of the second 2 (and it comes out so quickly afterwards) you have to respect it. 21 on whiff is easily punished. Besides clone off 224 puts you at optimal spacing level, just outside or touching on max range D4. That's where you want to be mid-screen.212 is unpunishable except by very fast specials,224 NEEDS a clone to stay unpunished.
i think i'll sacrifice 4% damage in order for the ability to choose my spacing and not be punished for it.
Just checked btw,2 iceball can punish 224 but not 212,you have the option of cloning,i almost always choose not to,-6 on max range means i can't poke straight away,from then on your can read/counterpoke
212 is basically the same but i always block vs certain chars
the only way you'd whiff 21 is if your opponent jumped back/low hitbox/you got baited.How is it -6 max range? Isn't 212 -11 on block? Also 22 freeze can lead into B121 reset or 214-slide for corner push. Considering the nature of Sub's game you need a life lead and corner push. That's what he excels at, turtling and corner domination. 21 doesn't really offer that. It's just as hard to punish max range 224. In fact you can whiff the first 2 and because of the large hitbox of the second 2 (and it comes out so quickly afterwards) you have to respect it. 21 on whiff is easily punished. Besides clone off 224 puts you at optimal spacing level, just outside or touching on max range D4. That's where you want to be mid-screen.
Oh sorry didn't realise you meant 22. Nightwolf or Cage cannot punish with F3? Nightwolf's punish would have to be just frame anyways but for the most part you are correct. Fast specials and same applies to 224. 212-ice clone actually has slightly less pushback so you are inside D4 range. But as you said the random bug thing can occur. Does that also apply mid-screen (the bug)? Or only corner? I know the 1 in 21 advances but still an easier whiff punish than 22 which is near impossible.the only way you'd whiff 21 is if your opponent jumped back/low hitbox/you got baited
22 is -6 no matter which range you hit it from.
212 is -11 on block,punishable only by very fast specials,no normals.
212 b12 22 slide has same pushback as 22 freeze jip 214 slide
212 clone puts you at the same distance as 224 clone,unless the random pushback bug happens.
the 1 in 21 is an advancing move
comfort zones differ from player to player as long as it's within a beneficial zone ofc.
Right now i'm trying to play a more aggressive subzero i REALLY want to use @Dark Rob 's motto of "clones are more dangerous off the screen" (or was it THTB,i forget) and it's working,i force my opponents to respect the clone.Oh sorry didn't realise you meant 22. Nightwolf or Cage cannot punish with F3? Nightwolf's punish would have to be just frame anyways but for the most part you are correct. Fast specials and same applies to 224. 212-ice clone actually has slightly less pushback so you are inside D4 range. But as you said the random bug thing can occur. Does that also apply mid-screen (the bug)? Or only corner? I know the 1 in 21 advances but still an easier whiff punish than 22 which is near impossible.
Besides I think we have to go back to the original claim you made. I still maintain all blockstrings should end with clone. Even if there is no definite punish for naked 212 or 224 or whatever, you relinquish your offense. Put a clone out and the opponent will think twice before approaching you. That's the key.
Thanks for sharing your ideas anyways man. As I said, you can get away with no clones if they respect the clone in the first place. I mean this applies to any string or follow up special in MK9. Getting someone to respect something extra allows you to cut short and explore more offensive options.
Like D4-clone? Not a fan. D4 (finish animation)-clone? Absolutely. Clone is bigger. You do not need to cancel the D4 since it is neutral on block anyways. As you correctly stated, clones are more dangerous off screen. I just think that because you are at disadvantage from a block string you HAVE to (imo) clone after. However in the neutral game you should not auto clone. It is more scary when it isn't there. Bait the opponent and then throw out a clone to scare them. I agree with that.Right now i'm trying to play a more aggressive subzero i REALLY want to use @Dark Rob 's motto of "clones are more dangerous off the screen" (or was it THTB,i forget) and it's working,i force my opponents to respect the clone.
i think you've confused my point or i didn't even mention it (lol),the 212 is used when i wanna stay close,i'd only stay close vs matchups i can't rush away from,i'm almost sure none of those can punish me.
besides,i could 21,21 clone,212 clone,that's the beauty of it,they can't be sure i won't clone.
the bug happens everywhere.
i'm slowly getting convinced 212 may not be the way to go,leaning more towards 21 clone,less overall pushback,2% less chip and 8% less of a bar but if you dash you're in max d4 range.
how do you feel about pokes cancelled to clone?
off of a jip i used b1 xxd4,it's a nice mixup,if they try to block low or interrupt the poke they get hit by 2 for full combo.Like D4-clone? Not a fan. D4 (finish animation)-clone? Absolutely. Clone is bigger. You do not need to cancel the D4 since it is neutral on block anyways. As you correctly stated, clones are more dangerous off screen. I just think that because you are at disadvantage from a block string you HAVE to (imo) clone after. However in the neutral game you should not auto clone. It is more scary when it isn't there. Bait the opponent and then throw out a clone to scare them. I agree with that.
I don't think aggressive Sub works tbh. You have to play Brady style Sub Zero. The more Sub is pressing the offense, the more likely it is you will get blown up if you make the wrong moves. I just keep it simple tbh and stick to 224 mid screen. Nothing wrong with 212 or 21, just I feel it works better in the corner when I am in the opponents' face and I am forced to press the issue.
I still use the odd 21 mid-screen but I am always looking to throw after that to net 12% guaranteed damage. The 21-21-21-21 gimmick days are over . I like 21-clone. I do B12-clone as well sometimes off a JIP (don't use B1 in the neutral game).
It's a nice mix-up and less risky than B1-slide. I do man but getting a new one. Old one died . So when I do I will add you and we can duke it out . Might take 2 weeks though.off of a jip i used b1 xxd4,it's a nice mixup,if they try to block low or interrupt the poke they get hit by 2 for full combo.
You have a PS3?
i have a feeling i never wrote that i intended to do what i do after a successful d4lol
enjoy getting the 1 in the 2,1 string to hit and not being able to confirm anything after.
2,1,2 is not good midscreen... it has no footsie use.
You can't follow up anything after...... its zero on block... and if you get the 2 blocked, you wont' be ableo to confirm the 1 if you planned on doing another rep. So you get alot of the (2),1 dash crap.
2,2 has almost d4 range and covers behind your head. You can confirm the 2,4 ... because you aren't going to "pressure" after a 2,2. 2,4~slide is VERY easy to confirm. Thats more damage.
I will say that i've started using 2,1,4 after I confirm a d4 alot more.... no clone. It has the pushback is only -9... most players hesitate when they don't see a clone... and I can usually get a 2,2,4 out.
You can't whiff the 2 in 2,1 and not pay for it. You WILL get punished more often than not, by a cross up more than likely (which is HUGE damage).
All in the eye of the beholder. But I have tremendous success with 2,2 as my lead footsie tool and d4 as my counter footsie tool.
2,2 also gives you the advantage of seeing someone jump and still eating the other 2 and a freeze (because if you whiff the sword, freeze doesn't come out anyway). Small things like this make the string SO much better in open space.
what do you think you did wrong?STB CharlieMurphy
knoterror
Semi Evil Ryu
Seapeople
o-BEEF_SUPREME-o
@ every sub zero player
Watch this fight againt XBL Mind Gamez and tell me what I need to work on please. I'm soooo pissed at myself for losing this match I had the thing multiple times but let it get away and lost 0-2. ugh
http://www.twitch.tv/xblmindgamez/b/319473592
My fight starts at the 1:00:19 mark ... there's also footage of me playing some rain player toward the beginning, like 20 minutes in if you wanna see that. (where I did much better lol)
Pretty much what Charlie said. You played almost exactly like I would against Cage as well.STB CharlieMurphy
knoterror
Semi Evil Ryu
Seapeople
o-BEEF_SUPREME-o
@ every sub zero player
Watch this fight againt XBL Mind Gamez and tell me what I need to work on please. I'm soooo pissed at myself for losing this match I had the thing multiple times but let it get away and lost 0-2. ugh
http://www.twitch.tv/xblmindgamez/b/319473592
My fight starts at the 1:00:19 mark ... there's also footage of me playing some rain player toward the beginning, like 20 minutes in if you wanna see that. (where I did much better lol)
The only thing I can think of is too much jumping.what do you think you did wrong?