Strategy - Sun God The problem with Sun God's charge system

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

No, instead, as decided by NRS, if you want to go lvl 3, use your damage for the most damage possible or do a simple tick throw, you're never going to see the corner.

At least that's how it goes in my matches. I play Kotal for 2 days, both those days I can remember maybe 3 instances where I cornered people and that was because they didn't let me grab them as often.

And sadly, normal throw, S4 or even D2 are the best sun ray setups.

does a 114 cancel give you a safe sun ray setup?

 

[Qwark28]

does a 114 cancel give you a safe sun ray setup?

Pretty sure it doesn't.

The setups I mentioned are the only ones that give you guaranteed 3-4 "ticks" vs mid tier characters and 2-3 vs top tier characters who typically run at you up to jump distance where they typically have a reaching normal e.g cassie/sub/jax

The problem with those setups is that meterless combos are just fine to do ray from, encouraged even. Once you lvl the grab to 3, you start sacrificing chunks of 6-7% damage in order to get a ray out in a 1 bar combo.

And for sacrificing that damage, wouldn't you spend another bar to make the regen worth it?

It's annoying to try to distinguish actually useful setups and moves from the noob trap ones, especially in such a young game.

 

[Reauxbot]

As much as id like to play this character.. Theres always something like this ruining it for me

 

[SEV]

Kotal has 100% guaranteed safe Sun Ray set ups by doing(tested against Slippery Slide, you recover in time to block or back dash before it hits):

F2 F2 4 Sun Ray (22%)
B1F2 F2 4 Sun Ray (19%)
F34 Sun Ray (12%)
F12 DF1(ex) 4 Sun Ray (20%)
114 DF1(ex) 4 Sun Ray (26%)

No big damage set ups but getting Sun Ray up heals, obviously, and forces movement from the opponent to try and get them do make a bad move on their approach against Kotal's footsies.

 

[Qwark28]

Kotal has 100% guaranteed safe Sun Ray set ups by doing(tested against Slippery Slide, you recover in time to block or back dash before it hits):

F2 F2 4 Sun Ray (22%)
B1F2 F2 4 Sun Ray (19%)
F34 Sun Ray (12%)
F12 DF1(ex) 4 Sun Ray (20%)

No big damage set ups but getting Sun Ray up heals obviously and force the opponent to try and come in against Kotal's footsies.

These are the "noob traps" I'm referring to, I was also considering these until I realised one thing.

Kotal is not a character who can afford to drop his damage so drastically when his entire game is of respect and trying to sneak in unsafe shit because your entire moveset is in the -10/12 range.

You dropped 9% damage in the first combo for 2% regen. Are you really going to do this vs someone like subzero, kitana, jason etc?

F2 F2 F2 into throw is 31% into the same setup.

Second combo you drop 7% damage

Third combo is actually fine but I'd never do f34 midscreen unless I was desperate for a knockdown and into ex plate toss

Fourth combo you give up from 19 ( safe sun ray setup ) to 25% damage ( L3 command grab )

 

[SEV]

These are the "noob traps" I'm referring to, I was also considering these until I realised one thing.

Kotal is not a character who can afford to drop his damage so drastically when his entire game is of respect and trying to sneak in unsafe shit because your entire moveset is in the -10/12 range.

You dropped 9% damage in the first combo for 2% regen. Are you really going to do this vs someone like subzero, kitana, jason etc?

F2 F2 F2 into throw is 31% into the same setup.

Second combo you drop 7% damage

Third combo is actually fine but I'd never do f34 midscreen unless I was desperate for a knockdown and into ex plate toss

Fourth combo you give up from 19 ( safe sun ray setup ) to 25% damage ( L3 command grab )

Why are these noob traps? If you want to put it the way you're looking at, the only time you would only get 4 ticks is if they use a full screen move to try and punish your safe set up, in which case you can full combo punish after blocking because I doubt their full screen advancing move will be safe, so the set up did it's job because you sacrificed some damage for a free full combo.

And again, it's not so much about the regen, it's about forcing your opponent to try to open you up with Kotal's great defensive abilities, rather than getting 10% more damage then being forced to work your way in again after every touch with your negative pressure and high rish low reward command grab set ups. And if they aren't aggressive about getting you out of your Sun Ray, you can get up to the 10% health in regen that you dropped from your combo.

And anyways, I'm not saying you should give up the damage 100% of the time, it's all obviously situational, but to discredit the viability of the set ups due to damage loss seems pretty stupid to me, because just like any set up, you sacrifice damage for the better possibility for future damage, and seeing how Kotal doesn't have options unless if he's on top of you, this seems like a good way to shift the momentum of the neutral game to be his Kotal's favor.

Edit: Misunderstood something you said, but the rest still stands.

 

[Qwark28]

Why are these noob traps? If you want to put it the way you're looking at, the only time you would only get 4 ticks is if they use a full screen move to try and punish your safe set up, in which case you can full combo punish after blocking because I doubt their full screen advancing move will be safe, so the set up did it's job because you sacrificed some damage for a free full combo.

And your first sentence is counter intuitive to how I feel Sun God should be played. I think you should get your touch they convert into a safe Sun Ray set up. If you get it up, Kotal shouldn't have to be the one working his way in anymore, because he's sitting in a ray healing. You make the enemy try to get in on you, rather than the other way around. The only time you should have to "sneak" your way in is if you're playing the neutral game without a Sun Ray up.

And again, it's not so much about the regen, it's about forcing your opponent to try to open you up with Kotal's great defensive abilities, rather than getting 10% more damage, than being forced to "sneak" your way in again after every touch. And if they aren't aggressive about getting you out of your Sun Ray, you can get up to the 10% health in regen that you dropped from your combo.

And anyways, I'm not saying you should give up the damage 100% of the time, it's all obviously situational, but to discredit the viability of the set ups due to damage loss seems pretty stupid to me, because just like any set up, you sacrifice damage for the better possibility for future damage, and seeing how Kotal doesn't have options unless if he's on top of you, this seems like a good way to shift the momentum of the neutral game to be his Kotal's favor.

These are noob traps because the combos you have posted are not at all optimal. S4 may seem like a good option but you can get the exact same setup with combos that do higher damage. Giving up 10% damage is something no kotal would ever do because optimised combos exist that drop way less of that in order to set up the ray. I'm not discrediting the viability of the set ups, I'm questioning your choice of combo because S4 is a noob trap, I even mentioned to you that a better optimised combo in F2 F2 F2 throw/D2/f12 gives the exact same damage for no damage loss when it comes to a meterless bnb.

No, I've tested multiple run speeds from fullscreen off of nearly every knockdown Kotal has, if people run up to your face it is 4-5 ticks with the average run speed. Smart people will do a far reaching normal which limits you at 4 ticks.

The entire metagame sun ray setups is as you said, people trying to stop you from healing. Your footsie tools are some of the best in the game and the opponent knows just how far they hit and how hard.

In the end, you sacrifice at least the damage a "proper" combo would do in order to heal that amount or more back.

His regen is not enough for you to play defensively, Kotal catching you and constantly doing mixups off of sun ray enders while regening life and having the lead is a dream we all had before we played kotal. What ends up happening is that you typically gain back a little life and then back off/go in. You're not going to go in this meta of " I constantly fill my health up and force my opp to come in" unless you're playing very specific matchups.

 

[SEV]

These are noob traps because the combos you have posted are not at all optimal. S4 may seem like a good option but you can get the exact same setup with combos that do higher damage. Giving up 10% damage is something no kotal would ever do because optimised combos exist that drop way less of that in order to set up the ray. I'm not discrediting the viability of the set ups, I'm questioning your choice of combo because S4 is a noob trap, I even mentioned to you that a better optimised combo in F2 F2 F2 throw/D2/f12 gives the exact same damage for no damage loss when it comes to a meterless bnb.

No, I've tested multiple run speeds from fullscreen off of nearly every knockdown Kotal has, if people run up to your face it is 4-5 ticks with the average run speed. Smart people will do a far reaching normal which limits you at 4 ticks.

The entire metagame sun ray setups is as you said, people trying to stop you from healing. Your footsie tools are some of the best in the game and the opponent knows just how far they hit and how hard.

In the end, you sacrifice at least the damage a "proper" combo would do in order to heal that amount or more back.

His regen is not enough for you to play defensively, Kotal catching you and constantly doing mixups off of sun ray enders while regening life and having the lead is a dream we all had before we played kotal. What ends up happening is that you typically gain back a little life and then back off/go in. You're not going to go in this meta of " I constantly fill my health up and force my opp to come in" unless you're playing very specific matchups.

To be honest if all you're going to get is a few ticks from Sun Ray, I think that's okay. It's primarily a conditioning tool I feel, the regen is just a bonus. If you think they're going to use a long reaching normal then you can react accordingly(armor, parry into special, back dash into whiff punish, etc). And if what you say is true about being able to sacrifice minimal damage and get up a guaranteed, unpunishable Sun Ray with these other set ups then why not do so?

Also testing the F2 F2 F2 Throw/D2, are those 100% safe? Testing against Slippery Slide and I'm getting punished, am I just not getting my Ray off quick enough?

 

[Qwark28]

To be honest if all you're going to get is a few ticks from Sun Ray, I think that's okay. It's primarily a conditioning tool I feel, the regen is just a bonus. If you think they're going to use a long reaching normal then you can react accordingly(armor, parry into special, back dash into whiff punish, etc). And if what you say is true about being able to sacrifice minimal damage and get up a guaranteed, unpunishable Sun Ray with these other set ups then why not do so?

Also testing the F2 F2 F2 Throw/D2, are those 100% safe? Testing against Slippery Slide and I'm getting punished, am I just not getting my Ray off quick enough?

The regen is the conditioning tool itself, one can't exist without the other.

The mindgames after is that a smart opponent will try to threaten you off of the beam by running at you but staying in a safe distance away, you just need to know when he will realise that you're calling out his bluff by staying inside.

Now, my scene's players all play either high chip or mixup heavy characters so I rarely do this but if you run into matchups where you can, you can opt to condition your opponent to this mindgame and then just stay inside the beam until they approach. If they're someone who needs to take risks and your defense is solid, it's possible to bait people into letting you regen a solid 12-15% of your hp. I sometimes use blood offering right after an EX ray to add to the intimidation factor.

Throw and D2 are 100% safe from 8f ex slide from SZ so I assume yes.

 

[Qwark28]

One thing I would love to see is a costless blood offering when standing inside of sun ray.

 

[KeyserSoze]

One thing I would love to see is a costless blood offering when standing inside of sun ray.

This is actually a very interesting idea.

 

[Xoftrot]

One thing I would love to see is a costless blood offering when standing inside of sun ray.

That's a brilliant idea!

 

[Shonuff]

I want this to be a discussion about his sun charge system as well as a thread that gathers attention to the perceived problems of Sun God.

I have been picking up exclusively Sun God and have noticed a lot of misunderstood and unsure properties about him, as if the developers didn't know what he should be.

Let's start with the command grab.

The command grab is 14f, a bit slow but not bad.

The whiff recovery is 49, absolutely horrible.

LVL 1 - 7%
LVL 2 - 11%
LVL 3 - 16%

There is an obvious trend here. The game rewards you for accumulating charges, up to 3.

At first, the command throw is almost not worth using, it does absolutely pitiful damage and is the only armoured wakeup he has. It leaves your opponent right next to you.

Moving on, after you land one command grab, you get up to 11%. It's less than a regular throw but at least you can work with this. It leaves the opponent a little further on.

The last stage is 16%, now this does good damage and is a noteworthy reversal that actually feels like a real command grab. On hit, it sends your opponent 3/4 of the screen away.

The rewards are the following for consuming the charges

5% HP
8% HP
12% HP

.20 of a bar
No idea
A bar


It costs meter to turn the charges into life. It is supposed to be only for when you really need it, as evidenced by the terrible scaling and the bar sacrifice. The same applies to meter, but you obviously don't need to spend any to "turn in" your charges, you use this when in need.

Now, there is a problem.

Obviously, you must balance the acquisition and expedition of charges, you gain something for keeping them, gain something for paying to get rid of them.

The problem is that his command grab doesn't do noteworthy damage, why would someone ever stop blocking when the threat is a 40% combo and the maximum punishment is 7 and 11% at the start, respectively? Who cares if you land a command grab unless it's lvl 3? Were the rewards worth it, sure, but the reward in the end is a command grab that does the same average damage as every other command grab in the game. And what is your reward for getting stuck with so bad damage on it? Emergency life/meter of a scale such that it can only be put to use in moments of desperation because it is simply not worth doing so anytime else.

So we've established the fundamental problem of those charges, you give up too much for something too situational and small.

There's another problem. Kotal's lvl 3 command grab sends the opponents 3/4 of the screen. Why?

If you want to summon a sun ray, you can end your combos with S4 ~ Ray or several other enders to get a safe beam out which is used to bait your opponent. L3 grab fails to fullfill that purpose and doesn't add that much damage in the case that you'd use it instead, only 3% or so. Any other lvl of command grab leaves them at either a safejumpable distance or otherwise within pressure range anyway. The third one fails to be of use for both safejumps and setups.

This isn't a buff/nerf thread. I want to discuss this with the Sun God community, just spare me the "you just need fundamentals and some good reads" because that same thing can be said for any fighting game character, there is no denying Sun God's conflicting rewards, sacrifices and setups.

Well im glad im no tthe only one who thought this. It was always laughable the amount of health and meter you get for losing all the charges.When you get level 3 you want to keep all the charges because his command grab is all he has and to lose it for a messily few percent of health ore little to no meter is just handicapping yourself.

Its almost as if NRS felt giving him more health and meter would break him but if you consider his core mechanics, its all he really got.

 

[Xoftrot]

Yeah his core mechanics and frame recovery times need to be sped up and made more viable for competition level, which is what pretty much everyone agrees on, or make his command grab more like Zangief's trademark command grab, so he has the ability to pwn more.