Tech The Blue Magician: SUB-ZERO Tricks & Traps.

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

So Sub-Zero...he's a sneaky son of a bitch.
But since his last great alteration at the hands of King 1.05, he's begun to run a little low on surprises.
He still endures because of the evolution and adaptation of his players...but he could always use a nudge.

So this thread, it exists for we, the Lin Kuei, to share our favorite means of trickery and frozen deceit.
The best ways in which our pal, Sub, can make an opponent want to headbutt THEMSELVES in the skull.


See, one of the reasons I started favoring Cyrax and others over Sub, Stryker, Shang, Jade is...well, dumb.
Every fighting game I've ever played, my #1 guy has had one thing: a Teleport.
I don't know why, I've just always felt more at home with fighters who had the means to vanish out of trouble.
Some people are Tier Whores. Box is...well, was...a Teleport Whore.
Cyrax, Ermac, Raiden, Scorpion, Mileena...whore, whore, whore, whore, whore.

But then Box-Zero Vs Maxy Cage happened, and I realized my whoredom was killing my playstyle.
I realized there were way more important things in MK than Teleport-based shenanigans.
Like stopping JC frametraps. Man, I fucking hate Johnny Cage. Like 9.95 hates Liu Kang level hate. But anyway...
So when I elected to go back to Mr. Zero, I went the opposite direction: instead of building a fighting style around Teleports, I'd build one to defend against it and try and turn my Sub into an Anti-Teleporter. So every TP'ing character I fight Online/learn to fight against in the Dojo, etc., I'm trying to develop different methods, baits, convoluted schemes to use their Teleports against them, be it by Clones, F4's, 22's...hell, 3F4 has even proven itself useful in certain situations.
I'm gonna start penciling away in the notebook and get everything down so I can bring it here for judgement. I figure it'll be a hell of a headstart to have a sneaky plan or two on hand for some of these goddamn Tele-murder strategies people have got nowadays.

So how do you guys make the magic happen with Subby?
Let's make like Steve and sit down in the icy Thinking Chair and think.

 

[SpideR]

whit suby-zero i use some pressure like:
-2,1 -dash 1,3,(b4 lowhit- f4 medium kick)
-d4 clon cancel
-b1,2,(4 lowhit- 1 medium hit- or njp if he want jump)
-2,2,4 clon, ice ball, ice ball, b2 cancel dash (this is good versus teleporters why the enemy think in the third ice ball)

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I think people rely on the clone at mid screen too much. I also think most Sub Zero players don't know how long a clone lasts. (high level yes... and some opponents don't know it). If someone just stays back... usually that is a sign that they don't know it lasts roughly 3 seconds. I've jumped in time after time with JC after counting it down and catching Sub just standing there. I think Rob also pointed out that the proximity doesn't care about low kicks.

In any case... I tend to play a "flowchart" Sub Zero with my own little twists. I still like using the b2 stuff. I catch many people trying to jump it or I miss time it on purpose hoping the opponent see's an opportunity to escape. To me that is a risk that can be taken, especially if you are down on life. I also tend to not immediately clone after my strings... seeing if my opponent is even paying attention. I d4 a ton. I almost make my opponent over respect it. I tend to not d4~clone till later in match ups... I like people not expecting it in clutch situations. I've caught many NW shoulders, JC shadow kicks, and just random pokes because they were trying to counter footsies me.
I dont' f4 a ton, only on punishment OR if someone just down blocks on a clone. To me it is just TOO slow and easy to fuzzy guard. I do like the f4 slide... since slide seems to just POP out after it. I know its a huge risk... but sometimes just throwing it out can make anyone very block happy.

Doing 2,1 at least twice is also a must in my mind.... 2,1 2,1 d4 2,1 2,1,4~clone builds a ton of meter, keeps opponents off balance, and can create mistakes.
B1,2,1 is also a good tool after a freeze... or if you catch a lazy projectile. It also is the max damage... which is good since Sub does probably top 5 worst damage in the game. Rob's explanation in the other thread of b1,2,1 is perfect in my mind on how to use it.... and what to follow it up with.

Honestly, the key to Sub Zero is execution and patience. You can not miss opportunities. You have to capitalize on mistakes, and move your opponent to the corner. That is where Sub Zero is un matched in pressure. Even just a few dashes away from the corner... your opponent will start to take risks to get out... Sub can win an entire MATCH by simply moving the opponent near the corner in the first round.

Sub does not deal with cross up pressure well. Armor eats him. clone doesn't recover fast enough... and most of his pressure strings can be interrupted by a well timed armor move or a poke.

I still think he has the 2nd best Xray in the game, with Johnny Cage's being number 1. I think it is one of the few X-rays that can get 50% off of a simple 3 hit string. It shuts down all zoning. On block it gives you free pressure. It is VERY fast.

 

[ryublaze]

Something new I've been trying with Sub-Zero is

B1, 2, Ice Ball, jip, B1, 2, B2 dash cancel, 2, 2, Ice Ball or 4 Ice Clone (if blocked)

I'm not exactly sure if the opponent can poke out of it, but from online experience it has worked for me numerous times. The 2 animation starts while the opponent is still in stun state from B1, 2. This is just a fun trick I like to use.

Something else I like to do is if my opponent has a breaker and I freeze them, I'll use B2 uncharged. If fully charged and the opponent is holding F+Block then B2 hits. Otherwise B2 uncharged hits and leads to pressure.

In the corner throw into clone:

B1, 2, 1, dash, 2, 1, 2, Ice Clone, throw opponent into clone, tech roll, jip, repeat

Btw, I try to use Sub-Zero differently from other Sub-Zeros so I'm always messing around with gimicks online.

 

[Jim]

B1, 2, Ice Ball, jip, B1, 2, B2 dash cancel, 2, 2, Ice Ball or 4 Ice Clone (if blocked)

Is the b1,2 b2 supposed to be b1,2,1 b2? Seems like if you do it the way you wrote you both recover at the same time, where as b1,2,1 ends in a stagger. If it is b1,2,1 b2 do you dash in before the b2? I don't think they're close enough in the stagger state but I could be wrong.

 

[ryublaze]

Is the b1,2 b2 supposed to be b1,2,1 b2? Seems like if you do it the way you wrote you both recover at the same time, where as b1,2,1 ends in a stagger. If it is b1,2,1 b2 do you dash in before the b2? I don't think they're close enough in the stagger state but I could be wrong.

I mean B1, 2, (combo stops here) charge B2 but dash cancel as soon as possible. The opponent is still in stagger state and you can start 2 before they recover. It might be able to be poked out of with a 6 frame jab but I can't test it accurately due to online. The B2 isn't necessary but your opponent might think you're going for a fully charged B2.

 

[Dark_Rob]

I mean B1, 2, (combo stops here) charge B2 but dash cancel as soon as possible. The opponent is still in stagger state and you can start 2 before they recover. It might be able to be poked out of with a 6 frame jab but I can't test it accurately due to online. The B2 isn't necessary but your opponent might think you're going for a fully charged B2.

Why would you purposly drop a combo thats guaranteed damage and just give it up for chip damage? It isnt a mixup. Since the opponent isnt frozen he can jump away(or worse crossover) if you go for the full charge and if you just do a quick B2 dash cancel your just gonna get block damage. So whats the point? Why not just take the guaranteed damage youve already got with the first combo?

 

[ryublaze]

Why would you purposly drop a combo thats guaranteed damage and just give it up for chip damage? It isnt a mixup. Since the opponent isnt frozen he can jump away(or worse crossover) if you go for the full charge and if you just do a quick B2 dash cancel your just gonna get block damage. So whats the point? Why not just take the guaranteed damage youve already got with the first combo?

How is it not a mix-up? Your opponent will have to guess whether to keep blocking or jump away (which they can be hit out of the air with 2, 2). I could have sworn that the opponent could get hit by fully charged B2 if he tried to jump. I understand that if the opponent blocks then it's just chip damage, but I guess you can say the same thing for ending with B1, 2, 1.

B1, 2, 1 is probably better due to more damage but like I said, this is just a fun thing I like to do. Sub-Zero's B2 is one of my favorite moves to mess around with.

 

[Dark_Rob]

How is it not a mix-up? Your opponent will have to guess whether to keep blocking or jump away (which they can be hit out of the air with 2, 2). I could have sworn that the opponent could get hit by fully charged B2 if he tried to jump. I understand that if the opponent blocks then it's just chip damage, but I guess you can say the same thing for ending with B1, 2, 1.

B1, 2, 1 is probably better due to more damage but like I said, this is just a fun thing I like to do. Sub-Zero's B2 is one of my favorite moves to mess around with.

Its not a mixup because they arent frozen. B2 while they are frozen is one thing, the opponent has to guess at the moment of impact whether to block or not block. Here its not a mixup because the opponent can act at anytime. Look if you do a B2 and cancel after doing B1,2 Il block your follow up string everytime. You just traded full damage for chip damage. If you go for the full charge B2 I have plenty of time to recognize this and jump out of the way. Or even worse if you try to full charge B2 I could just 2,2,ice blast myself. Im not frozen, I can move. See what Im saying? I block first and if you go for full charge i jump or attack.

B2 is a decent mixup when the opponent is frozen because then he has to guess at the moment of impact. But honestly its not what it was earlier in the games life. So many characters have armor now on enhanced moves that they dont even have to bother guessing their way out.

B1,2,1 is much better because again they have to guess between a throw and anything else at the point of impact.

The difference between yours and these others is that yours gives your opponent multiple ways out at different times while the others have a 50/50 chance at the point of impact and no time else.

 

[ryublaze]

Its not a mixup because they arent frozen. B2 while they are frozen is one thing, the opponent has to guess at the moment of impact whether to block or not block. Here its not a mixup because the opponent can act at anytime. Look if you do a B2 and cancel after doing B1,2 Il block your follow up string everytime. You just traded full damage for chip damage. If you go for the full charge B2 I have plenty of time to recognize this and jump out of the way. Or even worse if you try to full charge B2 I could just 2,2,ice blast myself. Im not frozen, I can move. See what Im saying? I block first and if you go for full charge i jump or attack.

B2 is a decent mixup when the opponent is frozen because then he has to guess at the moment of impact. But honestly its not what it was earlier in the games life. So many characters have armor now on enhanced moves that they dont even have to bother guessing their way out.

B1,2,1 is much better because again they have to guess between a throw and anything else at the point of impact.

The difference between yours and these others is that yours gives your opponent multiple ways out at different times while the others have a 50/50 chance at the point of impact and no time else.

I see what you're saying. The thing I like about B2 charge is that you can cancel it at anytime so if I see my opponent jump I'll dash cancel into 2, 2 but that requires fast reactions. Do you know if fully charged B2 hits if the opponent tries jumping out? If not, I'll try testing tomorrow.

EDIT: The opponent can jump out safely if you do, 1, 2, fullly charged B2.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

I <3 B2 Cancel shenanigans.
Going FS, charging and giving the opponent the "Oh shit, he's open, ATTACK!" face jus to cancel out and melee away.

Has ANYONE found a good use for 3F4 or F41/2 yet?

 

[Dark_Rob]

I see what you're saying. The thing I like about B2 charge is that you can cancel it at anytime so if I see my opponent jump I'll dash cancel into 2, 2 but that requires fast reactions. Do you know if fully charged B2 hits if the opponent tries jumping out? If not, I'll try testing tomorrow.

If a fully charged B2 hits an opponent whether they are standing or jumping it will refreeze them.

(The rest of this post is general and not directed at RedRaptor.)
The biggest problem I see with most Subzero players currently is that they havent changed with the game. After the last patch I stopped playing the game for like 2 months. When I came back, I came back fresh. I forgot everything I learned about subzero previously and rebuilt him from scratch. I developed him for this game and for this patch. Nothing from before matters.
The 2 biggest things Sub players are still hung up on(whether they want to admit it or not) are resets and the ground freeze. In previous patches Subs EX ground freeze into guaranteed full charge B2 was a huge part of his game. Sub was a much more aggressive character previously for two reasons:
A) The EX ground freeze reset did over 50% damage for only 1 bar. Sub only needed to hit you twice per round(without counting breakers) to win. He could be reckless and aggressive because he just needed to touch you to hurt you bad.
B) The dash. The previous dash offered great manuverability and the ability to close the distance fast.

So how has losing these two things changed subzero? Well hes gone back to basics in some ways. Hes much more footsie oriented than previously. Because the dash isnt as good as it was before so walking has become much more important. Walking foward AND backwards is part of his game now, whereas it used to be just always foward. Moving your opponent towards the corner is still important, but its done differently now, and more slowly. Slowing the dash down has slowed the game down. This isnt such a bad thing if you change Subzero accordingly. he cant just dash his way through heavy projectile characters as well as he used to. So sometimes its better to just hang back and duck projectiles all round and frustrate your opponent into coming at you. You really have to play the clock alot more now as well. Remember you dont have to beat your opponent, you just have to be ahead on life when the clock runs out.
Once Subby gets in its more important for him to remain there now then it was before. This is one reason the B1,2,1 string has gotten alot more attention than previously. It was always a good string as Shoryuken demonstrated early on but the EX GF into B2 reset was so much more devastating that people focused on that more, and rightly so.

The biggest piece of advice I would suggest to Subby players is to forget about the ground freeze setups, they are all worthless. Forget the move even exists. Your living in the past, in a version of the game that no longer exists. And really tone down the B2 stuff. It isnt anywhere near as good as it used to be. Focus on fundamentals, footsies,spacing,PATIENCE(I cant stress this one enough), slowly working your opponent to the corner, and ice clone baits. Yes the ice clone bait is still a big part of his game. Develop good setups for it. When your opponent gets caught by it and facepalms himself for it, thats when you know you did your job well. Learn what moves are punished by a fast advancing special(thats your slide) because some moves that you might not be able to get a full combo punish on you can still get the slide(and even more important, the knockdown)
When you do get inside, you have to stay flexible and unpredictable. Do something different everytime or if you do the same thing twice in a row do it to condition your opponent so they expect the same thing the next time and you do something different, not because your just stuck in the same old pressure patterns that you use everytime. Think dynamically, watch your opponents choices in given situations and remember them for next time. Subzero often puts his opponents in the same situation over and over. How they react is your key to baiting them.
We all know Subs best pressure strings are D4 - 2,1 and 2,2. Thats old news, but really develope different ways to use them and be flexible with your use of them. If you condition your opponent to expect a 2,1,2,1 than switch it up with 2,1,4 and see if you catch them with the 4. That tells you hes trying to interupt after 2,1. Remember this and use it. Change it up often, USE THROWS. They are more important to Subbys game than before.

Subzero is not a gimmick based character. NRS has taken all the really dirty stuff. You have to take Subzero back to basics, back to fundamentals.

 

[RampaginDragon]

The biggest piece of advice I would suggest to Subby players is to forget about the ground freeze setups, they are all worthless. Forget the move even exists. Your living in the past, in a version of the game that no longer exists. And really tone down the B2 stuff.

I thought you could still do the ground freeze reset if you dash in after 212 IB then what a couple fractions of a second then EX GF right into the reset. It works when I do it to people. I would think you could wake up attack but it never happens and I get te reset off. And I think the B2 mix up are still fairly usable and should be thrown in occasionaly. I don't play SZ a lot, but these tricks still work for me. But maybe im just getting lucky with him, like I said, I don't use him a lot.

 

[Dark_Rob]

I thought you could still do the ground freeze reset if you dash in after 212 IB then what a couple fractions of a second then EX GF right into the reset. It works when I do it to people. I would think you could wake up attack but it never happens and I get te reset off. And I think the B2 mix up are still fairly usable and should be thrown in occasionaly. I don't play SZ a lot, but these tricks still work for me. But maybe im just getting lucky with him, like I said, I don't use him a lot.

2,1,2,Ice blast into EX groundfreeze does not work anymore. If you do it they just slip and fall on the ice puddle. If you wait until they drop to do it a wakeup attack will beat it everytime. There is no reliable setup for ground freeze. The move is essentially worthless.

The B2 reset is still usable and i never said it wasnt. What I did say is it isnt as useful as in previous versions of the game and shouldnt be the center of your offense with Subzero. The 50/50 you create with b1,2,1 is better than the 50/50 you create with B2. But as I said also, stay flexible and unpredictable. If your gut tells you to whip out the B2 then whip it out. Trust your instincts. There is no 100% correct way to play Subzero. My post above is just an outline of what I believe are his strongest assets and what I believe to be the most advantageous strategies.
But its not the individual tactics that matter. Its the mental ability of the player.

Ive spent the past few weeks working on reinventing my Subzero against good players like Scoot magee,Riu48 and Check and so far I feel like what Ive outlined above is heading in the right direction.

 

[RampaginDragon]

2,1,2,Ice blast into EX groundfreeze does not work anymore. If you do it they just slip and fall on the ice puddle. If you wait until they drop to do it a wakeup attack will beat it everytime. There is no reliable setup for ground freeze. The move is essentially worthless.

The B2 reset is still usable and i never said it wasnt. What I did say is it isnt as useful as in previous versions of the game and shouldnt be the center of your offense with Subzero. The 50/50 you create with b1,2,1 is better than the 50/50 you create with B2. But as I said also, stay flexible and unpredictable. If your gut tells you to whip out the B2 then whip it out. Trust your instincts. There is no 100% correct way to play Subzero. My post above is just an outline of what I believe are his strongest assets and what I believe to be the most advantageous strategies.
But its not the individual tactics that matter. Its the mental ability of the player.

Ive spent the past few weeks working on reinventing my Subzero against good players like Scoot magee,Riu48 and Check and so far I feel like what Ive outlined above is heading in the right direction.

I wasn't disagreeing with you. And yes I agree the B2 50/50 isnt as good but in certain situations, can be helpful.

And I guess you awnsered my question about the reset, I guess I am just getting really lucky with him. Though I hardly ever use him anymore. I know what the patch did to ex ice puddle and the reset, I was just saying that for me people never wake up and knock me out of ex gf, which gave me the idea that maybe they couldnt.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

[MENTION=9821]Dark_Rob[/MENTION] dropping the base knowledge. Thank you sir.

patience is such a tough thing to learn in this game... especially when there are other characters that have the "instant effect" type of gameplay.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

[MENTION=18]Dark_Rob[/MENTION] dropping the base knowledge. Thank you sir.

patience is such a tough thing to learn in this game... especially when there are other characters that have the "instant effect" type of gameplay.

Real talk.
I said it in one of the chats...everyone in this game's so goddamn determined to rush and claw ans speed to death, while Sub-Zero's the one guy who when he wants to can step back and slow it down and just say "Hey.............................Chill."

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Real talk.
I said it in one of the chats...everyone in this game's so goddamn determined to rush and claw ans speed to death, while Sub-Zero's the one guy who when he wants to can step back and slow it down and just say "Hey.............................Chill."

I honestly believe that if online Ranked was made to be best 2 of 3... people would fundamentally understand the game better. Better footsie knowledge, better understanding of punishing and overall upping the level of play.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

I honestly believe that if online Ranked was made to be best 2 of 3... people would fundamentally understand the game better. Better footsie knowledge, better understanding of punishing and overall upping the level of play.

Man, I didnt even try Ranked until like...*thinks* august? Yknow how pissed I was when I found out it was just one match at a time? Not to mention the fact that most times, on a good day, it takes about a good 2 to 3 minutes just to find that ONE match? Let alone one that doesnt desynch, Game No Longer Available, or lag like a fucking old lady crossing a highway...Ive played maybe 10 Ranked matches, ever. If you got more than one match out of a person at a time, it might be a different story, but at a match apiece, it just isnt worth it.

Player Match isnt too bad, though. Especially on that rare occasion I find another Subby.
Idk why everyone hates on the Zero Mirror Match. Its the best grind in the game. No one'll teach you his ways better than another Sub.

 

[NB Semi Evil Ryu]

Man, I didnt even try Ranked until like...*thinks* august? Yknow how pissed I was when I found out it was just one match at a time? Not to mention the fact that most times, on a good day, it takes about a good 2 to 3 minutes just to find that ONE match? Let alone one that doesnt desynch, Game No Longer Available, or lag like a fucking old lady crossing a highway...Ive played maybe 10 Ranked matches, ever. If you got more than one match out of a person at a time, it might be a different story, but at a match apiece, it just isnt worth it.

Ranked has been a lot better since August, imo. It usually takes me no more than 30 seconds to get matched up with someone and I cannot even remember the last time that I saw a desynch. Despite the fact that it's not 2 out of 3, you may want to give it another shot...up to you, though.

Edit: Although, I just now noticed that it looks like you only play on PSN. Everything that I described above has been for Xbox Live, so I haven't a clue on PSN.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Ranked has been a lot better since August, imo. It usually takes me no more than 30 seconds to get matched up with someone and I cannot even remember the last time that I saw a desynch. Despite the fact that it's not 2 out of 3, you may want to give it another shot...up to you, though.

Edit: Although, I just now noticed that it looks like you only play on PSN. Everything that I described above has been for Xbox Live, so I haven't a clue on PSN.

xbox has better connection stuff... PSN seems to have more players. *sigh*
He is right though. I usually only have to play 2 scrubs before I get a decent player to pop up. Ryu smacked my Johnny Cage around a few days ago actually. It does lead to matchup experience... that is for sure.

 

[NB Semi Evil Ryu]

xbox has better connection stuff... PSN seems to have more players. *sigh*
He is right though. I usually only have to play 2 scrubs before I get a decent player to pop up. Ryu smacked my Johnny Cage around a few days ago actually. It does lead to matchup experience... that is for sure.

Figures that PSN would have the more players...

I think that I remember playing your Johnny. It was more like closer to two weeks ago, wasn't it? We'll have to play some more, sometime. Both the holidays and Star Wars The Old Republic have been eating (more like chowing down) into my MK time, so I need any excuse to fire it up if not for just a little bit.

 

[charlieonline]

Some things to note, a half b2 stands the guy up and puts them in stagger when they low hit/slide into a clone. Things like Mileena roll, d4's, Sub/Rep slides, Stryker rolls. You can then go into b121 stuff.

My issue is setting up the b121. When I get it, it's amazing. Especially when you apply Dark Rob's tactics and do a ton of throws first and then switch to combos once they get sick of your throws and start teching. It's amazing, at that point you truly get 50/50 and it's amazing when you land 2 in a row.

I think Dark Rob needs to help us in setting this up. Aside from what I mentioned above, I find it a bit tricky to setup mainly because I tend to 21, 21 pressure up close and not 22 since the 22 is negative on block.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

If 360 has PS3's population, and PS3 had 360's better connectivity, Online would be a much less mehhhh kind of place.

So which do you guys prefer: the EX Kamehameha Freeze, or the EX Slide?

 

[charlieonline]

If 360 has PS3's population, and PS3 had 360's better connectivity, Online would be a much less mehhhh kind of place.

So which do you guys prefer: the EX Kamehameha Freeze, or the EX Slide?

They are both good but I tend to ex slide more than ex kamehameha. Online you get zoned so hard as Sub I find you have to waste the meter just to shut the guy up.