Match-Up Discussion - Takeda Takeda Matchup Discussion

st9rm · May 28, 2015

since we don't have a thread like this, i decided to make one
as a takeda main, i would go with the following (left being takeda, right the opponent):

(i myself play shirai ryu, when it comes to opponents, i'd pick their "most popular" variations
e.g: erron: outlaw, kung jin: bojutsu, quan chi: summoner etc..)

Cassie 5-5
D'vorah 4-6
Ermac 5-5
Erron Black 4-6
Ferra/Torr 6-4
Goro 6-4
Jacquie 5-5
Jason 6-4
Jax 3-7
Johnny 4-6
Kano 5-5
Kenshi 6-4
Kitana 5-5
Kotal 4-6
Kung Jin 4-6
Kung Lao 4-6
Liu Kang 4-6
Mileena 4-6
Quan Chi 5-5
Raiden 4-6
Reptile 6-4
Scorpion 5-5
Shinnok 6-4
Sonya 4-6
Sub Zero 6-4

Discuss!

Kensou · May 29, 2015

Will be updating this as per my own experiences in conjunction to the information posted by each user. I will cite everyone's information for credibility sake and make it cohesive as a whole.

CASSIE

Her mixup and quick buttons are what make this match up tough. Much like most Takeda matches you want to keep her at a set distance (in Ronin b1/d3/d4/b2 spacing and in Shirai Ryu b2 spacing) for the most part. She's too dangerous up close to try and contest her outside of maybe throwing. In Ronin you can keep her in check on wakeup with Blade Recalls to stuff her armor moves and force some respect. Shirai its tougher but can be done with EX Kunai (HOLD) > b2 which costs meter but is really effective and damaging.

Make sure to punish her Getaway Flip with 44 or micro dash 44 into the most damaging combo you know from that starter as its a ton. In Ronin you can net 37% with 1 bar and iirc Shirai Ryu can do the same if not more. In Ronin even though you can reflect her projectile be careful that her startup for it is fast and hard to react to unlike the other NON gun users.

All in all for now once again, you follow the no.1 rule of Takeda...don't let them in and mind your spacing.

D'VORAH

I think this is one of Takeda's worst personally as once she gets in her quick buttons maul him too badly for him to get much of anything started. Ronin its bad but you have EX Shoryu to rely on while Shirai Ryu has EX Fist Flurry which armor loses to committed strings. And in D'Vorah's case, b1 string starter rocks this freely meaning she can do this all day to Shirai Ryu with no worry of wake up options AFAIK. She has no wake up options that are worth worrying about. But when it does happen her EX Stab is what it'll be, and its not hard to punish but they'll put it out there to keep you on your toes.

What really sets this match off as one of Takeda's worst is that she has everything possible to shut him down. Speaking on speed, dmg, range, run cancels and an amazing inside game that Takeda just has a hard time dealing with period. Her f22 string starts in 22f while Takeda b2 is 24f with more range. Again, if you factor in her overhead is 2f faster ON TOP of her ability to close the gaps on Takeda in a flash its just down hill. What makes matters worse is that you have NO quick button to press to attempt to disrespect and get her off. Meaning without meter in ANY variation for that matter gets shutdown when your back is in the corner.

Long story short, mid neutral don't whiff or get mauled to the corner by run cancel pressure. In the corner, its rough with no meter.

Just about the same problems as Swarm Queen but with slightly less damage and she can force re-stand with the Bug Spray. What makes matters worse is that ANY attack with a bug limb inflicts poison damage aka damage over time. This means even basic pokes like d3, d4 and even f22 have this property. Unfortunately it stacks making her footsies just that much more deadly and making her end winning potential way higher due to the stacking. This means trading in footsies is not going to end well even in the best case scenarios in neutral unless its a round ender and you can take the damage.

She can also abuse the bug spray in block strings due to her being able to hold and release at will. At max hold its combo punishable however if you don't react to the release be it early, mid, late, mid late, immediate release, you may not get the combo punish. In most cases I personally tend to aim for a d2 punish as its the fastest thing you can get outside of a throw attempt which both are punishes but the throw can be tech'd.

Bottom line, her footsies are improved and she mauls at a slower pace. Damage over time helps her seal the deal for her end game situations.

ERMAC

In this match you can play your normal game with Takeda in Both Ronin and Shirai Ryu however I'd go out on a limb and say Ronin has a bit more of an advantage over Shirai due to the reflecting of 3Soul Soul Ball. Ronin's reflect on 3Soul Soul Ball will net a jump in combo that leads to 41% with one meter and 30% with no meter. With all this it makes the reflect game really strong in the neutral game and forcing Ermac to play a bit more risky.

One of his major strings f21d2 can be interrupted with armor of if you want to play it safe then back dash away. However keep in mind if you back dash you get no punish but you gain the neutral space again. Also when he gets his mixup game going if you block f4 > Soul Ball/EX Tele he's -23f on Soul Ball and Tele he's -17f so you net 44 as a punish into the most damage you can in any variation. Same goes for if you block b3 into the above you punish the same. Of course its not easy but the best part is nailing a 44 into big damage if you block correctly in his mixup game.

It seems relatively even in Shirai and a fairly SLIGHT advantage in Ronin only due to the damage you get from a Soul Ball reflect. Overall its tough in some spots, but for the most part doesn't feel too difficult.

Soul Ball Punish - Proof of Concept

JACQUI

This match is pretty even if you run Ronin or Shirai. Closing the distance so she can't use the Hand Cannon seems to be the name of the game here. And even if so you can duck it and should she decide to EX it you have 3 options:

RONIN
-Reflect-
Duck the first portion then reflect the EX on reaction.

UNIVERSAL
-Jump > Tornado Strike-
Duck the first portion then jump forward into Tornado Strike. Easiest and most practical when full screen.

-EX Tornado Strike-
Duck the first portion then EX Tornado Strike on reaction into damage.

-EX Flurry- (Spacing specific)
Duck the first portion then EX Flurry on reaction into damage.

-Situational- Proof of Concept: Armor through Hand Cannon EX

Once you understand how to deal with the Hand Cannon you can take advantage of her wake up. Specifically speaking on her EX Force Rush, you can meaty D3/D4 and it will go through you and you can punish accordingly. In other instances, all of her specials are pretty negative on block so you know what to do should you see them on block.

Not much else to explain on this match up specifics. Much like Kano its pretty cut and dry. Do the normal Takeda dance with a little extra offensive power and you should be ok.

KANO

This match hasn't gotten that much better since the most recent patch where they nerfed his B1 a bit. It's still a problem. Shirai Ryu and Ronin imo seem to do the best vs him with some decent results. In neutral with Ronin you can EX Spark to cancel out the Dagger Toss which is great. Not to mention you can reflect and also EX Reflect give you back 5% HP so I suggest sitting on meter to help with the life lead portion of the match up. I feel in Shirai you can make some plays but once he gets in B1 range or catches you in the corner (regardless of variation) it can get ugly. Thankfully Cybernetic doesn't have an overhead to be worried about when cornered so its not so bad. Again, Ronin offers us a good reversal at the cost of meter with EX DP so we can escape if Kano tries to re-pressure with B1 strings. Mind you that B13 is a true string that can't be interrupted with armor.

This match is pretty straight forward. It's a tough one but I think its manageable on a lot of levels. Ronin seems better equipped to deal with the projectile game than Lasher or Shirai. Shirai has access to the hard to blockables and can put on some decent pressure so its still a viable choice.

KUNG JIN

This is another one of Takeda's hardest match ups. Jin does EVERYTHING you do but faster and with good range to back it up on top of great stable consistent damage output. Jin is relatively safe on EVERYTHING due to Takeda's already slow normals on top of Jin's safety rendering punishment on unsafe things kind of rough. However, EX Bo Spin is one of the major moves that we CAN punish and fairly hard. The move is -17f and we can indeed punish him fairly hard with meter and just enough without.

Info from hayatei
You can punish EX Bo Spin with a buffered and VERY slight run cancel into f3

If you play Ronin you can full combo punish it the same way using b112 for around 36% damage (you can do 37 or 38% but it's significantly harder to execute) If he hits you from far range you can ALWAYS f3 and ronin b21 punish and it's actually really especially for Ronin since you don't even have to run cancel with that string.

You can also do b212+4 as Ronin, meterless you can do 17% with this, I think blade drop only hits once and you can't combo from it. For some reasons far blade drop goes to the perfect location but it won't go out in combo. If you want to full combo punish him everytime, use b21 blade drop> blade call as your combo starter <- If he hits you from max range the 2+4 misses and if you were close you can't do more than 17% anyway so its better to just go for that.

b112 actually takes too much execution to be worth it imo since you get the same damage from b21 with a LOT less execution required.

The MAJOR problem is punishment, and even if Takeda is in position to punish you have to spend lots of meter to dish it out. Not bad when you consider what you gain but the problem again of Takeda's late game isn't sound vs Jin. His come back potential is high and can open up opponents safely. Double back to the meter usage, you won't have much meter to work with in terms of breakers so you HAVE to choose wisely on how you spend your meter in the match up. So in essence, you have to maintain a life lead of some sort and let Jin make the mistakes. On the flip side, if its in reverse Takeda can't close it out no matter the variation. It's hard to say what variation to play in this match up to be quite frank. I've been using Ronin more and finding that results are a bit better than Shirai Ryu in my area. Primarily on B21 in Ronin, this helps when inside and Recalls help out in neutral. Jin's arrows don't do that much for damage but if you can get an EX Recall or normal Recall in you can force him to relax on the projectiles and get some damage and positioning in the process. Not to mention you still have reflect in Ronin.

Bottom line, this match up is again easily one of his worst. Relying on establishing a life lead each round is a daunting task. Ronin may be the go to from my experiences but feel free to challenge that opinion and find answers in the other variations.

KUNG LAO

So this match is yet another bad one as you may expected. The damage out put from Buzzsaw Lao is relatively low which on one end is ok to take as in Shirai you can out damage him. Problem is that's about it. His damage is low and consistent in Buzzsaw and his ability to keep you in check with Low Hat is a pain. The pressure game is nothing you're not used to if you've played MK9 Lao so its familiar but as Takeda its hard to get started no matter the variation. Low Hat being -6f still won't help fighting back because at some point he'll toss an EX Low Hat leaving him at +5f. Meaning we're stuck hoping to bait any kind of Spin retaliation and taking little consistent damage from 11212 > Low Hat or he confirms into spin.

I've had nothing but trouble in all variations fighting this guy. He can position you where he wants with 21 ender into an EX Low hat for oki and its just hard to deal with. Ronin Recalls help when you get a knockdown but even then his EX Spin advances passed the saber and if you're in range you can potentially get hit. On the flip side if you're not in range he burned a meter and you can play the neutral game again. But as usual the glaring problem with Takeda is no fast footsie tools.

Info from haytei
The armored buzz saw spin punishes the tp cancel of the first hit of 2+4 in the f12 2+4 string, but that's pretty much unsafe in general (in most match ups). Also you don't have time to tp cancel then block if you're in extremely close range after he blocks b21, but you can delay the teleport and full combo punish the spin after so its kinda of a guessing game.

One of the biggest saving graces of this match is when you can actually mount pressure in Ronin you can safely get a saber set in just about every string and Lao cannot punish with EX Spin. This means you can bait him into thinking you'll continue pressure but of course on the flip side if you auto pilot the offense after the set you will lose to EX Spin on a read. Basically you have to bait all the time during pressure and be mindful of his meter so you don't get hit by his reversal. I'll list below the safe saber set strings:

SAFE BLADE DROPS
F12 2+4 (1hit from the 2+4) > Set
F1 2+4 (1hit from the 2+4) > Set
33 > Set
F21 > Set
2 > Set
21 > Set
B21 2+4 > Set
B11 > Set
*Note that Saber Quick Calls are all safe from EX Spin with the exception of D1/D3/1*

Summary, follow the rules of Takeda and keep him out as best you can and try to establish a life lead to force mistakes.

Probably the worst of the Lao variations to fight. Hat Spin being -3 and there being NO pushback when he summons is a HUGE deal because again Takeda's quickest attacks are 11f. Sure you can swing back after the -3 but then they chance an EX spin into 34% and you ask yourself why you didn't bait it. OR he takes the EX Hat Toss route and is +27 on block meaning you're literally at his mercy with whatever he wants to do. Impossible to press a button on him at this stage for obvious reasons. Not to mention that if for whatever reason you try to poke out or miss execution on your reversal you WILL lose 40% or more plus corner carry.

On the positive side, you can meaty his wake ups really well in Ronin and just as good in Lasher and Shirai. Ronin obviously doing meaty Saber toss > Recall will shut down EX Spin. The other two have EX Kunai which works just as well when you hold and release with b2 covering it so the Kunai eats the armor and Lao eats the b2. Also again like vs Buzzsaw you can make pressure safe in Ronin with saber toss and bait them to EX Spin. Tempest can actually punish more strings into set than Buzzsaw I'll list them below:

SAFE BLADE DROPS
F21 > Set
21 > Set
B21 2+4 > Set
B11 > Set (must be done from mid range)
B3 > Set
*Note that Saber Quick Calls are all safe from EX Spin with the exception of D1/D3/1*

The problem in this variation is that no matter how much you space control him, he just needs to land a hit for meterless damage in the 37% range. To top it off, Hat Spin simply shuts down any reversal attempts as the hat is a free meaty that will beat armor and allows Lao to perform any string RELATIVELY risk free. The Hat Spin is the overall biggest problem. If he wants in? Put the shield on and attack be it EX or not. His teleport becomes relatively safe if you don't punish right and even then he can tele with EX and you can't do much but maybe armor through with DP in Ronin. In Shirai EX Flurry isn't going to save Takeda in that situation. HOWEVER you CAN indeed nail a d2 on a regular Hat Spin if you time it properly. Which is why I say its a RELATIVELY SAFE tele.

Info from Zoidberg747
In Tempest he can punish a max range f12 2+4 tele cancel in Shirai Ryu, which is the issue or at least will be when people know the MU. That literally means Takeda can't use b21 in Shirai Ryu (from close range) and f122+4 without getting punished on block.

Either way, in the end this variation is a pure nightmare and if any Lao main is smart they should ALWAYS pick this variation vs Takeda as it just mauls him pretty bad. He can end matches very very quickly. No Bueno.

SONYA

This match is Takeda's absolute worst in my experience. You can only keep her out for so long and then she gets in and it's literally over. Any block string into Military Stance means 50/50 time and it all leads back to the same situation. Sonya b14 string is just too much for Takeda to deal with as it starts the 50/50 initially and again it just goes down hill from there. If you get cornered, which in practice is a high probability, you just lose the game. All the MSS options are just too hard to read consistently and literally require you to guess your HP away. OR the Sonya takes a chance and reads you with an EX Parry and goes into big damage and the SAME 50/50 SITUATION AGAIN. Let's also put the XRay in play and you get twice the damage either way on top of the XRay parrying every physical attack, throws, lows, jump ins and is active for quite a long time. NRS plz...

Sonya NEVER has to worry about breakers as she'll ALWAYS have meter because she's in your face pressing buttons. Stamina? Not a problem she doesn't need to run as she can use Dive Kick as a means of movement till Stamina regenerates. It's really hard to say what to do when all her buttons are faster and she mixes up freely on block and oki.

Covert Ops is the second worse of the Sonya variations. The 50/50 situations are just too much for our hero to handle with little disrespect options. Ronin might be the go to for the Recall in neutral

Aka Dronya. This is the worst of the 3 to deal with. The drone activation literally makes all her approaches safe from any character retaliating against her as the projectile trades if you hit her. So the 50/50 can be unsafe in Covert Ops? Well in Special Forces you just hold it all free of charge. You get mauled the same way on top of safe approaches? Neutral in general is just a tough sale in this matchup. So basically its Covert with more safety.

Ok so this is the weakest of the 3 and yet it still gives Takeda a hard time but its more managable. When Sonya has to restock her grenades is a critical time when you can strike and start your game. You can do the Takeda dance in all variations but you have to do it aggressively when she uses her 'nades up. She's also forced to use her meter a bit more when she doesn't have her 'nades restocked for EX Drone Toss. You can wait out the nade tosses in pressure and again should she even attempt to restock off a string or neutral you go in and go hard. The 50/50's are a lot less but her wake up game is now a bit of a problem with the Wake 'n' Bake. Good part about this is that she can't do it without a grenade stocked.

All in all its a more managable matchup with a few glaring weakness for Sonya that you can exploit. By no means is it easier but you can deal with most of it.

Zoidberg747 · May 29, 2015

I appreciate the effort, but I gotta say:

All variations need to be discussed. The most popular variations are not always the best, and you could have the best variation be a better MU than the other lesser variations. At the very least you should say which variation you are talking about.

I'll discuss the actual numbers tomorrow since my local is tonight and will be the first time back with Takeda. Will try to get in some MU experience to give my thoughts.

CrimsonShadow · May 29, 2015

Let's stay away from numbers for now and just discuss the actual matchups themselves. It's far too early to have a number for every character. Plus it's variation-dependent.

Don't want to go down that injustice road of arguing nitpicks when nobody knows anything.

ZigZag · May 29, 2015

I don't think you're playing a good Kenshi, how in the world do you beat him 6-4?
Even with the Shirai Ryu teleport (which is super baitable) it's not a fun matchup.

st9rm · May 30, 2015

Kensou said:
I think that's a decent start. However a few are listed a bit off. Will edit this post soon with my opinion. =D

So my opinion on matches I've played thus far as both Ronin and Shirai Ryu

CASSIE

Her mixup and quick buttons are what make this match up tough. Much like most Takeda matches you want to keep her at a set distance (in Ronin b1/d3/d4/b2 spacing and in Shirai Ryu b2 spacing) for the most part. She's too dangerous up close to try and contest her outside of maybe throwing. In Ronin you can keep her in check on wakeup with Blade Recalls to stuff her armor moves and force some respect. Shirai its tougher but can be done with EX Kunai (HOLD) > b2 which costs meter but is really effective and damaging.

Make sure to punish her Getaway Flip with 44 or micro dash 44 into the most damaging combo you know from that starter as its a ton. In Ronin you can net 37% with 1 bar and iirc Shirai Ryu can do the same if not more. In Ronin even though you can reflect her projectile be careful that her startup for it is fast and hard to react to unlike the other NON gun users.

All in all for now once again, you follow the no.1 rule of Takeda...don't let them in and mind your spacing.

D'VORAH

I think this is one of Takeda's worst personally as once she gets in her quick buttons maul him too badly for him to get much of anything started. Ronin its bad but you have EX Shoryu to rely on while Shirai Ryu has EX Fist Flurry which armor loses to committed strings. And in D'Vorah's case, b1 string starter rocks this freely meaning she can do this all day to Shirai Ryu with no worry of wake up options AFAIK. She has no wake up options that are worth worrying about. But when it does happen her EX Stab is what it'll be, and its not hard to punish but they'll put it out there to keep you on your toes.

What really sets this match off as one of Takeda's worst is that she has everything possible to shut him down. Speaking on speed, dmg, range, run cancels and an amazing inside game that Takeda just has a hard time dealing with period. Her f22 string starts in 22f while Takeda b2 is 24f with more range. Again, if you factor in her overhead is 2f faster ON TOP of her ability to close the gaps on Takeda in a flash its just down hill. What makes matters worse is that you have NO quick button to press to attempt to disrespect and get her off. Meaning without meter in ANY variation for that matter gets shutdown when your back is in the corner.

Long story short, mid neutral don't whiff or get mauled to the corner by run cancel pressure. In the corner, its rough with no meter.

Just about the same problems as Swarm Queen but with slightly less damage and she can force re-stand with the Bug Spray. What makes matters worse is that ANY attack with a bug limb inflicts poison damage aka damage over time. This means even basic pokes like d3, d4 and even f22 have this property. Unfortunately it stacks making her footsies just that much more deadly and making her end winning potential way higher due to the stacking. This means trading in footsies is not going to end well even in the best case scenarios in neutral unless its a round ender and you can take the damage.

She can also abuse the bug spray in block strings due to her being able to hold and release at will. At max hold its combo punishable however if you don't react to the release be it early, mid, late, mid late, immediate release, you may not get the combo punish. In most cases I personally tend to aim for a d2 punish as its the fastest thing you can get outside of a throw attempt which both are punishes but the throw can be tech'd.

Bottom line, her footsies are improved and she mauls at a slower pace. Damage over time helps her seal the deal for her end game situations.

ERMAC

In this match you can play your normal game with Takeda in Both Ronin and Shirai Ryu however I'd go out on a limb and say Ronin has a bit more of an advantage over Shirai due to the reflecting of 3Soul Soul Ball. Ronin's reflect on 3Soul Soul Ball will net a jump in combo that leads to 41% with one meter and 30% with no meter. With all this it makes the reflect game really strong in the neutral game and forcing Ermac to play a bit more risky.

One of his major strings f21d2 can be interrupted with armor of if you want to play it safe then back dash away. However keep in mind if you back dash you get no punish but you gain the neutral space again. Also when he gets his mixup game going if you block f4 > Soul Ball/EX Tele he's -23f on Soul Ball and Tele he's -17f so you net 44 as a punish into the most damage you can in any variation. Same goes for if you block b3 into the above you punish the same. Of course its not easy but the best part is nailing a 44 into big damage if you block correctly in his mixup game.

It seems relatively even in Shirai and a fairly SLIGHT advantage in Ronin only due to the damage you get from a Soul Ball reflect. Overall its tough in some spots, but for the most part doesn't feel too difficult.

KUNG JIN

This is another one of Takeda's hardest match ups. Jin does EVERYTHING you do but faster and with good range to back it up on top of great stable consistent damage output. Jin is relatively safe on EVERYTHING due to Takeda's already slow normals on top of Jin's safety rendering punishment on unsafe things an extreme task. EX Bo Spin is one of the major examples of something we can't punish what so ever no matter the variation. The move is -17f but we have nothing fast enough to get to him making this wake up practically free of charge. But he spent meter how is it free? Simple. The push back is a no brainer right? Top it off with you being back in a prime neutral position for him to poke at you and you can't do much to retaliate. Granted you can take a risk with armor Punch Flurry and that's fine. Its just the damage + corner carry Jin gains doesn't out weigh the risk you're going to take on it. Might as well accept the neutral and try to find another way to do damage.

The MAJOR problem is no punishment, and even if Takeda is in position to punish you have to spend lots of meter to dish it out. Not bad when you consider what you gain but the problem again of Takeda's late game isn't sound vs Jin. His come back potential is high and can open up opponents safely. Double back to the meter usage, you won't have much meter to work with in terms of breakers so you HAVE to choose wisely on how you spend your meter in the match up. So in essence, you have to maintain a life lead of some sort and let Jin make the mistakes. On the flip side, if its in reverse Takeda can't close it out no matter the variation. It's hard to say what variation to play in this match up to be quite frank. I've been using Ronin more and finding that results are a bit better than Shirai Ryu in my area. Primarily on B21 in Ronin, this helps when inside and Recalls help out in neutral. Jin's arrows don't do that much for damage but if you can get an EX Recall or normal Recall in you can force him to relax on the projectiles and get some damage and positioning in the process. Not to mention you still have reflect in Ronin.

Bottom line, this match up is again easily one of his worst. Not being able to punish properly is a problem and relying on establishing a life lead each round is a daunting task. Ronin may be the go to from my experiences but feel free to challenge that opinion and find answers in the other variations.

very nice write up

GiM | ZigZag said:
I don't think you're playing a good Kenshi, how in the world do you beat him 6-4?
Even with the Shirai Ryu teleport (which is super baitable) it's not a fun matchup.

i haven't played really good kenshi's yet, number's might change ofc
i also thing his (ex) tornado kick is a tricky gadget in this MU

played a really decent offline sub zero unbreakable yesterday, and i must say, that his parry can shut down a lot of takeda's tools
his b2 etc all get stuffed by his parry
if you bait it though, you can get a full combo punish

hayatei · May 30, 2015

Kensou said:
KUNG JIN

This is another one of Takeda's hardest match ups. Jin does EVERYTHING you do but faster and with good range to back it up on top of great stable consistent damage output. Jin is relatively safe on EVERYTHING due to Takeda's already slow normals on top of Jin's safety rendering punishment on unsafe things an extreme task. EX Bo Spin is one of the major examples of something we can't punish what so ever no matter the variation. The move is -17f but we have nothing fast enough to get to him making this wake up practically free of charge. But he spent meter how is it free? Simple. The push back is a no brainer right? Top it off with you being back in a prime neutral position for him to poke at you and you can't do much to retaliate. Granted you can take a risk with armor Punch Flurry and that's fine. Its just the damage + corner carry Jin gains doesn't out weigh the risk you're going to take on it. Might as well accept the neutral and try to find another way to do damage.

The MAJOR problem is no punishment, and even if Takeda is in position to punish you have to spend lots of meter to dish it out. Not bad when you consider what you gain but the problem again of Takeda's late game isn't sound vs Jin. His come back potential is high and can open up opponents safely. Double back to the meter usage, you won't have much meter to work with in terms of breakers so you HAVE to choose wisely on how you spend your meter in the match up. So in essence, you have to maintain a life lead of some sort and let Jin make the mistakes. On the flip side, if its in reverse Takeda can't close it out no matter the variation. It's hard to say what variation to play in this match up to be quite frank. I've been using Ronin more and finding that results are a bit better than Shirai Ryu in my area. Primarily on B21 in Ronin, this helps when inside and Recalls help out in neutral. Jin's arrows don't do that much for damage but if you can get an EX Recall or normal Recall in you can force him to relax on the projectiles and get some damage and positioning in the process. Not to mention you still have reflect in Ronin.

Bottom line, this match up is again easily one of his worst. Not being able to punish properly is a problem and relying on establishing a life lead each round is a daunting task. Ronin may be the go to from my experiences but feel free to challenge that opinion and find answers in the other variations.

You can punish ex bo spin with a buffered and VERY slight run cancel into f3

If you play Ronin you can full combo punish it the same way using b112 for around 36% damage (you can do 37 or 38% but it's significantly harder to execute)

You can also do b212+4 as Ronin, meterless you can do 17% with this, I think blade drop only hits once and you can't combo from it. For some reasons far blade drop goes to the perfect location but it won't go out in combo

Zoidberg747 · May 30, 2015

I cant see Kung Lao being an even matchup or in our favor, merely because the armored spin punishes tele cancels and armors all the gaps. You have to be super on point with spacing and safety in that MU.

hayatei · May 30, 2015

Zoidberg747 said:
I cant see Kung Lao being an even matchup or in our favor, merely because the armored spin punishes tele cancels and armors all the gaps. You have to be super on point with spacing and safety in that MU.

the armored buzz saw spin punishes the tp cancel of the first hit of 2+4, but that's pretty much unsafe in general (in most match ups)

also you dont have time to tp cancel then block if you're in extremely close range after he blocks b21, but you can delayed teleport and full combo punish the spin after so its kinda a guessing game

Zoidberg747 · May 30, 2015

hayatei said:
the armored buzz saw spin punishes the tp cancel of the first hit of 2+4, but that's pretty much unsafe in general (in most match ups)

also you dont have time to tp cancel then block if you're in extremely close range after he blocks b21, but you can delayed teleport and full combo punish the spin after so its kinda a guessing game

In tempest he can punish a max range 2+4 tele cancel, which is the issue or at least will be when people know the MU.

hayatei · May 30, 2015

Zoidberg747 said:
In tempest he can punish a max range 2+4 tele cancel, which is the issue or at least will be when people know the MU.

ya that sucks

that literally means takeda can't use b21 (from close range) and f122+4 without getting punished on block

Kensou · May 30, 2015

hayatei said:
You can punish ex bo spin with a buffered and VERY slight run cancel into f3

If you play Ronin you can full combo punish it the same way using b112 for around 36% damage (you can do 37 or 38% but it's significantly harder to execute)

You can also do b212+4 as Ronin, meterless you can do 17% with this, I think blade drop only hits once and you can't combo from it. For some reasons far blade drop goes to the perfect location but it won't go out in combo

The EX LOW Spin is indeed punishable by those things for the most part, you are correct. I'll update my tab with this information. The other one with the overhead ender you can definitely micro dash into F3 but the timing is super strict. Double back the punish is only if you're right next to him so the pushback isn't as bad. From mid range to tip range you won't get the F3. The problem remains that even if you CAN punish him he can just do it again a be like "LAWL! I'M STILL SAFE! DIDDLY DERP~!" So it's still a hassle to punish unfortunately. If they reduced the pushback we'd get punishes always, but until that time...#sadboyz

hayatei · May 30, 2015

Kensou said:
The EX LOW Spin is indeed punishable by those things for the most part, you are correct. I'll update my tab with this information. The other one with the overhead ender you can definitely micro dash into F3 but the timing is super strict. Double back the punish is only if you're right next to him so the pushback isn't as bad. From mid range to tip range you won't get the F3. The problem remains that even if you CAN punish him he can just do it again a be like "LAWL! I'M STILL SAFE! DIDDLY DERP~!" So it's still a hassle to punish unfortunately. If they reduced the pushback we'd get punishes always, but until that time...#sadboyz

I was talking about the ex overhead spin lol

if he hits you from far range you can ALWAYS f3 and ronin b21 punish and it's actually really easy all you have to do is practice it for 30 min especially for ronin since you don't even have to run cancel with that string

also just from testing right now, if you want to full combo punish him everytime, use b21 blade drop blade call as your combo starter <- if he hits you from max range the 2+4 misses and if you were close you can't do more than 17% anyway so its better to just go for that

b112 actually takes too much execution to be worth it imo since you get the same damage from b21 with a LOT less execution required

Kensou · May 30, 2015

hayatei said:
I was talking about the ex overhead spin lol

if he hits you from far range you can ALWAYS f3 and ronin b21 punish and it's actually really easy all you have to do is practice it for 30 min especially for ronin since you don't even have to run cancel with that string

also just from testing right now, if you want to full combo punish him everytime, use b21 blade drop blade call as your combo starter <- if he hits you from max range the 2+4 misses and if you were close you can't do more than 17% anyway so its better to just go for that

b112 actually takes too much execution to be worth it imo since you get the same damage from b21 with a LOT less execution required

I'm silly, you're right man you can punish with the b21 on both. It seems pretty consistent for the most part, and you're right you can't always get the 2+4 but we'll take what we can get. If we have meter we can nail 32% with b21 > ex flurry > run > 44 > dp. Great corner carry and good dmg. Gonna edit the information I posted and naturally cite your info. Good find. We gotta try to make this character stronger lol. We just gotta grind the tech.

Cheers

Zoidberg747 · May 30, 2015

hayatei said:
ya that sucks

that literally means takeda can't use b21 (from close range) and f122+4 without getting punished on block

Yeah that might be a MU I see Takeda mains needing a sub or alt for. Hope im wrong.

Kensou · May 30, 2015

Steadily updating my post with information. Please feel free to add anything. Also considering remaking this thread with the information in the first post. If the original poster doesn't mind then I will do so.

GuerillaTactix · May 30, 2015

CrimsonShadow said:
Let's stay away from numbers for now and just discuss the actual matchups themselves. It's far too early to have a number for every character. Plus it's variation-dependent.

Don't want to go down that injustice road of arguing nitpicks when nobody knows anything.

I couldn't imagine giving my numbers at this point. I'm LITERALLY still trying to master his pressure and mix up game before I can say I consistently have a plan in a mu. I think MU numbers are premature no matter who you are or what character you use..

GuerillaTactix · May 30, 2015

GiM | ZigZag said:
I don't think you're playing a good Kenshi, how in the world do you beat him 6-4?
Even with the Shirai Ryu teleport (which is super baitable) it's not a fun matchup.

Ok.. I told myself I wouldn't debate MU numbers and I wont but my curiosity has peaked.. Do you feel kenshi wins the MU? 6-4 doesn't seem outlandish at all. His specials are very baitable and on a read they are easy to punish with a lot of damage.. So what do you know?

Btw not being combative. What you say may make me look into kenshi a little more so this is strictly Q&A.

GuerillaTactix · May 30, 2015

Zoidberg747 said:
I cant see Kung Lao being an even matchup or in our favor, merely because the armored spin punishes tele cancels and armors all the gaps. You have to be super on point with spacing and safety in that MU.

The mind games have to be in your control from start to finish and if Kung Jin gets the knock down its hellish.. Won't say a MU number but I think for a Takeda to play this MU 5-5 they need to be masters of execution and reads because King Jins tools EASILY break up Takeda's default plan.

ZigZag · May 30, 2015

GuerillaTactix said:
Ok.. I told myself I wouldn't debate MU numbers and I wont but my curiosity has peaked.. Do you feel kenshi wins the MU? 6-4 doesn't seem outlandish at all. His specials are very baitable and on a read they are easy to punish with a lot of damage.. So what do you know?

Btw not being combative. What you say may make me look into kenshi a little more so this is strictly Q&A.

A Kenshi should want to keep you at full screen, if he does that your long range normals are too slow to punish his specials, he can interrupt most of them with Flurry, he also has a similar neutral game to Takeda leaving the close encounters down to who messes up first really, neither one can punish the other.

Problem is Kenshi nulifies B21 completely by just throwing out Flurry simply, I think Takeda is forced to use quite a bit of meter in this matchup if he's to beat through the superior spacing game Kenshi has.
Errm I'll record matches with Falkunn and show you how we run it down, I primarily use Lasher these days but Shirai Ryu was no better before really.
Oh and his Air to airs kick Takedas ass his reach is pretty insane, so if you find yourself jumping at one another you're probably going to lose that trade.

Immortal Kombat · May 30, 2015

I've mained takeda from day one. I've used goro as takedas 4th variation from week 2 lol. This list is a bit interesting to me because imo there is only 2 factors that make any mu hard for takeda.
1. Advancing armor
If they have it, they are already at an advantage simply by this alone. It's not the end of the world but you have to force yourself to hold back your pressure to bait stuff out. This alone forces you to stop attacking sometimes.
2. Frames up close
It's not the end of the world if all your opponents moves are plus on block.
What's worse is when your opponent has decent frame advantage with fast starting normals. Because of how slow takedas normals are, and how bad the hit box is on the 8 frame uppercut he does have, this is a big problem. This is why most takedas hate jax. IMO characters like raiden pose the same threat.

I'm not gonna go over the mu numbers I agree/don't agree with but, I will say I disagree with goro. I have zero problems beating takeda with goro.

Zoidberg747 · May 30, 2015

GiM | ZigZag said:
A Kenshi should want to keep you at full screen, if he does that your long range normals are too slow to punish his specials, he can interrupt most of them with Flurry, he also has a similar neutral game to Takeda leaving the close encounters down to who messes up first really, neither one can punish the other.

Problem is Kenshi nulifies B21 completely by just throwing out Flurry simply, I think Takeda is forced to use quite a bit of meter in this matchup if he's to beat through the superior spacing game Kenshi has.
Errm I'll record matches with Falkunn and show you how we run it down, I primarily use Lasher these days but Shirai Ryu was no better before really.
Oh and his Air to airs kick Takedas ass his reach is pretty insane, so if you find yourself jumping at one another you're probably going to lose that trade.

Uh you cant punish his specials but you can do a dash and now you are in F1 2+4 or f12 2+4 range.

Nullifying b21 is not that big of a deal as it is nullified in a lot of MUs(you can backdash/armor the followups much easier and it is slower). You don't really have to use meter unless in punishes, maybe an EX tele on a read. But if he keeps flurrying you can jump over one on a read and get an air spear for a hard knockdown or an EX for a punish.

If you keep losing to air to airs bait one and do air tele.

If you use max range f12 2+4 pressure this MU isnt that bad at all. If you do it max ranged none of his armor moves will hit you IIRC(Rising Karma for Balanced, Overhead spin for Kenjistu, Maybe Armor Demons punish it?) So you can pretty much throw kunai and he has to respect it, and anytime you block one of his specials you get to position yourself at the best range.

I dont have a number for the MU but I think you are greatly oversimplifying it. He definitely doesnt lose it very badly.

Edit: Now that I think about it I am pretty sure you can punish some of his moves with run f12 2+4. Ill have to test but if so thats an easy 24% any time you block one of his specials.

ZigZag · May 30, 2015

Zoidberg747 said:
Uh you cant punish his specials but you can do a dash and now you are in F1 2+4 or f12 2+4 range.

Nullifying b21 is not that big of a deal as it is nullified in a lot of MUs(you can backdash/armor the followups much easier and it is slower). You don't really have to use meter unless in punishes, maybe an EX tele on a read. But if he keeps flurrying you can jump over one on a read and get an air spear for a hard knockdown or an EX for a punish.

If you keep losing to air to airs bait one and do air tele.

If you use max range f12 2+4 pressure this MU isnt that bad at all. If you do it max ranged none of his armor moves will hit you IIRC(Rising Karma for Balanced, Overhead spin for Kenjistu, Maybe Armor Demons punish it?) So you can pretty much throw kunai and he has to respect it, and anytime you block one of his specials you get to position yourself at the best range.

I dont have a number for the MU but I think you are greatly oversimplifying it. He definitely doesnt lose it very badly.

Edit: Now that I think about it I am pretty sure you can punish some of his moves with run f12 2+4. Ill have to test but if so thats an easy 24% any time you block one of his specials.

Alot of this will depend where you are, at full screen you totally have to walk it in still like anyone would for sure.
Lemme know what you can do against his shit when you test it

GuerillaTactix · May 30, 2015

GiM | ZigZag said:
A Kenshi should want to keep you at full screen, if he does that your long range normals are too slow to punish his specials, he can interrupt most of them with Flurry, he also has a similar neutral game to Takeda leaving the close encounters down to who messes up first really, neither one can punish the other.

Problem is Kenshi nulifies B21 completely by just throwing out Flurry simply, I think Takeda is forced to use quite a bit of meter in this matchup if he's to beat through the superior spacing game Kenshi has.
Errm I'll record matches with Falkunn and show you how we run it down, I primarily use Lasher these days but Shirai Ryu was no better before really.
Oh and his Air to airs kick Takedas ass his reach is pretty insane, so if you find yourself jumping at one another you're probably going to lose that trade.

Hold on you primarily use lasher? That's far more interesting than match up discussions. What kind of tech are you holding onto that I don't know about? Everyone's using Shirai Ryu and Ronin. I've been meaning to learn lasher but no one has given me a reason too.. What do you like about it over the other two?

Zoidberg747 · May 30, 2015

GuerillaTactix said:
Hold on you primarily use lasher? That's far more interesting than match up discussions. What kind of tech are you holding onto that I don't know about? Everyone's using Shirai Ryu and Ronin. I've been meaning to learn lasher but no one has given me a reason too.. What do you like about it over the other two?

The main thing it has is better defensive options. EX whip flurry is a great wakeup and a great way to armor through string gaps.

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